Pretty basic really,

but if any of you pay any attention to my posts, you'd know i sorta took my roll out in the spring and stopped playing cash games.

i was really focused on just playing MTT's for fun.

I soon realised, after winning the FCP forum challenge, that i'm decent at SnG's.

lately i've been playing the Poker Classic qualifiers, and have a ridiculous amount of 2nd's, a hand ful of 1st's which advance me, but then i thought.

why am i not playing these for income?

so the goal is the build myself up another decent BR like i had from playing SnG's.

I'll keep you all posted. so far i'm off to a good start, and can contribute this thread to that fact

3 sng's. (this start was 1 @ 10.00 2@ 30.00) I'm going to focus on the 20.00 though

2 wins
1 2nd.

goal is to play 97 more.

I want to have this completed by November 1st.

cheers

GL to you sir..Since you are going to be playing a fair amount of them, you should post some interesting hands in Tourney and here, since they get like 2 new topics a day..Or even a kind of diary of a sng you thought you played really well, where you post every hand you either gain or lose a decent amount of chips, and giving an short explanation of each..Some guys have done that w/ MTTs and I find it interesting to read, although time consuming to post...I need something to keep me busy at work!

I actually planned to already but Phucking FCP wouldnt open the history

it said "not available, blah blah" anyone know why or have that happen before

Royal,

I've been playing them exclusively since March.
Maybe 5 MTT"s and a couple 3-5 table SNG's.
Mostly 6 Man, about 3:1 6 to 10 Man.

Anyway, I find the 10 Man around the $20 buy in to be nitty.
We're 6 handed at 100/200, Ave Stack: 3300.
8 handed at 50/100, etc.
Not like the ole days.
that's on Party though

The 6 Man allow more hands per level.

keep it up, nice start!

Thanks Brother,

How many have u played since march? are u off cash games totally?

for now I am.
I had switched to limit exclusively circa Sep 05, after being a net loser at NL Cash/SnG's/Omaha/ etc. It appealed to me as a steady income generator with all kinds of *neat* math applications. Oh, and less risky. But alas, it got dull and I was ready for a change. I don't play for any decent stakes anyway. Figured without much more study and effort my Limit win rate was bound to leveloff/go down as others improved. * Dull is the wrong word. Better to just say I could consume my life trying to analyze the game and was at a point where that was not the best use of my time

I've played ~880 SnG's since restarting them in March. Read HoH2, coupled with more experience overall since the last time I played them.

modest success.

10 Man ITM: 39%
6 Man ITM: 42%

ROI ~ 13% for both
If you run the numbers, it becomes quite clear that I do not get 1st enough!

Yeah, my firsts are too low too. I've got almost one and a half times as many seconds as firsts. I was going to make some big long post in the tourney strat forum the other day going through the whole HU section of a SnG to try to get some help with my HU game, and I got through about 25 hands before I accidentally deleted 2/3 of it. I was so pissed off that I just gave up on the whole thing.

actually, its all i play. sngs from $5, 10. i used these sngs to build my bankroll. then i started playing some 5, 10, 20 and 30 dollar mtt and actually had a good run a few weeks ago. however, my intention of playing poker is not to turn pro; its purely entertainment to me. the money i won in the those mtt have since been withdrawn, but left a few hundred. since that run, i've now hit a wall; can't win the races or coin flips and even get rivered to be busted out of the tourneys. i'm back to playing 5 dollar sngs either full or sh. i don't mind grinding out about an hour or so to net $19.50. it actually adds if i keep placing in the money.

for me, the problem with a bigger br than what i'm used to is i get too aggressive in the mtt tourneys. i start playing hands that i would normally fold cuz i know if i get busted, i just try again. anyways, for me personally, ABC poker is my comfort zone and so are the low sng tables.

But aren't you one that argues for playing for 1st?

who is that ?

1.5 more... wow.

I"m 45/55. 1st to 2nds

( on a 5 - 1sts streak in my last 5 6Man Tournies w00t w00t! )

Well, I'm certainly not playing for third. Here's my stats since I started playing $77-$215.

Total tournaments played: 288

Places received:
1st: 32
2nd: 46
3rd: 22
4th: 17
5th: 20
6th: 18
7th: 28
8th: 41
9th: 38
10th: 26

ITM: 34.72%
ROI: 9.75%

So you see, my overall strategy of busting out early or building a big stack and getting to the end works, as I almost never finish 3rd through 6th. It's just that my HU play's been killing me. A couple things I noticed that I've been working on are that I need to reraise more PF when I'm in the BB, because people lay down a lot of hands that they raise with, and since you can't be pushed off your hand once you're all-in, you lose less equity when someone has a hand that you would on just an initial raise.

My other problem is that I tend to stick with hands too much post-flop. I think stuff like, "OK, I've got middle pair and we're HU with relatively short stacks. I've got to go with it" instead of "This guy's playing tight; he's not gonna bluff me here. I need to fold". The other day, I folded top pair HU for the first time in a while, and I was quite proud of myself. My opponent showed an overpair, but I ended up losing the SnG anyway.

One more thing is that I think maybe I should be incorporating limping on the button more. My general strategy is to raise or fold most of the time, and then limp once every 20 hands or so with crap, representing a big pair so I can steal. That works fine if the blinds are high, but when we get HU at the 200/400 level on Party (which happens fairly often), I think I need to start limping close to 1/3 of my hands, so I don't have to fold or overcommit myself so much.

I don't know why but I always thought that sng's were for people who couldn't cut it in the cash games, Maybe Im wrong, but lets say you buy in to the $22 sng on party 10 man, and you get a 1st.

You only pockted $78, and that is for first. Second only gets you $38 and third is a measly $18. Doesn't that suck? LOL, seriously, get good at limit cash games and you can make way more. And cashing in these things isn't the easiest, there are many times when you can run bad.

At a 3-6 level, playing 3 tables with 75 hands/hour(225hands/hour total) making 1.8BB/100 hands would be $24.30 an hour. Not bad. That would mean that you are getting BETTER than a third place finish, every hour. And 1.8BB/100 hands is just running ok. When you're running good, you can double it

P.S. Yes I know about running bad, and variance, 1.8BB is considered with variance, thats why I said running "ok."

Corp,

Royal plays cash games as well.

Your example though was quite silly

$22 SnG can easily be pllayed with a $600 roll

3-6 should not be played with less than $1800.

Yeah, I thought that, but the rake is just so terrible in the sngs. I just thought that sng's were for poor people who sucked at poker, lol.

they have $500 buy in SnG's

they require a differnt skill
but yeah, the upside potential is lower for strong players
I play them exclusivesly now for fun and lower variance cash.

Yeah, I know they have the $500 sng's, but if you had a roll to support that then you DEFINTELY should be playing a big cash game, like 30-60 maybe, or something. But yeah, my point still stands, SNGS are MOSTLY for poor idiots who suck at poor.

NOT ALL, I am sure you and the OP know what youre doing and you are there to exploit the other poor donkeys, but most SNG's are there for the poor donkeys of poker.


P.S. YES, I used to be a poor donkey like 85% of the sng players out there, and yes I used to donate. Now, I dominate the cash games.

Exactly, which is why they can be easy money and used to build a br to play higher limits. Does suck when you run bad though

are you talking about e people who make money playing these?

I don't disagree that Cash games take more "pure poker" skils and offer more upside (unless you are a machine and 16 table SnG's

some folks like me, play poker for fun and not promarily as income and SnG's are les stressful and lwer variance
I used to play 2/4 Limit and had a solid win rate.

I'm sure I"ll go back to them

But see, this is my problem with SNG's. I almost always get my money in with the best hand and get outdraw on, very sickly. Like AA vs 66 oR AK vs AJ, or KK vs 77. I know it happens to everyone, but when that happens in a cash game I just keep playing.

I am not OUT because of some donkey call where he gets lucky. In a cash game, the money ALL comes back to me. But in an sng I could sit there and waste a good 30-40min and get a 4th place and want to kill someone LOL. CASH GAMES FTMFW!




No, not at all, like I said, Im sure people like you and the OP are winning players at SNG's, but you are losing money in the long run by NOT playing the cash games. Like you said, the cash games are more prof. in the long run.

I know there are plenty of machine e-grinders out there that can whoop up on sng's, but Im just saying that if they learned how to kill the cash games they would probably make more. And if a player is good enough to win at sng's then I am also sure he could adopt a winning strategy in cash games.

So basically I'm just saying that sng's are for poor donkeys, UNLESS you are successful and good at them. In which case you should probaby STILL be playing cash games instead.

How are they lower variance.

They concentrate the results into large payments for the first 3 places rather than gradually paying all a fraction.


As for how much there is to win - i dont think that there's a big difference between SNGs and cash games. Im also not sure how to draw an equivalency between stakes. What buyin has comparable ROR to 2/4LHE? Or similarly, what stakes has a comparable ROR to $20 sngs? You'd have to first come up with equivalent winrates to calculate that... and i have no idea how you'd go about doing that.

guess, I don't know.
Seems like it to me.

This is just your own strategy. I am a better short handed tournament player than full table, and so I usually try to survive to 4 or 5 handed, then bust some skulls. Remember, any money is better than no money. And with increasing blinds...getting to say 4500 by risking a bust early seems less productive than playing safe, and winning a couple hands late to get to that same 4500. I think if you focus on improving your shorthanded play, your ROI will go up, because you will be able to sneak wins as well as finish 2nd and 3rd more often (with some 4ths and 5ths too).

busting early does save you 20-45 minutes though.
increasing your $/hr. which is the most important stat.

I tend to hardly ever finish early and do play to cash and thus get plenty of 3rds in 6 Man and 4-6th in 10 man.

But my question has always been, how much more likely are you to cash/place first by taking chances early, vs the risk.

I don't agree with what corporation was saying with regard to losing with his AA v. 66 in a SNG. IF you get all your money in with AA and someone is calling you with 66 and you lose with that you lose a whole buy-in v. just the cost of the entry to the SNG. And in a SNG you can join another instantly just like reloading in a cash came.

Seems like your logic is flawed, and I was offended (not really, but yes) that SNGs are "for poor donkeys who suck at poker" comment....you really gave no evidence to back up the claim and you seem generally pretty ignorant, regardless of whether or not you are "crushing" the cash games you play in.

Well, most people that play the SNG's ARE poor dumb donkeys that have no roll or money management skills, and they usually are trying to win it just to make a roll. I didn't say all, I said most. Maybe you aren't one of these poor donkeys, or maybe you are. I'm guessing you like the SNG's, and what I was saying about playing a SNG is that it's a waste of time to ME because I can get the money in good and get busted out. All because of one stupid suckout. And yes, I have played a decent amount of SNG's.

And just because of that ONE bad beat, after batting down to 4 or 5 handed I get nothing, and I lose the buy in. I'd rather be sitting in the cash game with these donkeys so that I could CONSTANTLY punish them for making foolish calls and/or suckouts. If they win a pot off me like that fine, but I'm taking it all back in a few minutes, or hours if it has to be. I just stopped liking the idea of taking a bad beat and not winnin **** for 45minutes of work when I couldve been playing a cash game and making something.

Do you multi-table cash games? Have you ever lost? You don't always make money. I know you know this.

If people are playing SNG as their main means of poker income, I guarentee you they aren't playing 1 at a time. Probably 3 to 4, and more if they can do so optimally.

- Jordan

That's strange because you have only played 1 $10 SNG on Fulltilt, which you lost by the way.

So you say that you have played a lot of SNGs, on which site would this be?

LMAO. Where to begin. First of all, Full Tilt is the worst poker site EVER for limit cash games, even with the dumb rakeback. I never play that terrible site. Second, I am well aware that there was a SNG played and also well aware that I lost, thanks. It was $11. My BR is over 3k. Didn't hurt me too bad, I think. And as for the site I do play on, it is Party Poker, if you must know.

well its already over.

I checked an old account and saw about 30 bucks in it, for fun i sat at cash games while playing the SnG's

since the start of this experiment i turned the 30 into 1800.00 and i've realised again why i enjoy playing cash games.

sooo.... adding the 1800 to my original BR I'm going to go back to playing 1/2 and 2/4 NL


thanks for the orginal support.

nice.
$30 to $1800 from cash games, right?
How about the SNG's ?

***********

the SnG's started great, like i said before 2 1st and a 2nd, then i went

2 - DNF's

1 - 1st

1 - 2nd

and by that time my cash game play was up over 500.00 (Tiger Gaming) so I stopped the SnG's and started multi tabling again.

It has been a sick sick run to turn that 30 that fast. Ill be the 1st to admitt i didnt expect or even try, I gambled a lot and jumped to 2/4 NL as soon as i could.

This is silly. You could just as easily lose the equivalent from your BR over 45 minutes of limit play if you have a bad run of cards (or go on tilt). Variance bites everyone in the *** at some point: good cash players, good SNG players, and good MTT players (not that these categories are mutually exclusive).

I currently have two different bankrolls...a limit HE BR (which is used mostly to bonus whore) and an SNG/MTT BR. My ROI with my limit BR is currently much higher than my SNG/MTT BR, but that could change with the flip of a switch if I experience some good variance at one of the large MTTs. I find the limit games provide more gravy, while the tournaments are more fun. I'm sure this is just a personality thing, and there are people who find the opposite is true.

BTW, most of the people who play cash games are also donkeys with poor BR management skills and a weak grasp of poker theory. I've had sessions where AA-QQ and AK lose to any and all combinations of cards imaginable, because of bad postflop (and sometimes preflop) luck. Fortunately, luck evens out and good play tends to favour the strong player over time. The same bad opponent calls that make you money over the long run in cash games make SNG/MTT players money over the long run. That money just comes in more discrete packages (especially for good MTT players).

Exactly my point. But in a SNG if they donk out and river a big hand you go busto and you're done, gotta start another one. Just imagine a poker game where there are 10 guy sitting there with there with their own cash in front of them...

Imagine that 7-9 of them are COMPLETE donks that litearlly give away money to you every pot, and if they DO suck out, the money stays there, you don't "disappear" and turn into a chair. Infact, you get to stay there and eventually get all your money back! I wish they had a poker game like this. Oh wait, they do! Its the cash games at Party!

lol corporation. i didnt know you were stupid =/

QFT!

SnG's are as easy as the player makes them.

obviously if you're scared of sng's its because you lack post flop skill.

Corp, what's your point? The long run does exist for SNGs. People who play well and make good decisions make money, regardless of the results of any individual tourney.

It sounds like you get more tilted by SNG suckouts than by cash game suckouts. Bully for you, stick with the cash games.

SnG-Donks "buy back in" as well, when they bust - they open another little tourney where the try hard to donate their chips to you. You may never see a specific donk again, but there are always enough to make playing profitable if you are good enough.

If you make more money playing cash-games, don't bother with SnGs, but you should accept, that there are others who like playing them, and make money that way.

I thought cash games were more about post flop?
Or was that sarcasm?

************

anyway, I was so mad at myself last night.
On the BubBle in STT.
AS if I total lost track of the other shorter stack, and pushed with a FD on an A-high board into a pf raiser/chip leader. And I"m out. idiot idiot idiot.

Thing is, I worked hard to get where I was. I was quite suspect that the leader was keepnig the other guy strong whenever he would lose chips. THey must've battled each other 75% of the hands when we werew 3 handed, and I don't think there was evver a showdown. oh well. I see it as losing at least $72, not the $33 buyin.

It was a joke, you need post flop in general. i was pointing out the fact that he sucks at poker as a whole.

Hey it says there your favorite poker game is Texas Hold Em....awesome




Pssst. It's because there are actually some decent limit players on that site. I also was used to real easy limit games and then when I had to start check-raising on 4th st w/K high to drag pots, etc on FTP I was like screw this man, Party is where its at Limit wise.

shhhh.

He's going pro ( see Goals thread )

If I suck at poker then I don't want to know what your "title" for poker is. Suckier? And I never said you couldn't make a decent amount of $$$ playing SNG's, Im saying that I can't. I like cash games, you like SNG's, so be it.

hahah good one. sw

Man, you can't even SPELL poker.