WWWHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO....

:crimson mask:

From the tone and content of the majority of your posts, I take it you are a wrestling fan.. that being said, the Hulkster would own Ric Flair.

I respect Flair but I don't think he is a good wrestler anymore. When he gets pedigreeded, he makes it look so bad. when other people get pedigreeded they at least make it look like they get dropped on their head.

the new man is Shelton Benjamin and Cena. But The Rock is the man to be with.

hulk couldn't work his way out of a paper bag. Flair was one of the best workers of all time, therefore Flair>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hogan

Lol.....the Hulkster would own the Nature Boy??? Lol....I take it from the content of this post that you do not or have never even watched wrestling..if you HONESTLY think Hogan is even in the same league as Flair. Hogan is a good character...but Flair is one million times better in every single way. Get serious.






A. Flair is still a good wrestler, I think. In him prime...no, but he's better than most others (and WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY better than John "I only have four moves" Cena)...

B. The man is 57 years old. God forbid he doesn't sell one particular move to your liking..lol.

C. Shelton Benjamin is good. No one, however, and I mean no one, is even CLOSE to being as good as Ric Flair was...the only people who have even come close are Bret Hart and Chris Benoit..though neither of them are quite as good.

did u really expect a bunch of smart fans to comment on this. I almost never make wrestling threads because there are so many marks that its almost never worth my time to talk about it on anything but a wrestling site(and even then there are some really dumb posters on wrestling sites)

Lol..of course not. I just started the thread out of boredom and just to be dumb. Doesn't mean I can't speak the truth though..lol.

I heard wrestling was fake.

WWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

(Knief Edge Chop in the corner)

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

QFMFT

In his prime, Flair could carry a toaster to a five star classic.

YOU MAY NOT LIKE, BUT ITS THE BEST THING GOIN...




TODAY

There have been more than just those two. Ricky Steamboat was a hell of a worker, for one, and in terms of pure wrestling ability I would say Owen had the edge on Bret.

Also, if not for his lack of crowd control (or rather, the standard American wrestling fan's lack of appreciation for skill), I would put Dean Malenko high on the list of best American wrestlers in the past 20 years.

Owen was good...but I liked Bret a hell of a lot more. I understand that Bret's style may not appeal as much to some as to others, but to me, he's one of the very best.. .

Also, yeah, Steamboat was an incredible worker, but I don't recall him ever being a good heel....that takes away some points in my opinion.....

You are also very right about Malenko. Incredibly underrated. Also a shout-out to Randy Savage back in the 80s....I think he is pretty underrated as well...kinda crappy in the 90s maybe..but was good I think.

He might not be the best wrestler, but he still has the most charisma out of all the no personality meatheads they have on there. MEAN ....... WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.... JEAN

The amazing thing to me is when you guys talk about the all-time great wrestlers, no one has mentioned Shawn Michaels. If anyone comes close to Flair, it's him. Oh and Bret Hart was the most over-rated wrestler of all time.

FYP



Don't get me wrong, I love Bret. I just enjoyed Owen's work a little bit more.

Steamboat may not have played the heel, but he did play the face to perfection. Flair/Steamboat in any 80's NWA match showcased two men at the absolute pinnacle of the sport, bar none. If were giving shout outs to heel Ricks, though, then how about Rick Rude? Not the greatest worker ever, but he was overflowing with charisma and will always be a personal favorite of mine.

Oh ya Gene my bad.

Shawn Michaels sucks. Period.



I know you weren't dissing Bret, I was just saying that I do think that his style may not have appealed to some others as much as it does to me...for example the hobo who called him the most overrated wrestler a few posts up.

Steamboat was an incredible face, no doubt, I just think being a heel requires so much more....he is one of the all-time greats, no doubt. I just think Flair is in an entire league of his own....

Rick Rude owns. Also a shout-out to Curt Henning. I loved that guy...too bad Vince never gave him a run as World Champion. Would have loved to have seen those two have World Title runs....oh, but Hulk Hogan lifted Andre the Giant one time..so I guess all that was pushed aside.

shawn was excellent, but he wasn't in the same league as either bret or flair. Shawn was nototrious for messing up angles and not doing jobs. Shawn didn't have a long drawing peak

He wasn't on top of the mountain for long, but he's still one of the biggest draws on Raw. I read somewhere his merch sales are only second to Cena's on Raw. Back in his prime, Shawn was a troublemaker, but now it's a different story, he's one of the most respected people in the locker room.

Him being one of the "biggest draws" for a while has nothing to do with how good he was. Yeah, a lot of teenage girls and boys liked him. Doesn't matter. He was okay, but not that good. Plus, his constant refusal to job clean to anyone whatsoever makes him a pretty big douchebag.....anyone that can't/won't job clean just isn't that good. That's why Hogan is just decent...Shawn the same....that's why guys like Bret and Flair and Benoit are so good. They are good because of the quality of their matches..not because they always won. Hogan and Michaels had to always come out of top to soothe their egos and to get over....Flair got over simply because his matches themselves were the sh*t. Triple H, though not nearly as good as Flair and others, gets some props for that too...as he's jobbed clean a lot of times...even at Wrestlemania, and is still over pretty good.

Arn Anderson was always one of my favorites when it came to the technical side of wrestling. He could sell just about anything. I would also rank Nikolai Volkof pretty high up there as well.

I have no idea how I forgot The Enforcer. Definitely one of the best.

How about some of the all time great tag teams? I'd have to say the Midnight Express, the Rock N Roll Express, and Terry Gordy/Steve Williams.

I was always a fan of the Legion of Doom...Hart Foundation....Demolition...I don't know if any of those were as good of workers as those above...but I liked them.

Not that I am gonna disagree, because Flair is better than Hogan, but am I the only one who gets tired of seeing Flair in a ring these days. I hate his little faceflop he does after he gets hit with some move where he wanders around looking drunk for a second and drops on his face. He also gets annoying when he is on the mic, it seems like he gets going so fast he forgets what he was gonna say. I think he should hang it up.

My favorite wrestler has to be......... DISCO INFERNO!!!!

Bret never refused to job?!?!?!?! Have you never heard of Montreal???Survivor Series 97????That ring a bell???Anything?Flair and Benoit are great, but Bret has no place in even the top 25 wrestlers of all time. Every wrestler in the world(Bret inlcuded)praises Shawn for his in ring work. Mick Foley says he does everything perfect. Even Flair says Bret is horrible and Shawn is great.

As much as I love Flair, he's not right every time. This is the same guy who, as head booker for WCW, refused to push Foley.

That being said, I agree about Shawn. The guy has plenty of talent and charisma to spare. He was the first champ, in my mind, that could take a "sports entertainment" type persona and build it around a great work ethic. In fact, I'd be willing to say that Shawn, Foley, and Austin are the only ones to do that succesfully.

The Dean Malenko/Eddie Guerrero/Rey Misterio Jr. era from ECW is some of my all-time favorite stuff.

Get your facts straight. The match was booked for Bret to win clean and then for Michaels to win the next night on Raw and for Bret to leave for WCW. It was Michaels who refused to job to anyone whatsoever while he was "in his prime." Bret jobbed clean allllll the time. The only thing Bret wanted before he left the company was to win in Canada and then drop the title the next night. Shawn Michaels is the one with the giant ego who flat out refused to job to anyone at the time. It flat out never happened for a long long time.

Also, Flair never said Bret was horrible, they just argue over which one of them was better. They have their little personal fued, but I don't know where you are getting your "everyone thinks Bret sucks" info from....but it sounds like flat bullsh*t straight out of your *** to me.

No, I don't think that's how it went down Shawn an @$$ at times, but Bret REFUSED to drop the belt in Canada, which is ridiculous. It wasn't even in his hometown. Bret thinks of himself as a god in Canada, and refused to do what's right for the business. He was not going to job the next night, he was just going to give a goodbye speech and then FORFEIT the title.

This is from Ric's book, page 223, "Personally, I never saw dollar signs on Bret. He was a good, sound, physical wrestler, but with limited charisma and interview skills. He also could have been president of his own fan club. Bret truly thought he was the best technical wrestler who ever lived, and he was stuck in a routine that he refused to break. . .Bret could have tremendous match when it really counted. But, day to day, I found him to be inflexible. And in 1997, when Bret punched out Vince McMahon at over a finish in Montreal, I was appalled. . .Vince wanted him to lose at Survivior Series, but Hart wouldn't. . .Bret refused to lose in Canada. That would be the equivalent of me saying that I'd never let anyone beat me in North Carolina. Give me a break!. . .The fact are this: Hogan, for all he did right and wrong, drew a lot of money. savage, for all he did, right and wrong, drew a lot of money. Roddy Piper, Dusty Rhodes, and myself drew big money. Bret Hart did not. Vince had other distractions at time, but when Bret beat me for the title, the company went to hell for awhile."
That's where I get my info from. Bret probably wasn't god-awful in the ring, I think the Iron Man match at Wrestlemania 12 is probably the greatest of all time. But as you can see, Bret isn't as good as he, and all his fans, especially Canadians make him out to be.

Okay.

A. From everything I have ever heard, Bret wanted to win in Canada and job to Shawn the next night. It was Michaels who refused to job whatsoever.

B. However, neither one of us were there, so no one will ever know. Even IF you are right on this and I am wrong (which I doubt), this would be ONE ONE ONE time when Bret refused to job. There are a LOT of examples where Bret jobbed clean...I personally saw him job three times cleanly at house shows (Luger, Owen Hart, and the Undertaker) and there are many many many examples of him jobbing throughout his career. You can not say the same for Michaels. He hardly EVER jobbed while "in his prime," and even now I can't recall him hardly ever jobbing. Bret jobbed to Owen, Davey Boy Smith, Goldberg, Shawn Michaels, the Undertaker, and numerous numerous others.

C. Uh...okay, to back up your claim that Bret wasn't that great, you quote a guy who had a GHOST WRITER WRITE HIS BOOK and a guy who has a very genuine dislike for him. That's like me someone taking my opinion from here and using it as "proof" that Shawn Michaels was truly a crappy wrestler. I don't think so. Ric Flair doesn't like Bret Hart, so he talks bad about him. That doesn't make it a fact that Bret wasn't that great. Bret was a great executer of his moves, he sold magnificently, his matches told a great story, he never seriously injured an opponent, and he was capable of jobbing clean and maintaining his image/character.

Flair also thinks Mick Foley is crappy. Guess that means Mick Foley is just a hack with no heart who can't wrestle and sucks. Right? I mean..Flair said it, right?? Give me a break. It's obvious you are a total mark...lol. Your arguments are a joke....so I am done here. Your argument of "one guy doesn't like Bret, so that means he was a bad wrestler" makes me laugh and cry at the same time.

wow, this is one of the more misinformed posts that presents itself as an informed post that I have seen. Lets start off with the flair book. Keep in mind that anything post foley books done by the WWE are slanted in Vince's version of history. At teh time that the Flair book was written, Vince and Bret were doing their normal griping at each other, the flair and hogan books put stuff in about bret for pure controversy, nothing more. So don't take much of what is in that book all that seriously. Dave Meltzer did an article in the WON picking apart the historical inaccuracies of the flair book.

now onto Bret v Shawn. Bret's refusal of dropping the belt to shawn was bore out of Shawn's own refusal to give bret his win back from WM12. The intended ME and Semi Main for WM 13 was Bret/Shawn for the title and Austin/Pillman. Well, when Shawn pulled that lost my smile crap 6 weeks before he was supposed to do the job to bret, radical changes had to happen for WM13. Shawn was never injured, because what idiot would do a bunch of kip ups in their first Match back after a supposed serious knee injury. No, shawn just wanted to get out of doing the job. Shawn also screwed up the KoTR 97 ME because he was supposed to lose to bret there too. Instead he picked a fight with bret backstage and the ME had to be changed to Shawn/Austin. I can go into several other instances of shawn not wanting to job to someone(vader) so that he wouldn't either do the job, or have one of his friends beat him. The not wanting to drop the title in canada line by bret is bret keeping Kayfabe

Ok, Ok, I'll make a SLIGHT concession. Bret Hart was not a TERRIBLE wrestler, he was good. I just think he is somewhat overrated. I think that Shawn was the best in-ring performer ever, and that he and Bret had the best match ever. But, honestly we are all probably somewhat off on the screwjob thing, but I think I have a little bit of an edge because my friend, Bobby Reidel, worked for the WWF from the early nineties until 97. He personally told me that Bret was not going to job to anybody after Survivor Series, but make a speech on Raw and forfeit the title. Having said that, He's on Bret's side, he thinks Bret and Vince had an agreement and Vince should have kept that agreement. He also said that Shawn got away with stuff that Vince would have never let Bret get away with. However, Bobby says that Shawn's a totally different person now, and has tried to get Bret's forgiveness, but Bret's still bitter over the whole thing, and is basically acting like a crybaby. So that's as clean as i can come guys. I'm biased because I'm a Shawn fan, and you guys are biased because you're Bret fans. But, we can agree that IN THE RING, they are both very good performer. . . . . . . . .But Shawn's just little bit better.

1. this was well known and isn't exactly a revelation. Again, this was bret's sentiment on it because of shawn's constant refusal to give bret his win back. nothing earth shattering there

2. this isn't all that true. Shawn is a born again christian when it fits him and is his normal self almost all of the other time. I have known wrestlers over the years that have told me so. Bret's bitterness at this point has a ton more to do with people hounding him and his brother's easily aviodable death. I highly doubt that Shawn has tried to get bret's forgiveness and I doubt that shawn really cares.

FWIW, I'm not a pure bret fan and I'm not a shawn hater. I am a big Shawn mark actually, but bret was better in the ring. Even though I am a Micheals mark, I don't blatantly ignore all of the idiocy that was Shawn Micheals and gloss over his constant refusal to put people over or his using the WWF as his own fiefdom.

Shawn isn't even close to being the best in ring performer ever. Flair, Race, Jack Brisco, and Nick Bockwinkle are the only americans that would even come close to that level because that top 10 would be heavily dominated by guys like Satoryu Sayama, Dynamite Kid, Kenta Kobashi, Riki Choshu, Keiji Muto, Tatsumi Fujinami, Billy Robinson, Jumbo Tsuruta, and Mitsuharu Misawa to name a few. Seriously, watch the Misawa/Kawada Match from 94 and then tell me how Micheals would compare against those guys. Hell, watch any All Japan Wrestling from 91-00 and then Pro Wrestling NOAH from about 02-present for the top matches. There are few Shawn matches that would hold a candle to most of those matches. It should be also noted that Shawn has never been in a WON MOTY and Bret has, and Flair has taken home at least 3 that I can think of

Angle was the best, but now he got released.

KDawgCometh just completely OWNED this thread. Nice job sir. I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Herokid..quit talking out of your a**. If you think Shawn Michaels was a better in-ring performer, fine. I think you are wrong, but that's your opinion, fine, but the rest of what you have said is just crap. Bret jobbed all the time and did what he was supposed to do to put others over, work angles..etc. etc. Shawn Michaels only did what was best for himself and sought to get out of doing anything where he wasn't coming out on top. Everyone knows it.

Back to the point. Ric Flair was and is the greatest of all time. I think Bret and Benoit are close in terms of in-ring work.

Slight Edge to Benoit. I think he is a more well rounded wrestler and has the edge in intensity.

People should have to get KDawg's permission to post in this thread.

Can't argue that I don't think...it's a pretty close call. I hope Benoit comes back strong and adds to his legacy of being so freaking boss.

I dunno, I always respected his talent in the ring but he never came across to me as a great heel or face. I think he lacked the ability on the mic, a little less charasmatic than Bret was.

Bret definitely has the charisma and makes a terrific heel. It's easy to make a case for either of the two, and no matter which one we think is better, they still make nearly every other wrestler in this country look like retarded sloths in the ring.

Can't argue with any of that. Benoit's lack of mic skills, however, doesn't take away much from him in my eyes though.

Bret was a great heel.

"Who are you to doubt El Dandy."

Benoit's talent cannot be questioned.