You are playing $100-$200 blind Pot Limit Omaha and come in raising to $600 with 3 4 5 8

A very tight player re-raised the pot, making it $2100 to go and only had $1100 left. Now, another tight player goes all in for a total of $3600.

You have to call $3000 more in what will most certainly be a three way pot. What would you do?

You are getting pot odds, therefore you should call. Tight player might have aces or kings. Since the other guy will also make the call and be all-in you don't have to worry about him going all-in on the flop costing you more to draw to a possible straight or flush. Your hand doesn't contain any high cards, while the other two probly do so you're getting the odds preflop. Also no hand is a huge favorite in Omaha even AAKK vs 275J

I would call given the description of my 2 opponents being very tight, which means they likely have AAXX and KKXX type hands. My hand fares well against these types of hands and stands to win enough to warrant calling given the pot odds.

ok some quick calculations. Blinds=$300+your $600+$3600+$3200=$7700 in the pot and $3000 for you to play. You need a 28.04% chance to win to make the call profitable. Will you have those odds? most likely, although if the two have your flush draws dominated you could be in some trouble. If someone has an Omaha calculator run our hand against AAJ9 and QQAK random suits and see what the percentages are.

I voted call, even against KsTsKdQh and AcJcAd9d you have 29.5% chance to win.

But, if a couple of loose players folded before the action started (such that it's likely that they held low cards), then I might be inclined to fold, since there's now reason to suspect that my hand is likely to be more dead than I might normally expect.

I think we need to count both stacks all-in for our calculations. We can't tell if the blinds are one of the raisers, but we'll assume not.

Our pot odds in the main pot are:
(600 + 3300 x 2 + 300) / 2700 = 7500/2700 = 2.8:1 or 1/3.8 = 27%

twodimes cruncher gives us some numbers. With the assumption that the two raisers have all broadway cards, we're right around 27% if our suits are dominated. We're basically free-rolling on the possibility of having a live suit. This is a call.




I personally wouldn't raise with that in full ring with the gaps at the top. I'd hold out for 3 6 7 8 .

P.S., I am weak-tight.

Edit: Cocked up the math the first time. Gilbertology is wise.

I also screwed up the math by $100, unless Daniel edited his op to trick me. It's fixed now, odds we need are 28.04% instead of 28.3%, that extra $100 could be the difference between a call and a fold

Given preflop advantages are a lot smaller in Omaha pot odds would dictate a call.

Call

If both opponents are very tight/tight then one probably has AAxx while the other one has a good chance of having a broadway type hand. It's likely that our straight/low card outs are clean plus we're doublesuited which gives us a better chance that one of our two flush draws is good as well.

Ok, I'll be the first one to say fold.

Sure the correct odds might state that we're 28.xxxxx % to win
and might be getting the correct odds (by the slightest of margins)
but with only $600 in the pot, needing to call of the rest of our 3 grand,
I'd rather be the guy with AAxx in this spot than the guy with our hand.

Plus, I don't raise this pf from early position, maybe limp, which makes
it a much easier fold.

The odds dictate a call. So mathematically, it's correct to call.

But you're definitely behind in this pot and it is possible that your flush may be trumped by other clubs or spades, which would leave you with less outs than you expected. I'm expecting one of these two to have AAxx double suited (probably the all in push).

I make this call. It's a cash game after all, I could always rebuy in if I don't mind sparing the money. I'd probably lay it down in most tournament situations.

HUH?

Consider a hold'em example: You have 72o and your opponent has 77. There is $1,000,000 in the pot. Your opponent pushes for $1. This is the easiest call in the world.

Obviously you'd rather be the guy holding 77, but folding 72o because you don't like your hand is idiotic.

With the odds the way they are I would call here.

I'd accidently hit fold and make sure everyone knows it was a misclick.

my intial thought was fold. then it was, wait, these players are sharing aces, call! then it was wait, is my hand even a favorite against 2 aces?

i decided the answer was fold before i ran my simulation.

29% favorite against two AA hands, i didn't randomize the xx but i made one pretty strong and one very strong.

since we are essentially putting in our last 2400 for a 9000 pot, we need to win 26.6% of the time. so... call!

I voted fold. Our opponents certainly don't need good aces to make this kind of move, and if we're against something like KK98 and AA54, we're in a world of hurt. Just because we have good pot odds if we're against big pairs that don't dominate us at all, doesn't mean that isn't made up for by the few times we're 10% to win the pot.

but do "very tight players" reraise the pot with KK98?

For what it's worth, have some numbers.

It's time to gamble.

Two tight players are almost certain to have AA hands here. The second player is virtually certain to have AA and not to have KK, especially if he is putting in the third raise after a very tight player reraises. A very tight player usually won't commit the majority of his stack preflop without aces.

Your hand is potentially huge favorite in a three-way pot (45%) if your opponents have hands like A A J T and A A K Q . You are mainly in some trouble, but still not horribly dead if your opponents hold higher draws in both of your suits. If your opponents are really tight, they might not just have AA, but will also have higher coordinated cards that are less likely to interfere with the low straight or two pair that you are hoping to make (plus, they are more likely to hold each others outs). It's actually better for you if your opponents wouldn't raise with a hand like AA73 but would only play something like AAKQ or AAJ9 this way.

There is NO WAY i call here.

Sure, pot odds might add up for a call. But Pot odds are there as a guide - they DO NOT dictate definetively what you should and should not do!

Why not just fold knowing you are drawing slim and save the money to play another hand.
Hell, i dont want to gamble off most of my stack because im 25% to win the hand and im getting the correct odds.

You can't assume your suits are outs for you either, infact - i'd go ahead and assume they are not outs.


By calling this raise, the only way you win this pot is to get lucky and hit the board, hard!


Again, no way i call here

Because you probably are not drawing slim and might even be a huge favorite.

how can you be a huge favourite??????

is one guy holding 2-2-2-2

Are you serious?

Did you not read my previous post? You would be 45% to win in a three-way pot if your opponents held a pair of hands like A A J T and A A K Q . That counts as being a huge favorite.

Fold.

While you have a shot at two flushes, it's a low end. Even if both other players have aces, then they have a shot at the nut flush, if of course one of their other hole cards is a club or spade.

The straight is almost as bad. If you get a wheel draw, you're up a creek because A) It can bring an Ace, likely making trips for one of your opponents, and B)if a 2 doesn't fall, you have 2 pair, and are probably already beaten.

Not to mention the chances that your opponents have overcards galore. What if the flop's 7-9-10? You're hurting, and you've just thrown 3 grand away.

You raised, you got reraised twice, it's time to get out cheap. Maybe I'd gamble in a tourney, but not in a cash game. That's how people go broke.

This is the dumbest thing I've ever read.

In a cash game, if pot odds are better than than your odds of winning the hand you MUST call...because, simply put, if you do that every time over a set number of hands you profit.

The problem most people run into is they make up scenarios in their heads where they do have the pot odds, when they really don't, and they go out of their way to justify a call based on pot odds, when their chances of winning are actually much lower than they conclude....BUT, if you accurately determine that your price is better than your odds, you have to call if you like money.

For example, let's say we are betting on the roll of a die...you are 5:1 to guess the correct roll....your odds of guessing right are only 17%.

But, if you have to bet $1 and I say I'll give you $6 every time you're right, you'd be a complete moron to turn down that deal.

Because over 1200 rolls of the die you make a profit....200 times you win $6...1000 times you pay $1...you make $200.

It doesn't matter how bad your odds of winning are as long as the price you pay is better.

So, it comes down to you calling $3000 to win $7700 ($400 of each which is a sidepot)....so, do you have better than a 28% chance of winning here?

Yes, you do.


Even if you are against KcKsQsJc and AcAsTsTc you are 32% to win...and I have to think that that is pretty close to your worst-case scenario against their probably holdings.

I have to think that against a reasonable range of hands for two tight players you are much better than 30% to win, so a call is mandatory...if you like money.


btw - I think this is a clear fold in O8....I also likely fold in an Omaha tournament, even if the price is slightly in your favour, looking for a better price (but could also call if your stack is huge if knocking out the 2nd player is a great benefit).


Also - the fact that you raised with 3458 to begin with (and the fact that some of you don't like it) is irrelevent...he could have been making a move, or setting up a post-flop move...he may have raised blind and not looked until facing the all-ins...he could be randomizing and this was his time to raise a random hand...there are dozens of reasons to play this hand this way....just because the "book" says to fold it pf doesn't mean you should every time.




It doesn't matter if you're hurting after the flop...there's no more play here...you get to see all 5 cards....if the 2nd player had more money behind, then it's usually a clear fold, but your call of 3000 into a 7700 pot (assuming the first raiser calls his last 1100) is with the consideration that you are not going to be outplayed, you are not worried about pricing for a redraw after the flop, and you will see all 5 cards.

It's as clear as day - do you have better than a 28% chance of winning this hand? Yes, you must call...no, you must fold.

I'd do the opposite. If I'm afraid of going broke, I'm playing at the wrong stakes.

Man, pot-limit omaha cash games are definitely not for you. You would probably hate a game where it is sometimes correct to fold the nuts on the flop and sometimes correct to jam the pot when your opponent flopped the nuts and you didn't.

If you can't afford to lose $3000 you shouldn't have $3000 on the table.

Troo...

nothing like having KdKsTdTs in your hand, to a board of Tc4s6sKc, and you're drawing dead.

it would be a real wierd *** hand if one guy had a-a-t-j and another had a-a-k-q that just hardly ever happens

i dont see why these guys need to have aces in their hand anyway remember they are real short stacked playing 100-200 with only 4000. even if they are rocks they could have any kind of big pair or a few high connecting cards.

given the spot with chips already invested i would probably gamble and call the all ins.

A very tight player almost never reraises committing more than half his chips without AA in his hand. A tight player never puts in the third raise after a very tight player reraises without AAxx. You would have a better chance of finding a hand other than AA in the hand of a tight player who puts in the third raise for the same amounts after a very tight player reraised an early position raise in a no limit hold em cash game.

I think you people are really underestimating what very tight means in pot limit omaha. A tight PLO player will often see fewer flops than a tight NLHE player.

I agree, at least one of the two players has AAxx, and the other guy is huge too....simple probability tells me the other has KKxx rather than also AAxx....and generally, your chances are much better if both players have AAxx, making it more correct to call....even against AAxx and AKKx you are likely over 30% to win the hand.

The Th or Kh wouldnt help?

not if they're in someone else's hand.

You need to factor in that, given a very tight player's reraise in front of him, a tight player would fold a lot of KKxx hands.

yup...I am doubting the second reraiser has KKxx (though there are a few KKxx hands he might have, but overall it's almost guaranteed he has AAxx).

The first reraiser could have KKxx, even at "very tight", especially if dude with 3468 is known to be loose.

The quiz is "what would you do?", not "what is the correct play?"

At the table there is no way I (personally) could evaluate that I was a 28% favorite with pot odds of 27%, so my instinct would be to fold.

Some non-mathematical considerations: If DN is raising with this hand UTG I imagine he has been successful at stealing a lot of blinds. Hence his advantage over these players is probably greater than the 1% he is getting on this hand.

Well, I don't know where you're getting 1%...

He's getting 28% pot price, but he could be upwards of 40% to win the hand.

Regardless, even if he's only 31% to win against a range of hands, that is not a 3% advantage...it's a 10% advantage.

And, since the word "quiz" is used, that implies that there is a correct, and incorrect, play. (and folding may indeed be correct)

And to be profitable long-term, you need to be able to determine what your odds are in all situations to determine if your price to play is correct.

i don't know if there is a right answer here. odds probably say to call against the likely hands we've discussed, but the chances of winning are, obviously, low.

i'm most concerned about AA with doublesuited cards in the high-straight ballpark of my hand. so, if my hand makes a straight, i'm probably in danger to a hand like AA89 or AA910 or something. that's the real problem with the hand. the same goes for making a low flush against nut flush draws.

with two players all in, somebody's probably got our hand in a pretty bad spot. i think, overall, it's a bad gamble. fold.

The reason DN works with these small raises on 'non-raisable' hands is to help his information gathering.

When he gets reraised by a very tight player as opposed to being simply raised after limping, its a safe bet the raiser has a very strong hand, probably AAxx.

Then when a tight player re-re-raises the thought process is similar.

This makes the need to do +/- 1% calcs at the table uneccesary. You can deduce that you are putting in a good portion less than a third of the pot knowing that there is a good chance they are both holding AAxx, so against their likely ranges you have moved from a small dog upwards making it a call

I don't know abut you, but I prefer it when what I would do is the same thing as what is the correct play.

When playing pot limit omaha, these sorts of situations come up often enough that you have to be prepared and think ahead of time about what hands play well in multi-way all-in situations, both preflop and on the flop.

PLO isn't a game for stealing blinds, and definitely not UTG. If DN raises UTG with this hand, it is because he is making a pot-building raise that he would like to see called.

Call and pray for a str8 flush.

Nah, I lied. Two low C's and S's? Folderama. Pot odds? Ha!

Guys heres something i dont think anyones said yet. the vote is pretty close so based on pot odds it probably doesnt matter if you fold or call in the long run

but if you make a call like this then everybody will notice and you'll send a message that you will protect your raises and cant be moved off hands. call here and no one will try to bluff you anytime soon

This is not even close to a worst-case scenario... change the suits of that first hand to KhKdQhQd so that it is no longer dominated. We are now 23.7% to win!

None of you have accurately calculated the pot odds of this situation. You must include a range of hands. I just gave one example in which we clearly have incorrect pot odds.

This is balanced by the times you are 45% to win the hand. Because your opponents are tight, more often than not, the side cards to the aces each almost certainly have are more likely to conflict with eadh other than to block your hand.

Plus, the third player in this hand should probably be folding KKQQds in this spot. Playing that hand is like playing JJ after UTG raises and a very tight player raises in a no limit hold em cash game. I think people are way overestimating the chances that at least one opponent doesn't hold AAxx.

Then you're not reading, or understanding, the other posts in this thread...because I, and many others, have CLEARLY stated that the range of hands your opponents hold likely makes you over 30% to win the hand.

In response to your hand...here are some plausible holdings - give player one AhAdKcQc and player two AsAcTsTc and you are 40% to win.....give player two AsAcKsKh and you're 43% to win...if player one has AhAcKdKs and player two has AdAsKhKc you are 58% to win...we can play this game forever if you want.

You are likely well over 30% against their RANGE of hands, (and I'd venture to guess 35%), and since you only need 28%, call is the correct play.

The odds are there.

If you are hesitant about calling here and you understand that the odds are in your favor, then you are playing too far above your bankroll.

In a tourney, you can argue for this fold because although you are getting odds, you are risking your tournament life with not that huge of an edge.

In a cash game, when you can rebuy at will, there is no reason to fold this hand given the math expressed above by our forum math whizzes.

i'd call. even if we have both our suits dominated assuming both tight players have big pairs or double suited broadway hands we are still only slightly worse than a 3:1 dog, and getting better than 3:1 on the call given this is a worst case scenario i can't see folding.

i'm sure there are some scenarios in which the tight players both have aces or other big broadway hands and they are the ones sharing cards/suits and we have almost 50% equity.

-andrew