The question is pretty simple:

Without religeon would our society's morals improve or decay?
Would violent crimes increase or decrease?
Would people become more or less selfish?
etc. etc.

As an agnostic I have often wondered whether religeons overall impact on the world is positive or negative. It has obviously caused many senseless deaths, but has it prevented many more? Personally, I do not need the incentive of heaven after death in order to treat others with respect and kindness. However, some people seem to have trouble leading a life that positively impacts others without that "reward at the end of the tunnel."

I would like to think that most people would be kind to others with or without their religious teachings, but to be honest, I really don't know. Thoughts?

Religion has not caused any more deaths than say, the holocaust. Coincidentally, the perpetrator of that little hoedown was a big fan of Darwinism. Go figure.

Don't know of much evidence that exists for his motives being Evolution based.

I don't think you have ever made any claims and backed it with fact. Try some of these for size...

I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work. [Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . we need believing people. [Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933]

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed. [Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922, published in My New Order, quoted in Freethought Today April 1990]

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 46]

What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 125]

This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.152]

And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.174]

Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another... while the enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.309]

I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so [Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in a fanatical outlook. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 171]

I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 1]

I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 2]

...the unprecedented rise of the Christian Social Party... was to assume the deepest significance for me as a classical object of study. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to his own heaven. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

Political parties has nothing to do with religious problems, as long as these are not alien to the nation, undermining the morals and ethics of the race; just as religion cannot be amalgamated with the scheming of political parties. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

For the political leader the religious doctrines and institutions of his people must always remain inviolable; or else has no right to be in politics, but should become a reformer, if he has what it takes! [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

In nearly all the matters in which the Pan-German movement was wanting, the attitude of the Christian Social Party was correct and well-planned. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

It [Christian Social Party] recognized the value of large-scale propaganda and was a virtuoso in influencing the psychological instincts of the broad masses of its adherents. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

If Dr. Karl Lueger had lived in Germany, he would have been ranked among the great minds of our people. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3, about the leader of the Christian Social movement]

Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

I had so often sung 'Deutschland u:ber Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

I soon realized that the correct use of propaganda is a true art which has remained practically unknown to the bourgeois parties. Only the Christian- Social movement, especially in Lueger's time achieved a certain virtuosity on this instrument, to which it owed many of its success. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 6]

Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 7, reflecting on World War I]

The more abstractly correct and hence powerful this idea will be, the more impossible remains its complete fulfillment as long as it continues to depend on human beings... If this were not so, the founders of religion could not be counted among the greatest men of this earth... In its workings, even the religion of love is only the weak reflection of the will of its exalted founder; its significance, however, lies in the direction which it attempted to give to a universal human development of culture, ethics, and morality. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 8]

To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin Luther as well as Richard Wagner. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 8]

The fight against syphilis demands a fight against prostitution, against prejudices, old habits, against previous conceptions, general views among them not least the false prudery of certain circles. The first prerequisite for even the moral right to combat these things is the facilitation of earlier marriage for the coming generation. In late marriage alone lies the compulsion to retain an institution which, twist and turn as you like, is and remains a disgrace to humanity, an institution which is damned ill-suited to a being who with his usual modesty likes to regard himself as the 'image' of God. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

Parallel to the training of the body a struggle against the poisoning of the soul must begin. Our whole public life today is like a hothouse for sexual ideas and simulations. Just look at the bill of fare served up in our movies, vaudeville and theaters, and you will hardly be able to deny that this is not the right kind of food, particularly for the youth...Theater, art, literature, cinema, press, posters, and window displays must be cleansed of all manifestations of our rotting world and placed in the service of a moral, political, and cultural idea. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 10, echoing the Cultural Warfare rhetoric of the Religious Right]

But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from now. I think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to profane the Almighty. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

While both denominations maintain missions in Asia and Africa in order to win new followers for their doctrine-- an activity which can boast but very modest success compared to the advance of the Mohammedan faith in particular-- right here in Europe they lose millions and millions of inward adherents who either are alien to all religious life or simply go their own ways. The consequences, particularly from a moral point of view, are not favorable. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

The great masses of people do not consist of philosophers; precisely for the masses, faith is often the sole foundation of a moral attitude. The various substitutes have not proved so successful from the standpoint of results that they could be regarded as a useful replacement for previous religious creeds. But if religious doctrine and faith are really to embrace the broad masses, the unconditional authority of the content of this faith is the foundation of all efficacy. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

Due to his own original special nature, the Jew cannot possess a religious institution, if for no other reason because he lacks idealism in any form, and hence belief in a hereafter is absolutely foreign to him. And a religion in the Aryan sense cannot be imagined which lacks the conviction of survival after death in some form. Indeed, the Talmud is not a book to prepare a man for the hereafter, but only for a practical and profitable life in this world. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 11]

The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 11]

....the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 11, precisely echoing Martin Luther's teachings]

Faith is harder to shake than knowledge, love succumbs less to change than respect, hate is more enduring than aversion, and the impetus to the mightiest upheavals on this earth has at all times consisted less in a scientific knowledge dominating the masses than in a fanaticism which inspired them and sometimes in a hysteria which drove them forward. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

The greatness of every mighty organization embodying an idea in this world lies in the religious fanaticism and intolerance with which, fanatically convinced of its own right, it intolerantly imposes its will against all others. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

All in all, this whole period of winter 1919-20 was a single struggle to strengthen confidence in the victorious might of the young movement and raise it to that fanaticism of faith which can move mountains. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

Of course, even the general designation 'religious' includes various basic ideas or convictions, for example, the indestructibility of the soul, the eternity of its existence, the existence of a higher being, etc. But all these ideas, regardless of how convincing they may be for the individual, are submitted to the critical examination of this individual and hence to a fluctuating affirmation or negation until emotional divination or knowledge assumes the binding force of apodictic faith. This, above all, is the fighting factor which makes a breach and opens the way for the recognition of basic religious views. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

A folkish state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the level of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the consecration of an institution which is called upon to produce images of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

It would be more in keeping with the intention of the noblest man in this world if our two Christian churches, instead of annoying Negroes with missions which they neither desire nor understand, would kindly, but in all seriousness, teach our European humanity that where parents are not healthy it is a deed pleasing to God to take pity on a poor little healthy orphan child and give him father and mother, than themselves to give birth to a sick child who will only bring unhappiness and suffering on himself and the rest of the world. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

That this is possible may not be denied in a world where hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people voluntarily submit to celibacy, obligated and bound by nothing except the injunction of the Church. Should the same renunciation not be possible if this injunction is replaced by the admonition finally to put an end to the constant and continuous original sin of racial poisoning, and to give the Almighty Creator beings such as He Himself created? [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

For the greatest revolutionary changes on this earth would not have been thinkable if their motive force, instead of fanatical, yes, hysterical passion, had been merely the bourgeois virtues of law and order. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

It doesn't dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture-race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 5]

For how shall we fill people with blind faith in the correctness of a doctrine, if we ourselves spread uncertainty and doubt by constant changes in its outward structure? ...Here, too, we can learn by the example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice, and in part quite superfluously, comes into collision with exact science and research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one little syllable of its dogmas... it is only such dogmas which lend to the whole body the character of a faith. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 5]

The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 10]

In the ranks of the movement [National Socialist movement], the most devout Protestant could sit beside the most devout Catholic, without coming into the slightest conflict with his religious convictions. The mighty common struggle which both carried on against the destroyer of Aryan humanity had, on the contrary, taught them mutually to respect and esteem one another. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 10]

For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: 'Lord, make us free!' is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!' [Adolf Hitler's prayer, Mein Kampf, Vol. 2 Chapter 13]

The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life [Adolph Hitler, in a speech to the Reichstag on March 23, 1933]

I go the way that Providence dictates with the assurance of a sleepwalker. [Adolf Hitler, Speech, 15 March 1936, Munich, Germany.]

Today Christians ... stand at the head of [this country]... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the *poison of immorality* which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of *liberal excess* during the past ... (few) years. [The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872]

Atheist Hall Converted
Berlin Churches Establish Bureau to Win Back Worshippers

Wireless to the New York Times.

BERLIN, May 13. - In Freethinkers Hall, which before the Nazi resurgence was the national headquarters of the German Freethinkers League, the Berlin Protestant church authorities have opened a bureau for advice to the public in church matters. Its chief object is to win back former churchgoers and assist those who have not previously belonged to any religious congregation in obtaining church membership.

The German Freethinkers League, which was swept away by the national revolution, was the largest of such organizations in Germany. It had about 500,000 members ... [New York Times, May 14, 1933, page 2, on Hitler's outlawing of atheistic and freethinking groups in Germany in the Spring of 1933, after the Enabling Act authorizing Hitler to rule by decree]

Canada . . . I enjoy debating with you (honestly) . . but, the quotes from Hitler, although true, is just an example of one "bad apple" so to speak. Hitler was a horrible person who used his warped sense of "religion" to justify his personal hatred towards Jews. He called himself a christian . . . but he was not even close. I compare him to the cowards who flew the planes into the towers in NYC . . . they also did so in the name of their religion. People like these use "religion" as a crutch to do what they really want to do . . . kill. Hitler was nothing more than a psychopath.

The majority of the major world religions all teach peace. I will use Christianity as an example since I am a Christian myself. In my church, Sunday School class we study the scriptures of the bible. We study the entire bible (over time of course) with the understanding that Jesus Christ died for our sins and now the laws of old (Old Testament) have been replaced with the laws of new (New Testament). The New Testament teaches the love that Christ has for us. It instructs us to strive to be more like him. Love, peace, forgiveness, acceptance, understanding . . . no where in here does it tell me that I need to kill Jews . . . or fly planes into buildings, etc.

Any person who claims that they are killing in the name of their "GOD" is nothing more than an exremist who is really doing it for their own beliefs and not that of their "religion".

I guess to get back to the OP question . . . I believe that without religion their would be a further decay in our society overall. Whether you are a believer or not . . . atheist, agnostic, whatever . . . I think you will agree that "most" religions are good in nature. They teach peace and love . . . not hate. They teach good moral values. Those who follow these religions will try to strive for such . . . so to me . . . they can't ever be considered bad for society.

I just thought of a quick comparison to what I was saying about about Hitler being a bad apple that spoils the bunch. One of the arguments I heard against online poker was an example of a college student that went out and robbed a bank so he could pay off his credit card debt, after maxing them out on a poker site. Does this mean that all poker players are thiefs and will rob and plunder to play poker? Of course not! The same is true for religion. Just because you have an extremist doing something for his "religion" does not meant that all "religous" people are that way.

Over the centuries, there have been horrible, horrible acts done in the name of Christianity. Hitler is just one example. From 1095 to the fifteenth century, Christianity actually had leaders who believed that God would forgive anyone who killed in the name of Christ.

What is important recognize, though, is that those people committed sins that are in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Bible. What they did IS NOT CHRISTIANITY. In fact, many (if not all) of them were probably not even Christians despite claiming to be.

Christianity does not teach the killing of unbelievers. Christianity is about love. The Bible teaches about how we are to love our enemies, and it tells us over and over of God's love for you and me.

I agree 100% FOOSE.

Hitler was no more a true Christian than Osama Bin-Liner is a true Muslim. I was simply refuting more of LMD's crap. Honestly, why he needs to lie so much is beyond me. Another example of someone claiming to be Christian and being anything but...

A lot of war and other atrocities have been perpetrated in the name of religion, but I'm fairly confident that if there was no religion, the atrocities would be the same, just the excuses would be different

Yeah . . . I see now . . . I should have paid closer attention to the context you were replying in.

Wow...just wow.

One of the reasons the Holocaust happened was BECAUSE of religion and Hitler's belief system, which was only partially predicated on Darwinistic protocol, so to speak. They also killed thousands of artist, gypsies and homosexuals, believing all of the above to be deviants and not societally worthy of life.

This is what interpretation leads to. To call Hitler "one bad apple" is to imply that this behaviour is rare. It is, in fact, not rare. Stalin had 10's of thousands killed or interned for various reasons. Pol Pot did the same in Cambodia. Should we consider the ongoing genocides occuring in the Congo, West Africa, things that happened in Rwanda, decades of intolerance and segregation in South Africa? To name but a few?

Sure, religion may grab only partial headlines in these conflicts, backseating to racial intolerance, but it all boils down to the same thing: People are killing other people for their own beliefs and prejudices AND IT'S NOT RIGHT!

That's not a fair assessment by you. You CAN NOT blame religion for what Hitler or anybody else has done. They are merely using religion as a crutch. THEY are the problem . . . not religion. Religion by itself is inherently good. You said it yourself . . . it's in the interpretation. If somebody interprets religion in a way that they feel it justifies them to kill . . . then the person doing the interpreting has the problem! Just like the example I used above . . . you can't sit there and say that poker was the reason the college kid robbed the bank. HE was the problem . . . not poker. (We all know poker by itself is GOOD!)

Im going to back Canada on this one. I see his point and what he was trying to do. LMD, we may believe in the same God but your point about Hitler is misguided and irrelevant to the OP.

My thoughts on the OP is that I think it would be really interesting to see how people would act if they had no religion. I think for the most part you would have a society looking a little more like communism. America was founded by 'Christians', if 'God' was taken out of government (more than He already has been), Id find it hard to say we would be living under the same freedoms. Not that God and our freedoms are directly related but the men that founded our country did so under the banner of a Christian God.

Would our morals decline? maybe. But I guess that depends on what your definition of morals is. Do I think people would looting, pillaging, and raping our women? No. Religion doesnt make us civil. Religion, or spirituality, is, however, something found in almost all cultures. Canada may be able to help me with this one. Do you know any cultures that are void of religion all together?

I think the problem isn't spirituality but organized religion. If spirituality were erased from society I believe we would be a lot less interesting and a lot more scientific in our approach to everything. The creativity and imagination that is formed from the spiritual beliefs of different cultures has made us both diverse and unique. Beyond the discussion of God's existence I think that religion or spirituality in general is responsible for some of the greatest creations in History. (The Sistine Chapel, The Pyramids, countless paintings and sculptures, The Bible (as literature), St. Peter's Basilica, The Wailing Wall, and The Pantheon to name a few.)

I think any argument that would be absolutely for or against religion's positive/negative impact on society would have an equally strong argument against them.

Since there is no world religion, you can't really look at religion societally as anything more than another form of "tribe". Each tribe has it's own morals, goals, focuses, ignorance, etc...just like the nations/ethnicities of today.

I don't think it is possible that there can be "no religion" either. People have to believe in something. Some people refer to the socialization that happens in North Korea as "state religion", because people believe in the state and Kim Jong Il is considered semi-divine. Happened all the time in the past...the first cities ever built, around Mesopotamia, were ruled by Kings who were also the high priest.

If the religion isn't highly organized, it will just be something more along the lines of Taoism or pagan nature-reverence. Even then, a human being would find their purpose in the order of the universe, and live (or try to) by the "ethics" of preserving that order.


I often wonder what the world would be like if "natural law" dictated our ethics and morals. It would probably be somewhere between an ultra-capitalistic society and anarchy....or it would be feudalism.

I'm not blaming religion, I'm blaming the interpreters. There is nothing inherently wrong with religion. I have no problem with people and their faith, but when their interpretation crosses the line into forcing others to "believe or die" (a real simplification, I know), it's a real problem and it's been happening for centuries. But, no, I don't blame religion, I blame extremist interpretations.

I don't, and I think it would be suprising if there was. Some may be non-guiding when it comes to behaviour ie They may just dictate the 'history of life the universe and everything', but not contain moral instructions - not sure though

Humans by their nature need to understand. The 'universe' by its nature cannot be understood by humans. Cultures create religions to fill the gap.

We agree 100% then. The interpretaion is everything. That's what really bothers me about these whacko extremists. Why do they have to do it in the name of their "GOD" . . . why can't they just say their cat wanted them to do it or something? It makes us "normal" Christians look bad.

Interpretation is everything in many instances, religion simply being one of them. Its akin to the idea that all that rich people or those in government do is in order to keep part of the society down. Incorrect. It is simply in the interpretation.

A world with no religion wouldn't be terribly different from a world in which there was only one religion. Either way people will make an excuse to fight. I believe however that religion does help us as a model. I, as Im sure most of you are, am able to decide what is right and wrong, I've learned that one way or another, but history is a powerful thing and who's to say that without religion we'd be able to make those differentiations? I don't believe that 10,000 years ago, when man on Earth was basically the same as man on Earth today, the ideas of right and wrong were as obvious or universal.

In my opinion there will always be some inherantly good people and some inherantly bad people.

I think the difference would be what happens to the sheep in the middle. As much as I hate to say it, most of them are too stupid to live without an external moral guide. For that reason I think that religion is necessary in a society until it reaches a certain point of collective intelligence (if that's even possible).

The other problem is, "intelligence" can lead two well-natured, wise people to come to very different conclusions on right and wrong. For instance, one philosopher might argue that wealth redistribution (money, capital, resources, etc) is against natural law and therefore immoral and unethical....while a more communal/humanist philosopher might argue that it is in fact the moral obligation of a human to look after the needs of all others.

True. I didn't mean that we would all agree about everything...just that we could form a society based on similar morals that religion teaches (without the God stuff).

To fight wars, people need to group. Religion is a group. Therefore, religions contribute to wars.

I agree that people like Hitler use religion as a tool to justify themselves, but religion can also be a cause. How else could you explain wars where one side is all one religion? E.g., the Iraq civil conflict? Or the crusades?

There are a lot of other pretexts to those particularly mentioned conflicts. Yes, the most visible is religion, but the crusades had much to do with societal issues and general stagnation, and in Iraq, the sunnis are fighting because if they'll only rule a patch of desert if that country is divided up by religion/culture.

Come on Sluggo . . . I know you are anti-religion . . . but this is a ridiculous statement. I have come to expect better arguments from you.


To fight wars, people need to group. FCP is a group. Therefore, FCP contributes to wars

To fight wars, people need to group. The Boy Scouts is a group. Therefore, The Boy Scouts contribute to wars

To fight wars, people need to group. The Masons is a group. Therefore, The Masons contribute to wars

To fight wars, people need to group. The FHA (Future Homemakers of America) is a group. Therefore, The FHA contributes to wars

To fight wars, people need to group. The Blue Man Group is a group. Therefore, The Blue Man Group contributes to wars

To fight wars, people need to group. The Beach Boys is a group. Therefore, The Beach Boys contributes to wars

To fight wars, people need to group. The Girl Scouts is a group. Therefore, The Girl Scouts contribute to wars


. . . do I really need to keep going?

I actually believe it, no matter how strange it may sound. I'm not blaming religion for wars. I merely think that wars need organized groups. If we lived in a society of faceless individualism, it would be hard to form groups to fight wars.

Ever heard of the FCP army?

The Boy Scouts is a group that contributes to war. It's a premilitary training group.

Did you see what the girl scouts did in WWII?

The group most responsible for war is the nation-state.



I apologize for my undeveloped arguments and laziness. I know I sound like a troll.

Holy crap . . . I actually thought you were being serious until I got to the Girl Scouts comment . . . I mean everybody knows it was WWI . . . jeez!!

To fight wars, people need to group. The Blue Man Group is a group. Therefore, The Blue Man Group contributes to wars

Wow, just...wow! I'll never go to their Vegas show now. I don't support wars, therefore I don't support The Blue Man Group. DOWN WITH BLUE!!!

You think the founders of the US were Christian? Read this
(The italics quotes are the most dam.ning, but this piece makes it clear that the founding fathers were NOT Christian)

From This


George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)



John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
From:
The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.



Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:
"The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."
From:
Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823)



James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
From:
The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.



Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature."
From:
Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)



Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian.
From:
Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1790.



Speaking of the independence of the first 13 States, H.G. Wells in his Outline of History, says:
"It was a Western European civilization that had broken free from the last traces of Empire and Christendom; and it had not a vestige of monarchy left, and no State Religion... The absence of any binding religious tie is especially noteworthy. It had a number of forms of Christianity, its spirit was indubitably Christian; but, as a State document of 1796 expicity declared: 'The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.'"

The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy Hysteria.

The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty. It was reprinted in full in three newspapers - two in Philadelphia, one in New York City. There is no record of public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.

You have successfully highlighted the most famous Deist founders among a much larger number. I do believe that much "religiousness" was instilled into the founders legend during the 50's and 60's, however.

George Washington, however, was no Deist. He once said that no country could possibly hope to govern well without the guidance of the bible.

I agree that Washington was most likely more religious than the others, but it may be a stretch to call him a practicing Christian.

I didn't say that Hitlers war on jews was motivated by evolution, just that he was a fan of Darwin. Right? That is all I said, right? I mean, I typed it and you read it- wait,can you read?


You know, you have got a hard on for me that is just sadder than a headless puppy. You need help.


Here is one for you, and it's going to be stereotypical but I can deal with that. You are walking down a street at night in L.A., 5 big black guys are walking towards you. Would you be happy to know that they had just left church? Would you be even happier, would you feel safer, if they were humming " How Great Thou Art?"


You would be. I would be. Anyone would be. The world is a better place, in some places, because of christianity and God. Period.


There are extremist on both sides- believer and non- believer. To judge groups, people, by there collective extreme members is just stupid. If I was to judge FCP by Canada I would have to conclude that this is a forum full of assholes- it of course is not.







Hardly anyone is anymore.

I believe Hitler was also a fan of Newton. I hear that he believed in gravity.

Good to see you are still adding nothing. Keep up the good work. Armys of zombies love it.

You obviously insinuated that the fact that he was a fan of Darwin was somehow connected to his insane quest to exterminate the Jews. Don't pretend otherwise just because Canada said the opposite and then used crazy things like evidence and direct quotes to prove it.

No, I didn't- just pointed out the fact that he was a fan of darwinism- and, in fact directly because of that not a christian at all. No more than say, Jimmy Carter is christian. Do you see what I am getting at? Somehow I doubt it. Let me spell it out for you....... PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIAN IN POLITICAL CIRCLES ARE OFTEN LYING, TRYING TO GET VOTES. Or, gain acceptance for a radical movement, like, say, killing jews. One problem. I don't know any christians that want to kill jews. I know of extremists that claim christian affiliation but are not of christ at all, in any shape or form.

So, we have a bit of a quandary, and it is easily solved. I say that I am a Harvard Grad. I claim it, I even get jobs under that guise, I have the bumper sticker. If I murder someone is it then said that Harvard grads are murderous monsters? How about if 100 just like me do it?. No, we of course would not pin those killings on Harvard grads as a group.

Hitler was no christian. He was a godless monster- much like many godless monsters who have commited all kinds of atrocities, some in the name of god and some not. However, I defy you too find one christian who sits down and goes, " You know, Hitler was right on. " And if you find one, guess what? Not a christian.

So essentially you are arguing that killing in the name of god is simply not that. Any person evil enough to perform such a deed clearly is inspired by something other than god. Interesting.

I generally agree with you that these individuals are clearly acting outside the bounds of their religion. However do you ever think that without religion some of these deeds may never have occurred. Maybe the Jonestown mass suicide, or the crusades, or the spanish inquisition.

I think whenever you have men- or women- in power, and they commit acts, whatever those acts are are then attributed to whatever group/groups they are affiliated with, ESPECIALLY IF THE GROUP IS RELIGOUS.

Jesus said one thing regarding violence- turn the other cheek. In essence, hit me again, Ike. Christians as a rule refrain from violence, or at least they should be. A Christian may at times in a moment of weakness or in bad judgement become violent- get in a fight, whatever. They do not commit genocide and atrocities- when they do, that person who may have been a christian no longer is, he is doing Satans work at that point.

To answer your question- I think when you have men in high places and people willing to follow said men you have a recipe for disaster if those men are evil. Which is the case in all of these types of crimes against humanity.

Not to say George W. Bush is evil, but he did voluntarily command the military to commit violent acts. In fact Iraq never even attacked the US. Whatever his actions, they cannot be described as turning the other cheek. Would Jesus have approved or disapproved? Was it merely a moment of weakness? Do you still regard him as a Christian?

BTW I am not saying GWB went into Iraq for religious reasons, I am saying he is a professed Christian who commanded others to war (some would say unnecessarily).

George Bush as biblically defined is not a christian.

The two are not mutally exclusive. You can be a Christian and an Evolutionist at the same time.

You didn't point out that he wasn't a Christian. You may argue now that you were implying he wasn't Christian, but nobody here is fooled by that thinly veiled back-pedal.

Your implications were obvious and nobody missed them.

Coulter would be proud.

Maybe it's because your responses are jingoistic, superficial and lacking in any form of rational thought. Every time you type "case closed", it simply illustrates how ridiculous your views are.

Instead of just popping off, tell me why. Can't? Not suprised.

You cannot be a christian and BELIEVE THAT HUMANS WERE CREATED BY ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT GOD SAYS BIBLICALLY. Anyone claiming to be so is a liar and the truth is not in them.

See? It's that easy. In other words, I can look at a mans actions, his inclinations, his thoughts written on paper and tell you that in fact his actions had nothing to do with christianity- as was in Hitlers case.

My saying that he was a fan of Darwinism was most definitely implying that he was not a christian. I wasn't aware that I had to spell everything out for you, but I can do it if it's neccesary.

LMD, at what point did Jesus say what you capped up there? Directly?

I thought you were going to come down with "If they don't believe Jesus died on the cross for them."

But instead, you said Christians must believe in a literal reading of your favorite translation to be a "true" Christian, and I'll assume, to be "saved".

That, my misguided friend, is Blasphemy.

I think these people would whole-heartedly disagree that you cannot believe in Evolution and be a Christian

Or are you arrogant enough to suggest that they aren't Chrisitians?



You are beginning to catch on.

LMD believes there is only one 'correct' Christian belief system and luckily for him he gets to define what it is.

I think Canada did a fine job quoting your stupid rants. You're so arrogant and smug about your point of view, it's sickening. See you in Hell. If it actually exists.

A debate on Christian philosophy is OK by me; but my interest is really within the religion, not a yes/no on the whole thing.

Hitler did use the Superman / evolution theory to justify ridding the world of the Jews. The Master Race was a natural conclusion of survival of the fittest and evolution.

Yes he said many times he was Christian/catholic. But his actions were more closely tied to evolution.




As far as the OP. We have tried an experiment in this last decade called Communism, the belief that there is no God, that religion is the crutch for the weak, an opiate for the people.

Last count that resulted in close to 300 million deaths, in 75 years

Christianity's, albeit horrible, record is closer to 5-6 million, in 2000+ years. ( I no longer have the statistics for this, but known population figures do not support much higher numbers for crusade, inquesition etc. These numbers came from a debate between Walter Martin and Madeline O'Hare in the early 80's I believe. So the communism death count is probably much higher.)

So the answer is, Religion does less harm then atheism.

Belief that Jesus died on the cross is not enough- it never has been. What did he teach? The book, which happens to include his teachings and is inspired by God- what did it teach?

The christians for evolution thing? Not Christians. What a Christian is is a whole other argument.

I have not been the first person on this site to say this, CrowTrobot and Yorke have said it as well- most " Christians " have no clue what Christianity is about or what it requires. Now, Canada will call that arrogance- it's not, it's just truth. He said, a few times in the bible, that many would say that they did wonderous works in his name and he will say- let me just give you the scripture, in Matthew 7

15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
[16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
[17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
[19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


This is a great scripture- it leaves no room for wiggle. I should have included the first few verses as well, where it says judge not lest ye be judged. People- especially people that don't follow the bible correctly- love to throw this out there as proof that you should not tell them they are wrong- interesting, but incorrect, because it says rigth below it that by your fruits I will know you. So, while it may sound arrogant it doesn't take much to deduct whether or not a person is a christian.

He that doeth the will of my father- there is so much involved in that statement, a lifetime of battling the flesh, self-denial, persecution, change of the inner man- most people can't do it.








I did not have the numbers either. Thank you, Balloon Guy. This genuinely helps the B.S. that christianity is the reason for all war. In fact, I believe that the oopposite is true.

I love the fact that two christians on the same friggin side of the argument can't even get along enough to agree. And equating Atheists to communists is ridiculous.

But so much in the above is ridiculous I don't even know where to start.

No, go ahead, start. Usually not knowing is just that- not knowing. So, challenge, refute, argue- unless you can't, in which by all means make a statement and then leave.

FYP

Inheriting traits has nothing to do with accepting the theory of evolution. People have known for millenia that tall parents have tall children and smart parents have smart children, generally speaking.