I'm trying to get away from the same old circular discussion . . . GOD exists . . . No he doesn't . . . Prove he doesn't . . . Prove he does . . . blah blah blah. So I thought this would get us thinking a little differently without the same arguments.

The question is: If you could REALLY know the truth, if GOD does or doesn't exist, would you want to know? Think a little before responding. Christians, atheists, agnostics . . . whatever . . . think about what it would mean if you were right OR if you were wrong. Be open minded to both sides as to how it would or wouldn't change you life if you wanted to know.

Discuss.

There is no way this is not going to create the same old discussions. The atheists and those that believe in a higher power both 'already know the answer'. It just happens that one of them is wrong. How do you expect this to not be circular? Unless the FCPers who are agnostic want to answer. Otherwise we will run into the same old discussion.

Your probably right. I guess I'm just trying to give the "regulars" in this forum enough credit that they can be objective and mature enough to actually consider the "other sides" opinion. Maybe I'm wrong in hoping that.

Nah...you arent wrong. But the nature of the question means that someone would have to admit to being agnostic. If we dont truly believe we are right, whatever our stance on the issue, then why have we been debating? If the truly agnostic FCPers want to comment i think they could provide some interesting feedback. But as for the 'atheists' and 'believers in a higher power', they PROBABLY will not be able to respond to this type of question without admitting that they arent really sure.

ding ding ding ding . . . we have a winner . . .

It depends...would knowing there is a God come with the knowledge of what He/She/It expects of us? If not, then what's the point?

Personally, I think that if there is a God there is a 50/50 chance he made the Universe and then took a step back...and doesn't give a shit what we do...in which case it doesn't really matter if he exists at all.

You are right . . . what would be the point if you didn't know what is expected? If nothing would be expected . . . then there is no point. Of course if you found out there is no GOD then nothing would be expected, right?

Is that something you just pulled out of the air or do you have reason to believe so? That seems like something you picked up in a philosophy class somewhere. God as the Clock-maker who created 'the clock' and just sits back and lets it work. It seems that you have some deeper issue with God, if he does exist, that would make you say that.

I think most would.

Obviously for any camp to KNOW they are correct would be acceptable and doesn't warrant much discussion.

I think an athiest or agnostic would be happy to know that a God ( and the 'a' there extends your question to correctly allow us to remove preconceived views) as it obviously allows them to 'get to know' said deity and ensure the rewards of doing so.

As an athiest I would quite happily eat humble pie to be invited to the party.

A theist knowing that their God is not actually real, but another God is, would like to make the 'transition' for the same reasons. There would be no change of mindset once accepting 'the truth', at the simplest of levels a name change.

I think the hardest category would be a theist learning that there is no God at all, as to know this is giving up a lot of comfort and to worship a deity in a Godless universe does no harm. <Insert Crow's big picture response to 'no harm' here> I would assume that this is the scenario/group combination that would result in the highest number of 'keep me in the dark' responses

Maybe the initial shock of realizing that their is no God would be crushing emotionally, but I think the long term effects of someone, previously atheistic, realizing that they had rejected God would cause so much intellectual and rational trauma, they would have a far more difficult time dealing with the realization. The theist will simply revert to believing what is visible and provable scientifically, something that is much easier to do. It is more difficult, I feel, for a analytical atheist to garner faith than it is for a theist to garner scientific process.

One man's truth is another man's lie.

Why? If we use the Christian God as an example, the (now no longer) athiest's point of view is "I was wrong, but I have been forgiven so all is well". It would be the same as anybody 'discovering' God.

All 'born-agains' describe it as a joyous process.

Wow . . . you really put a lot of thought into that . . . thanks.
(Yes this is sarcasm . . . in case you were wondering ).

I assure you that there is nothing joyous about realizing that their is a Holy God, one of whom created you and desires you to live a Holy life; once your sin is revealed and you have realized your own filth and rebellion against that God. The pain and anguish that comes from that is initially almost overwhelming for the true convert. This frilly 'God is love' and just believe and you will be saved 'watered-down' Christianity is not what a true relationship with God is about. I do not claim perfection or that I have it all figured out but my experience of conversion was one of deep regret of my former life and the things I did to 'spit' in the face of God. God is forgiving and merciful and I wouldnt trade it. But it is not a joyous process by any means. if anything, it should be a process of pain and anguish, stripping yourself of all your sin and your former life. Everything you are is changed and 'reborn'. It is much harder to be a Christian and love/serve God in all that you do, than to just live how I want with no consequence. Ill be honest, Id be living a much easier life if I wasnt a christian. But I cant deny who God is...

I digress...coming from someone who once lived his life without belief and now in belief I have seen both sides. Im not sure about your situation but it sounds like you have lived a short time if any on the christian side. you may have a creme puffed view of christianity that is inaccurate because of televangelists and milk-toast christians you have encountered.

Yeah . . . I think atheists would probably have a harder time just from the self-examination standpoint. It would force them to look at the way they have been living (without a GOD) and would probably fill them with tons of regret.

I do think Christians would have a difficult time as well because then it would take the "purpose" out of their lives.

So . . . yeah . . . both sides (so to speak) would have issues, but I think atheists would have a harder time adjusting their life.

Christians could just start living for themselves like they did when they were 'lost' so to speak.

titty bars every night, drinking every night, pretty much whatever.

Your right . . . some probably would. I don't know that I would honestly. Of course I'm married so the whole nudy bar scene doesn't tempt me, but like you I wasn't always a Christian. So, I have seen both sides as well . . . I prefer this side (as opposed to the "dark side" - lol).

I used the titty bar as an example. It would just lower most people's moral standards and they would do things without 'eternal' or 'spiritual' standards or consequence.

That's my own personal belief...not pulled from anywhere but my head. My coming to that conclusion has been influenced by many things, not just one religion, philosophy, science etc. In my opinion it's the most logical explanation.

It's funny you assume I have some deeper issue with God. Shows once again that you automatically think anyone that disagrees with you does so for a specific reason (not just because they think for themselves).

true . . . I agree

I honestly don't think anything is expected of me now. Why don't I go out and rape, pillage, plunder, etc?

I live my life by a few things that (unfortunately) most people don't fully understand. Empathy and respect. Obviously I'm not perfect, but by trying to put myself in the other guy's shoes as much as possible, I lead a life that's just as moral as the life of 99% of religious people.

Nice post. Seriously.

Personally I was raised a Christian and never went through the retrospective process. I always believed and had no former life to regret.

I did go through a whole emotional upheaval when I became an athiest after discovering that I had been deceived and was living a lie (my belief of course not a statement of fact - keeping it civil you know)

However I won't go into that as getting into a 'My pain was worse than your pain' debate is pointless and disrespects us both. I'll just state that transitions of this type are tough, regardless of direction.

So you've shown me that my initial thoughts were oversimplified. Nice work



Hee hee. So, it's not a "we are right, you are wrong argument", it's a "it would be easy for us but really hard for you argument."

Same teams different words

Likewise, I respect your position and think that we can agree that any realization that alters our entire way of living would be difficult.

LOL . . . actually I think both "sides" would have a hard time . . . I just think atheists would have a harder time adjusting.

As a christian thinking about this . . . I think it would be really hard on me personally if I found out therre was no GOD. It would change the way I think and react to all kinds of circumstances. So yeah, from a Christian standpoint it would be a blow.




ditto

It would be interesting to see how many would continue on as before. How many theists would still go to church and how many athiests/agnostics would still argue in religion forums

My thoughts are pretty much similar to Canada's (the poster, not the country). I would have zero problem accepting the existence of a god if god was revealed to me. The difficulty in transition would be largely based on god's reaction to me being athiest and what was now expected of me. If it's a case of "Oops, I effed up, but now I'll be a good Christian" then it wouldn't be much of a big deal provided that I'm spared the eternal wrath of an enraged deity. I did the Christian thing for a while and was pretty good at it. I could do it again if I had any reason to. It's not like once you stop believing in god, you start torturing kittens for kicks.

Obviously I can have no way of knowing what the impact of suddenly having contact with a god would be. It would all depend on the flavor of god I get.



I bet the number would be surprising. Between habit and denial, a lot of people would be locked in.

Honestly . . . that was my goal with this thread. We've all argued til' we're blue in the face. I just thought it would be interesting to see how we would feel if we (individually) found out we were wrong.

Plus this has been much more civil . . . lol.

I'd be happy, granted I could get into heaven. And I still might be happy knowing I could go to hell.

First of all, I don't think God intended for the Christian to be anguished, JadeTiger. You said that when you think of the times you spit in God's face, it makes you feel horrible. You then made fun of happy Christians. Basically, saying that if they didn't feel horrible they probably weren't really Christians. I strongly disagree. When Jesus died on the cross, Jade, he took your, my, Foose's, Sluggo's, and every other poster's sins as his own. Meaning, those times you spit in God's face, it really wasn't you doing it. It was Jesus. Perfection became pitiful so pitiful could become perfect. That is why I am happy and have never viewed my Faith as painful. We should have the "joy of the Lord" to use a church term, and when we sin and ask forgiveness, forget about it, because we didn't commit the sin. Jesus did. He felt that pain, so we wouldn't have to. If you think your Christianity should be ful of pain and anguish, you lessen Jesus' sacrifice for you.

AS for the Foose's original question. I wouldn't want to know if there wasn't a God, because I would completely throw my life away. You'd probably never see me outside of the strip club or brothel ! In essence, I wouldn't be doing anything wrong, but I wouldn't ever get anything done either.

Very interesting question. Your parents existed when you were a kid....did that keep you from breaking the rules? If the penalty was potential eternal damnation, would it be different? Would you really believe it even if it was revealed? My head hurts.

Yes, it would be different. We can apply cost-benefit analysis to both scenarios. With parents, the penalties are small and often not enforced. With God, the penalty is eternal and infinite, and always enforced.

That was beautiful- inaccurate, but beautiful. I need to put together alot of stuff for this one. I like your sentiments,alot, and there is potential here. Give me a day or so and I will post some things for you to think about.

I think a lot of athiests would welcome the "invitation to the party." For most of us it would confirm in a tangible way what we have been searching for in an abstract sort of way. Peace and order might ensue because of the teachings of most belief systems

A lot of Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, would be devistated. Their complete worldview would be shaken. Anarchy is probable. Order would ensue possibly when a "ruler, dictator" takes control by force.

I for one would be terrified if I was shown irrefutable evidence that there was no God.

Um, wouldn't this happen even if one of these religions was true? The rest would be devastated?

Sure, I was just going for the God/no God argument. A lot less anarchy in that case, but sure, lots of devistated people.

So essentially, a ton of people would be devastated no matter the truth.

I would love to know.

Just like everyone else here, I feel like I have a pretty good idea, but it would be nice to know for sure.

I wouldn't be terrified- probably relieved. I mean, believing in God ain't a picnic, especially in the biblical sense.

On some level I have always wished I had to answer to no one. Life would be a whole lot easier for sure.

Relieved that your soul isn't eternal?

My only thought is that you already know you're going to hell.

I have been struggling with my relationship with God and life for years- I have never made that a secret. I will give you a pass because you are relatively new.


And, Bingo. I don't really feel that God's going to go out of his way to accomodate a gambling junkie. For a long time I felt out of place in my church because of who I am inside- recently things have been changing a little so I went to worship today.


It was nice- I will go back next week. I didn't feel alive like I do at a table with cards, but I didn't feel like a piece of **** that didn't belong, either.

Sounds like you are struggling with how you view yourself . . . not necessarily how GOD views you Lois. I don't have to tell you that GOD views us all as his creations. You know that Jesus died for your sins Lois so why in the world in the world would you say this . . . I don't really feel that God's going to go out of his way to accomodate a gambling junkie. For a long time I felt out of place in my church because of who I am inside?

We all have demons. Self doubt and feelings of worthlessness come from the enemy Lois . . . not from GOD. Go back to the word my friend . . . you know I'm right!

Sigh- if it were only that easy. God does forgive, because of the sacrifice Jesus made. However, what does he say about a lukewarm offering. " Because you are neither hot nor cold I will sprew you out " God doesn't mess around- either you are going to serve him or not. I cannot serve him as he would like when I am lurching into worship just on time, not because I woke up but because I never slept, and all I can think about is Full house over Full house, the Full house that I caught to beat the straight, how I could have played this different or saved bets here and there, or gained bets here and there.

That kind of sacrifice is no sacrifice at all. It's just barely showing up. It's not good enough, and I know God thinks that.

As far as feelings of worthlessness? Where did you get that? Or self doubt? I know exactly who I am, that's sort of the point. I can look at myself and go " Geez, you know, I might as well just stay home and not even bother- what I am willing to sacrifice for God is just not enough."

Ever heard the song" All of self and none of thee?" It's sort of a progression that it illustrates,and each verse it changes. Some of self and some of thee, less of self and more of thee, None of self and all of thee. I am very driven by self- I am barely in the some stage, and really I know that when I was pretending to be in the none stage I was doing just that- pretending. I had't really changed the inner man, which is what I take to heaven with me, I don't get to take the facade. In all actuality that would be hell right now.

Sometimes, FOOSE, you feel bad because you damn well should.

Lois . . . that was the most honest sincere post I think I have ever read from you. Thank you . . . you have humbled me. I know exactly what you are saying. What you are feeling is the conviction of Christ Jesus . . . I know you know that already but it helps to hear it sometimes anyway .

Lukewarm christians are a dime a dozen. BUT the mere fact that you recognize this will eventually bring you that much closer to God. I have been there before. Why do I even get up and go to church when all I do is doze during the sermon? The only reason I want to go to my Sunday school class is to get a free breakfast! I have been there many times. BUT . . . the key is . . . you keep going . . . right. Try to figure out why you keep going. That is a big part of your progression as a Christian. The "why" is everything. Feelings of inadequecy in God's eyes is normal. Face it . . . in God's eyes none of us would ever make it to heaven on our own.

Have you ever met a person that was exactly what you wanted to be as a Christian? I have. I have looked at many people and just thought, WOW, I wish I were more like them. But the truth is that all those people you see at some time were lukewarm themselves. They weren't always on fire so to speak. It takes time. It just doesn't happen over night.

Sincerely, good luck Lois. You seem to have some struggles with your faith. But I know you will overcome them. Sounds stupid because I don't know you . . . but I will pray for you. I don't mean that in a condescending way. I mean that as a borther in Christ I will pray that you will perservere through your struggles.

I know this thread is 3 pages long, but I have no time to read it right now. I stumbled across the OP and I think it's actually a great topic so I wanted to respond.

My answer is yes, if there was some way that I could know the truth about God and his existence, heaven and hell, etc. I would absolutely like to know. However, I don't really know what it would take to convince me and that's the main key here. I personally don't take many things on faith alone. I was raised Catholic, but I've since pretty much rejected that. I believe there is a higher power or "God" out there somewhere, but I really have no idea what to think about things like Heaven and Hell, etc. I'd love to actually KNOW where I stand. I'd love to know the truth about God and if there is a God I'd love to know what he wants from me, but the bottom line is that I just don't see anyway for that to happen short of God coming to visit me or something.

I'll try to get back to this thread later on tonight and maybe try to join the discussion, I think it's an interesting question.



I really like what Speedz has to say here. Especially the 2nd paragraph. I tend to have a similar outlook on how I should be living my life, though I've never sat down and defined it like that. I basically just sum it up as always trying to "do the right thing." I like the empathy and respect and putting yourself in other people's shoes. Good way of explaining it.

I seriously have to go now, I'll get to more comments on this thread later.

Thank you.

the truth is that you are an animal, no different from the other animals on this earth except that you are smart enough to think that maybe theres a life after this one. Dont think you are an animal? take a look around...you have arms legs blood you eat sleep, f&uck and shyt like all the other animals on earth...

when a lion dies it doesnt go to a special place for lions up in the sky somewhere based on whether he was a good lion on earth.

and neither do you

only difference is that man is smart enough to make a choice whether he accepts that reality or believes a myth that he spends his whole life nurturing and following