Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter
Preflop: Hero is Button with Q:diamond:, K:diamond:.
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, 5 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, UTG calls.
Flop: (7.50 SB) Q:heart:, 4:heart:, 7:diamond: (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.
Turn: (7.25 BB) 2:heart: (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.
River: (9.25 BB) K:heart: (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero ???
with 2 pair on the river and no heart in hand... is the pot big enough to make a crying call for one more bet?
Full Version: kq suited hand...
For starters, I'm not too enamored with this PF call. You should dump on the turn. For your call to be right on the end you have to win this once every ten times, and I'm not sure if that's happening here with the four flush and I really think the villian has a set or rockets
There was a thread that I posted in before where I thought KQ was worth calling two cold.
Smash and wrto were right that it's not a good idea, although they are suited,
and i think with three in the pot, it's not a terrible hand. I would have check called the flop and ditched on the turn.
Smash and wrto were right that it's not a good idea, although they are suited,
and i think with three in the pot, it's not a terrible hand. I would have check called the flop and ditched on the turn.
but the the pre flop raiser utg+1 folded on the flop utg limped preflop and called one more bet. But check raised (3-bet)the flop.
I will go against KDawg and say I like the call on the flop.
call the turn
fold the river
call the turn
fold the river
I don't think they bet the river without a high heart. Your call on the turn would mean you can easily be drawing to a good flush, at which point they'd check-call since you've made it drawing to a hand they couldn't bluff, that you would raise with, and where his river bet would have no expectation without a lock of his own.
I think you fold. I can be more than 90% certain that I lose this pot with that 2 pair. I'd feel much better about a non-heart card lower than a king. The improvement it offers is completely illusory, as a junk flush draw doesn't check-3-bet a 3-way pot, neither does AQ (MAYBE with Ah they do; very rare still). The junk 2 pair doesn't bet the river after your turn call but wishes to make a crying call instead, set 7's does the same... I have trouble correlating the river action with their flop action. Tough hand to read.
I would raise that turn... he's out of position making a "courtesy bet" to follow that 3-bet. It would cost the same to see a showdown where you have a snowball's chance in hell, and your raise-call may represent a free card play, so that heart scares him as much as you since I put him on a made hand with a redraw. If you raise the turn and he 3-bets, you can lay down there, if he calls and bets the river, you can lay down there, and you will sometimes get folds or win the "cheap" showdown when you get it.
EDIT: Aces with Ah seems like the best read ventured thus far. Dunno how I missed it. Slowplayed preflop, odd line for aces then, not 3-betting after the limp got raised.
I think you fold. I can be more than 90% certain that I lose this pot with that 2 pair. I'd feel much better about a non-heart card lower than a king. The improvement it offers is completely illusory, as a junk flush draw doesn't check-3-bet a 3-way pot, neither does AQ (MAYBE with Ah they do; very rare still). The junk 2 pair doesn't bet the river after your turn call but wishes to make a crying call instead, set 7's does the same... I have trouble correlating the river action with their flop action. Tough hand to read.
I would raise that turn... he's out of position making a "courtesy bet" to follow that 3-bet. It would cost the same to see a showdown where you have a snowball's chance in hell, and your raise-call may represent a free card play, so that heart scares him as much as you since I put him on a made hand with a redraw. If you raise the turn and he 3-bets, you can lay down there, if he calls and bets the river, you can lay down there, and you will sometimes get folds or win the "cheap" showdown when you get it.
EDIT: Aces with Ah seems like the best read ventured thus far. Dunno how I missed it. Slowplayed preflop, odd line for aces then, not 3-betting after the limp got raised.
ewww i think a raise on the turn is very very bad
well.. you guys probably read this already..its a post by ed miller on 2+2..
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...=7&o=14&fpart=1
after reading this post..i decided not to fold often for one bet on the river..
even when it seems hopeless. So yes i did call. But was it really that bad of a call. If i lose..i lose one more big bet..but if I win its the whole pot.
thanks for everyones input though. Just wanted to hear different opinions and views on this subject..and i got it.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...=7&o=14&fpart=1
after reading this post..i decided not to fold often for one bet on the river..
even when it seems hopeless. So yes i did call. But was it really that bad of a call. If i lose..i lose one more big bet..but if I win its the whole pot.
thanks for everyones input though. Just wanted to hear different opinions and views on this subject..and i got it.
QUOTE (Absolute)
I will go against KDawg and say I like the call on the flop.
call the turn
fold the river
call the turn
fold the river
I don't have a problem with the flop raise at all, in fact that was probably his best move the entire hand. For his PF call to be correct he'd need ***at least*** one cold caller before him after the utg+1 PF raise.
QUOTE (Absolute)
ewww i think a raise on the turn is very very bad
Hmm, I see it as better than a calldown, given the flop action.
Calldown: 2 BB, no fold equity, no reads
Turn Raise: 2 BB, only bet into if beaten, scare card bluff
You eliminate the chance of getting bluffed vs. all but the best/LAGgiest/ballsiest players, get some fold equity essentially as a freeroll.
I think you can argue a turn fold or a turn raise much easier than a turn call. A check/3-bet hand on the flop isn't one you can realistically have a redraw against here, nor the best hand. However, a flush draw is one hand that you have represented, and the flop action implies a made hand, not a draw from your opponent. It's simply an evaluation of your fold equity vs. those 2 bets, with a factor for how often you get a checkdown on the river and come out best (which is small, focus on fold equity). Out of position, easy fold. With position, making a play or folding can be even depending on the opponent. I don't think this pot's big enough for that bad of a calldown though, when someone has you beat and bets through 4 hearts on the river. I also think that the turn can't be called due to your complete lack of redraws to hands that beat a set and drawing slim vs. top 2.
is the pot big enough to make a crying call for one more bet?
Yes.
I think you can argue a turn fold or a turn raise much easier than a turn call.
Only if you're drunk or retarded.
The OP played it fine.
QUOTE (Smasharoo)
I think you can argue a turn fold or a turn raise much easier than a turn call.
Only if you're drunk or retarded.
The OP played it fine.
Only if you're drunk or retarded.
The OP played it fine.
Smash, what's wrong with raising the turn, representing the flush and going for a free showdown?
It costs the same as calling down, but has a small amount of fold equity.
If its raised back on the turn its easy enough to give up on
It costs the same as calling down, but has a small amount of fold equity.
For your opponent whe he three-bets. Not for you.
If its raised back on the turn its easy enough to give up on
Like I was saying.
See the point, yet? Why would you put yourself i a situation where you might end up folding the best hand?
WHY?
Also to to belabor things you guys miss when you try to argue for nonsensicl plays like this one, what are you possibly folding with a raise that has you beat? Nothing. What you will do is fold hands you're way ahead of where you wouldn't rather get another bet out of him on the river.
Folding a worse hand winning less money is bad. Having a worse hand raise you and cause you to fold is horrible. Having a better hand call you and then bet the river is horrible.
What's the good outcome possible from this raise, again?
QUOTE (Smasharoo)
It costs the same as calling down, but has a small amount of fold equity.
For your opponent whe he three-bets. Not for you.
What hand is going to 3 bet the turn into a 3 flush board that doesn't beat a pair of queens.
Fair enough if he's a maniac, don't raise the turn but otherwise a 3 bet on the turn is going to have you killed
QUOTE (Smasharoo)
If its raised back on the turn its easy enough to give up on
Like I was saying.
See the point, yet? Why would you put yourself i a situation where you might end up folding the best hand?
WHY?
Also to to belabor things you guys miss when you try to argue for nonsensicl plays like this one, what are you possibly folding with a raise that has you beat? Nothing. What you will do is fold hands you're way ahead of where you wouldn't rather get another bet out of him on the river.
Folding a worse hand winning less money is bad. Having a worse hand raise you and cause you to fold is horrible. Having a better hand call you and then bet the river is horrible.
What's the good outcome possible from this raise, again?
The good is that it costs you no more than calling the turn and river. It brings the benifits of charging draws extra and introduces some fold equity, albeit not a lot and finally it gets an extra bet in if you hit a monster.
For example if the opponent had AKo with the A
it charges him to draw at the flush, the fold equity is small however a very tight opponent may fold his black KQ, AQ, KK or AA, and finally if you do improve, you've got in an extra bet.
The risk side is getting 3 bet on the turn or bet into on the river, but as I said above if that happens your beat.
I'm not saying that the raise on the turn is the correct play always, but in the right circumstances, generally a tight skilled opponent, it has its merits
I'm not saying that the raise on the turn is the correct play always, but in the right circumstances, generally a tight skilled opponent, it has its merits
No, it really doesn't, at all.
It's not close. It's not debatalbe. Raising is just terrible. Horrible. Mindbogglingly bad.
Stop being stubborn for no particular reason other than you have trouble saying "Yeah, I was wrong"
QUOTE (Smasharoo)
I'm not saying that the raise on the turn is the correct play always, but in the right circumstances, generally a tight skilled opponent, it has its merits
No, it really doesn't, at all.
It's not close. It's not debatalbe. Raising is just terrible. Horrible. Mindbogglingly bad.
Stop being stubborn for no particular reason other than you have trouble saying "Yeah, I was wrong"
OK so maybe I am wrong, but what is the major differences between the above hand and the QQ hand in here...
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/a...d=12911&m_id=45
I'll quote it for you to save you some work as i can see your getting quite tetchy and in your talk-down-to-the-little-people-with-sarcasm-mode.
How is the non-smoking going by the way? Never did wish the best of luck, so good luck!
Seriously though, I know the boards and plays are different but what am I missing between the above hand and the one Daniel describes here
QUOTE (Daniel)
A player raises from first position preflop, and you make it three bets from middle position with Q-Q, and take the flop heads up. The flop comes K 9 
6 . Your opponent checks, and you bet. Now, he raises you. Let’s say for this example that you decide to just call the raise and see what develops on the turn (reraising is another option here, but I’ll save that play for another column). The turn brings the 2 , and your opponent bets into you. What should you do?
Well, it depends on a multitude of variables. What could your opponent have? There are several possibilities to consider: A-K, K-Q, or K-X, for that matter; also, 6-6, 9-9, A-A, K-9, and so on. These are all hands that have you drawing dead to two outs, but what else could he have? Could he also have a flush draw? Possibly a hand like Q-J, J-10, Q-10, or 8-7? How about A-9, J-J, or 10-10? These are all hands you can beat.
This is when you’ll need your poker skills the most. You’ll have to go into your memory bank, and think through the action on this hand, and compare it to hands you’ve seen your opponent play in the past. Does this player play lots of hands, or is he usually very tight from early position? Is this player capable of making a move like this without having a king or better?
Once you’ve run all of this through your mind, it’s time to take action. Let’s say for this example that you decide there is a 50 percent chance that your queens are good; what should you do? I’m guessing that most of you are saying call on the turn and again on the river. That has to be the best way to play the hand, right? Wrong.
There is an even better way to play this hand if you decide to play it at all. Why not raise? Think about it: If you are going to call the turn and the river regardless, raising costs you no extra money (unless your opponent is a timid player and might check a king on the river if a scare card comes). Once you’ve raised on the turn, you can simply check down the river if you are worried you are beat, or that you won’t get called by a worse hand in this spot.
The beauty of playing it this way is that if you happen to be wrong and your opponent does have a king, you’ll win an extra bet on the river if you catch a third queen. And if you are right that your opponent has a draw, you’ll be getting extra value from the hand by making him pay two bets to beat you rather than just one. And, heck, if your opponent is worried his king is no good, you may even be able to get him to lay down the best hand! All in all, if you are going to call him down anyway, raising is a win-win situation.
Of course, if you raise and are reraised, you will likely have to fold to the third bet and lose your opportunity to catch the third queen. However, you can be pretty sure that if you are reraised at this point, your opponent has you beat.
9 6 . Your opponent checks, and you bet. Now, he raises you. Let’s say for this example that you decide to just call the raise and see what develops on the turn (reraising is another option here, but I’ll save that play for another column). The turn brings the 2 , and your opponent bets into you. What should you do?
Well, it depends on a multitude of variables. What could your opponent have? There are several possibilities to consider: A-K, K-Q, or K-X, for that matter; also, 6-6, 9-9, A-A, K-9, and so on. These are all hands that have you drawing dead to two outs, but what else could he have? Could he also have a flush draw? Possibly a hand like Q-J, J-10, Q-10, or 8-7? How about A-9, J-J, or 10-10? These are all hands you can beat.
This is when you’ll need your poker skills the most. You’ll have to go into your memory bank, and think through the action on this hand, and compare it to hands you’ve seen your opponent play in the past. Does this player play lots of hands, or is he usually very tight from early position? Is this player capable of making a move like this without having a king or better?
Once you’ve run all of this through your mind, it’s time to take action. Let’s say for this example that you decide there is a 50 percent chance that your queens are good; what should you do? I’m guessing that most of you are saying call on the turn and again on the river. That has to be the best way to play the hand, right? Wrong.
There is an even better way to play this hand if you decide to play it at all. Why not raise? Think about it: If you are going to call the turn and the river regardless, raising costs you no extra money (unless your opponent is a timid player and might check a king on the river if a scare card comes). Once you’ve raised on the turn, you can simply check down the river if you are worried you are beat, or that you won’t get called by a worse hand in this spot.
The beauty of playing it this way is that if you happen to be wrong and your opponent does have a king, you’ll win an extra bet on the river if you catch a third queen. And if you are right that your opponent has a draw, you’ll be getting extra value from the hand by making him pay two bets to beat you rather than just one. And, heck, if your opponent is worried his king is no good, you may even be able to get him to lay down the best hand! All in all, if you are going to call him down anyway, raising is a win-win situation.
Of course, if you raise and are reraised, you will likely have to fold to the third bet and lose your opportunity to catch the third queen. However, you can be pretty sure that if you are reraised at this point, your opponent has you beat.
Seriously though, I know the boards and plays are different but what am I missing between the above hand and the one Daniel describes here
He's not looking at a board with a completed draw on it, he's looking at a board where it's quite likely someone is *on a draw*.
That said, I think it's the wrong play there, too.
The beauty of playing it this way is that if you happen to be wrong and your opponent does have a king, you’ll win an extra bet on the river if you catch a third queen.
One of the dumber things I've seen a pro write theory-wise. The beauty of it is that if you hit your 1 in 22 shot you get an extra bet, but if you get three-bet (likely to happen from a worse hand more than one time win 22)
you can fold it?
What?
He's not looking at a board with a completed draw on it, he's looking at a board where it's quite likely someone is *on a draw*.
That's a point I think is in favour of raising our hand. Our pre and post flop play can represent the flush draw and therefore increases our fold equity and decreases the likelyhood of a 3 bet being second to a pair of queens.
That said, I think it's the wrong play there, too.
If you think its wrong there too, I'll stop discussing it now as we're only going to go in circles
The beauty of playing it this way is that if you happen to be wrong and your opponent does have a king, you’ll win an extra bet on the river if you catch a third queen.
One of the dumber things I've seen a pro write theory-wise. The beauty of it is that if you hit your 1 in 22 shot you get an extra bet, but if you get three-bet (likely to happen from a worse hand more than one time win 22)
you can fold it?
What?
agreed - I don't think it should be there as a consideration for adding weight to the argument. It is simply, a very small added bonus. I hope Daniel misrepresented this and doesn't think it is a selling point of the raise on this particular hand.
That's a point I think is in favour of raising our hand. Our pre and post flop play can represent the flush draw and therefore increases our fold equity and decreases the likelyhood of a 3 bet being second to a pair of queens.
That said, I think it's the wrong play there, too.
If you think its wrong there too, I'll stop discussing it now as we're only going to go in circles
The beauty of playing it this way is that if you happen to be wrong and your opponent does have a king, you’ll win an extra bet on the river if you catch a third queen.
One of the dumber things I've seen a pro write theory-wise. The beauty of it is that if you hit your 1 in 22 shot you get an extra bet, but if you get three-bet (likely to happen from a worse hand more than one time win 22)
you can fold it?
What?
agreed - I don't think it should be there as a consideration for adding weight to the argument. It is simply, a very small added bonus. I hope Daniel misrepresented this and doesn't think it is a selling point of the raise on this particular hand.
That's a point I think is in favour of raising our hand. Our pre and post flop play can represent the flush draw and therefore increases our fold equity and decreases the likelyhood of a 3 bet being second to a pair of queens.
It also increases the chances of a *made flush* just calling and then betting the river.
What do you do when they just call and then bet the river?
Fold?
Do you see how it's not the same cost as calling down?
QUOTE (Smasharoo)
That's a point I think is in favour of raising our hand. Our pre and post flop play can represent the flush draw and therefore increases our fold equity and decreases the likelyhood of a 3 bet being second to a pair of queens.
It also increases the chances of a *made flush* just calling and then betting the river.
What do you do when they just call and then bet the river?
Fold?
Do you see how it's not the same cost as calling down?
It's a very good point, and is the probably the hardest thing about this line.
I know you're going go off your tits on this, but I would fold the river if bet into. You've made the play and done everything to sell your hand as stronger than top pair.
If somebody can bet into those 4 cards plus whatever river card comes, after that pre + post flop betting and being raised on the turn, I'll give them credit for beating a pair of Qs.
This is what I'm thinking when i said above that you would prefer this play against a tight player.
If somebody can bet into those 4 cards plus whatever river card comes, after that pre + post flop betting and being raised on the turn, I'll give them credit for beating a pair of Qs.
What if they miss a draw but make a weaker pair on the river and bet out?
Do you see my point about not putting yourself in a situation where you can be outplayed often by mistake by your opponnent with no real upside?
QUOTE (Smasharoo)
If somebody can bet into those 4 cards plus whatever river card comes, after that pre + post flop betting and being raised on the turn, I'll give them credit for beating a pair of Qs.
What if they miss a draw but make a weaker pair on the river and bet out?
Do you see my point about not putting yourself in a situation where you can be outplayed often by mistake by your opponnent with no real upside?
I most certainly do.
Its a very good point. An excellent point, and its why calling down is always correct.
It's also why I said the play has merits against a tight skilled player where he is not going to 'outplay you by mistake' and there is a small chance that you can induce him to make a mistake and fold an equal or slightly better hand.
OK I'm willing to say that I'm wrong here in the vast, vast majority (you can replace vast, vast majority with 'all' if it makes you happy :wink: ) of cases, but I'll hold that thinking 'outside the square' is necessary, especially as you play against better opponents, and these plays should be considered on a case by case basis.
I'll hold that thinking 'outside the square' is necessary, especially as you play against better opponents, and these plays should be considered on a case by case basis.
Sure. If you argued for raising and capping a three-bet and then *showing down* the hand no matter what, winning a much bigger pot when you win and setting up plays in later hands because you showed this down I might agree with you.
The main problem I have with the play is the folding to a three-bet part.
i'm sure i'm late, but after skimming the responses, i was agreeing with smash; i think the OP played this hand perfectly.
i will call two cold with KQs (but not KQo), especially on the button with one limper behind the raiser (since the blinds are still to act and the pot will be anywhere between three-handed up to five-handed).
the flop raise is perfect, the UTG check-raise is interesting, a call is definitely order.
from then on, you check-call to showdown, it's only two big bets in a very large pot.
raising the turn is a bad idea because it's obvious UTG has shown a lot of strength with the check-three-bet, and you will likely get three-bet on the turn, which costs you two big bets.
considering the possible hands UTG could have (AA with ace of hearts, AQ with ace of hearts, a set of queens, fours or sevens), you are beating none of them on the turn, and considering any of these hands, UTG will not fold to a raise representing the flush. it's really throwing away money.
read that again, you definitely do NOT raise the turn since you have no fold equity and you are likely behind.
and yes, you definitely make a crying call on the river. you might be against a flush, but you also might have the best hand, and you never fold on the river even in seemingly hopeless situations when the pot is that big.
OP, you played it perfectly.
aseem
i will call two cold with KQs (but not KQo), especially on the button with one limper behind the raiser (since the blinds are still to act and the pot will be anywhere between three-handed up to five-handed).
the flop raise is perfect, the UTG check-raise is interesting, a call is definitely order.
from then on, you check-call to showdown, it's only two big bets in a very large pot.
raising the turn is a bad idea because it's obvious UTG has shown a lot of strength with the check-three-bet, and you will likely get three-bet on the turn, which costs you two big bets.
considering the possible hands UTG could have (AA with ace of hearts, AQ with ace of hearts, a set of queens, fours or sevens), you are beating none of them on the turn, and considering any of these hands, UTG will not fold to a raise representing the flush. it's really throwing away money.
read that again, you definitely do NOT raise the turn since you have no fold equity and you are likely behind.
and yes, you definitely make a crying call on the river. you might be against a flush, but you also might have the best hand, and you never fold on the river even in seemingly hopeless situations when the pot is that big.
OP, you played it perfectly.
aseem
OK, you're right, you get a crying call at worst from the opponent's range of hands and you can be outplayed by accident as I give random opponents too much credit or passivity. So a raise is chip spewing. I assumed that position in the hand made this different than the AJ hand WRTO posted earlier, but in fact it's the same it seems, pretty much.
However, here it's a pot 1/2 the size of that case, and your hand is (slightly) weaker; why not ditch the turn then? You're drawing slim vs. the range they've represented. I don't know if 5-1 you're laying by calling down is good enough. What's the break point for a pot big eough to absolutely defend your chances of winning? I thought it was higher than 9 BB's final for 2 to still invest.
However, here it's a pot 1/2 the size of that case, and your hand is (slightly) weaker; why not ditch the turn then? You're drawing slim vs. the range they've represented. I don't know if 5-1 you're laying by calling down is good enough. What's the break point for a pot big eough to absolutely defend your chances of winning? I thought it was higher than 9 BB's final for 2 to still invest.
However, here it's a pot 1/2 the size of that case, and your hand is (slightly) weaker; why not ditch the turn then?
You're getting ~4 to 1 to call it down. I think you're best (or improve to best) more often than that here.
my reasoning for calling down..is pot size and the fact that you just can't always be scared of the nuts or sets all the time. Remember this is micro limits and more often than not your opponent is a complete idiot.
I rarely lay down Top pair good kicker or a overpair for one more bet on the river in a decent size pot. Folding a winner is the biggest mistake anyone can make.
I rarely lay down Top pair good kicker or a overpair for one more bet on the river in a decent size pot. Folding a winner is the biggest mistake anyone can make.
Since he three bet the flop, I'd call it down with two pair. I really can't put him on a flush draw. Could have nailed a set, or have an A high flush on the turn, but it's worth it to see what he has.
Hero calls.
Final Pot: 11.25 BB
Results:
Hero has Qd Kd (two pair, kings and queens).
UTG has Jd Qs (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 11.25 BB.
Final Pot: 11.25 BB
Results:
Hero has Qd Kd (two pair, kings and queens).
UTG has Jd Qs (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 11.25 BB.
QUOTE (GT123)
Hero calls.
Final Pot: 11.25 BB
Results:
Hero has Qd Kd (two pair, kings and queens).
UTG has Jd Qs (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 11.25 BB.
Final Pot: 11.25 BB
Results:
Hero has Qd Kd (two pair, kings and queens).
UTG has Jd Qs (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 11.25 BB.
Just don't get in the habit of making these calls because of the results. Calling two cold with KQ isn't normally a good idea. His Flop threebet is very scary and honestly there is an argument to cap the flop. I still don't like your line on this hand considering the board. Don't let results start bad habits
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