PokerStars 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A.
UTG raises, MP calls, CO 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls, UTG caps, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) K, 2, K (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (9.75 BB) Q (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, CO raises, Hero calls, MP 3-bets, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (18.75 BB) 3 (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, CO calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 21.75 BB

MP is a relatively tight player who I've seen slowplay a couple of big hands.

The turn: The original plan involved me putting in a raise, but after a bet and a raise (and the subsequent 3bet), what am I beating? Between the two of them, I figure one has AK/KQ/QQ. Brilliant? Wasteful? You decide!

I think Hero's play on all streets is very debatable.

Elaborate.

Edit: It should be noted that aside from MP, this table is loose/retarded. Throwing away AK pf isn't an option.

hmmm

normally a flop call is fine since you're not going to chase a flush draw out on the flop

However, if a spade does hit the turn, you still have outs for a boat and for the backdoor nut flush.


So........

cap flop
bet turn - if raised, call down?

It's not a matter of chasing a flush draw out, it's a matter of getting them to pay you off when they are drawing.

I'd consider leading this flop, and hope CO raises, so I can 3-bet.

Also, cap the **** out of this preflop. And then lead flop.

math dork sklansky advises to call the flop and then proceed on turn

if someone can give a good explanation on doing which one please do so

I don't have too much problem with it the entire hand. debatable? Yes. But not nessecarily wrong. Some desicions could go differently depending on your read of the situation. But I think it was probably played pretty well. At least I probably would have played it very similarly (for whatever that is worth.... lol )


PRE-FLOP:If you're read is correct, then the 3-bet/cap doesn't really mean AA or KK. Any if they play that poorly and many go too far post flop (plus you have position over all the action), then with the implied odds I don't have any problem with the call. In a more typical/tougher game (or out of possition), I would be bit more hesitent.

FLOP: I don't have any problem with it. Not excited about the two spades, but don't have any problem calling and intending to raise on the turn. I think it is probably the better play in this pot even with two spades out there. Your play/decisions on the flop are dictated by the fushdraw (we will not give any unrealisitic credit to someone flopping a fullhouse in this evaluation)

Let's just assume that one of your opponents DOES have the flush draw. So, you know what his two cards are (sort of), Spades. You know what your two cards(with a spade), and you know the flop. So he's got (8/45)+(8/44)=36% chance of hitting the flush on the turn. However, if he hits on the turn you also have the nut-flush and fullhouse redraw on the river (13/44=29.5%). With a total odds of that scenario being 5.25%. Will subtract that scenario from the possibility of him hitting the flush, making us a 2.25:1 favorite against the flush draw. Regardless of weither we raise or call the flop, he is getting the correct odds to continue. The only thing that changes how positive is EV is. Raising does lower is EV, but I don't really care about lowing his EV if I can't make it negative, I only care about increasing mine. I want to try to get as much money in the pot as possible. So, if I feel that I can get more money in the pot by raising the turn instead of the flop, that is the right move (and in this situation, I would say that is a safe assumption). So, I have no problem allowing the flush draw to see the turn for one bet instead of two if I think it will result in more money in the pot at the showdown. And if this is your feeling, this play is cemented by the fact that you can optimize your EV based on what the turn brings (raise a brick, call a very scary card... Q ,J ).

Turn: Again, not too much of a problem. I would have every intention of raising the turn as you said. However, with the raise, I would be a little worried about the CO possibility of hitting a fullhouse (but probably just slow playing a weaker set of Kings). However, with the bet, and raise, a re-raise, I would be a little worried about MP folding if I 3.bet. I don't want to drive him out when he'll call the raise, but maybe not the re-raise, and I could possibily get another bet out of him on the river (plus, I would rather keep him in the hand instead of committing 3-bets and driving him out when there is a possibility I could be behind CO. It will help my EV). You are probably a head the majority of the time, so raising is not bad either, but in raise you will loose more when you are behind than you will gain when you are ahead because the CO will often CAP when ahead but not very often when behind (and play similarly on the river). Still, I would probably 3-bet because I would think we are ahead more than 66% of the time.

I have more of a problem not capping after MP 3-bet, than I do the play after CO raised. Even if assume we may not even be ahead 66% of the time now, we still have a 20% chance to hit a better fullhouse on the river. And you know everyone is showing down now, so there is no fear of driving anyone out.

River I don't have too much of a problem with it. It now seems like MP may have had a weaker set of Kings (at best) all along (or was he betting KQ ll along and sucked out full house on the turn, a slim possibility)and CO had a the flush draw (or picked up a straight draw) and tried to make a move on the turn and missed the river. So, I think the river should probably be raised (especially when you consider MP coldcalled preflop... coldcall with QQ, AK, KQ? fairly passive prefop play from who you say is solid player). But with a fullhouse scare and all the action on the turn, don't have much of a problem only calling.




mikesong,

when I flop trips against aggressive players, I love to lead out from OOP hoping they raise and I can pull a little stop-and-go (occationally go for a check raise on the flop against good/observant players, just to switch it up and try to slow down their future flop-steal attempts... but only occuationally ~20%). And with position against aggressive players, I often call the flop, and raise the turn.

Otherwise, I typically let the texture of the flop and number of players in the hand dictate my play. Few players and an un-intimidating flop, I'll usually move on the turn for double the bet. Lots of players or an intimidating flop, I'll usually bet/raise the flop.

Don't know if it's right, but that is what I usaully do.




-- Also would love a detailed criteque to see how stupid I am. Thanks, all!

I don't mind a preflop cap, but I usually just call to see if the initial raiser caps or not. Thoughts on that?

I would agree with that.

I actually prefer a call to cap. Because I would figure I have to hit to win. If you are lucky enough to get away with only one bet on the flop and turn, capping has a little more EV than calling (and that is not thinking about if you and the opponent hit, but your pair is second best, which will cost a lot more than if you miss) But facing a 3-bet, I highly doubt you are going to get way with one only one bet on both streets.

But getting to see the orgininal raisers reaction is a nice bonus since you are OOP against all the aggression. If you cap, you are first to act from the BB. If you only call, at least you get one more piece of info from the orginial raise (may not tell you much, but it is not my primarly reason for calling instead of capping, just a nice bonus)

Cap pre-flop,
call on the flop is fine IF you raise the turn, but you didn't
Tons of value on the river since MP limp called, raise/call

It was my intention to raise the turn when I called the flop, but the action on the turn made me think otherwise and realize that there's very little I'm beating. Same reason for calling the river, though you're right, that would've been a good spot to drop in a raise.


Also, as for the flush draw, I was less concerned thatn I'd usually be, since I held A . These people are loose, but I have difficulty believing they'd be putting in big preflop raises with suited spades without holding the ace or the king.


Anyway, CO showed AQ and MP surprised me with KJ.

that was pokerstars 10/20?! damn...

someone stake me

Honestly, as ridiuclous as this sounds, I think the play in 10/20 is consistently far, far worse than 5/10 or 3/6.

I won't disagree. I was just trying to illustrate, IMO, that at wost, we are ahead but may be up against a flush draw. That is the only real hand I am worried about taking the lead on future streets (far more concerned about someone's ability to hit 9outs with two cards to come than a two outer, or being up against KQ and hitting his queen). So, if we are ok with only calling the flop to make a move on the turn against the flush draw, then we should be even less concerned about more realistic weaker draws. That's all.

Good hand, solidly played!

I like the preflop call. I think capping should only be considered under 1 of 2 conditions:

1) The 3-bettor will 3-bet fairly light (say, with AJo), AND there is a good chance that the original raiser will fold to a cap.

OR

2) You think your opponents are observant, and so far they have seen you just call with AK and medium-high pairs in similar situations from the blinds.

I think (2) is self-explanatory - you cap in order to gain fold equity against medium pairs when you miss the flop. But, particularly in an online game, I think it's rare that you would have played enough hands for your opponents to have such a comfortable read on you.

I like capping in the case of (1) because there is a signicant chance that you can put dead money in the pot and get in a situation where you are likely to have your opponents dominated, and are fairly unlikely to be dominated yourself.

But otherwise, I like just calling (or folding, if either opponent is so tight-passive that you're almost certain you're up against AA or KK). What does capping accomplish? You're in a situation where you probably have to improve to win, and your cap may scare off one or more opponents after the flop if they have an UI mid-high PP and an A or a K flops. Also, if you have the best hand at present, then both opponents probably have a worse A or K, and they are more likely to fold overcards on the flop if you cap preflop (and I don't think you should mind if they call with 3-outers).

Also, as someone else mentioned, by just calling, you get to see whether the original raiser caps.

Good post.

I'm down with calling preflop now guys.

I'm a result whore, what did they show? =)