Party $10 sng

4 handed

CO (1100)
Button (4,400)
Hero (3,500)
BB (11,000)

Blinds 200/400

Hero dealt QcQs in SB

CO folds, Button folds, Hero pushes

Common bubble scenario. If I just wait I can probably sneak into 3rd. But I think my hand is too strong to not put my chips in in this spot. If I want to make the money and feel good about myself I probably raise this and fold to an all in. But if I'm playing to make the most money in the long term its worth the push, right?

edit, push or r 1200 and push ANY flop

hard for me not to have poster-lost bias here..but I will say from experience...

Read on BB ?

I'm having trouble with the 600 really mattering to us.
With CO at 1100 and in the blinds next.

I could limp or min raise this, and play a flop.
I want value for my risk..not just 600.
I could easily fold to a substantial BB re-raise preflop. (unless he is lagging up)

lol tough to post without making it seem that way....

i don't ever have any reads, maybe its my weakness.

i play 8 at a time now....i find that getting so many more in is more profitable than having a read which that might be helpful once or twice.

sng play seems so mechanical and such a preflop game that i feel like i can get away with playing that many without losing too much because once the blinds are up i can evaluate the situation, either fold or put all my chips in, click to another table, rinse, repeat

How exactly are you making money by raising then folding on an all in? You're never going to get out of the bottom unless you're willing to lose your chips. If pocket queens dont make you feel good about going all in, what the hell will? You'll be waiting forever for pocket K's or A's. That's what the big stacks are going to do is just keeping putting you all in.

if i want to be more certain to cash i coudl fold to the all in raise. if i wanna make more money in the long run maybe a push is best.

this situation is a little different than just saying "Holy ****ing ****!!! I have QQ!! All in! All in!

Man, a $10 sit and go. What do you get $20 for third place. Are you really worried about $10?? Its not like you're about get lose making the money and it will cost you hundreds of dollars. No one said to freak out that you have QQ. But you're questioning and all in move when there only 2 hands that beat you 4 handed!! You'll never make any real money waiting for pocket K's or A's.. lol Let us know how you make out?! lol

I don't know how you could fold this to an all-in.

ur a ****ing idiot

its not about $10...just like you said it doesn't really matter

its about making plays that have the most expectation over the long run whether you are playing for a few dollars or thousands of dollars.

because the Bubbles are significant in SnG's.

I could fold, depending on BB

well BB is a donkey....didn't know that until after he made the call tho

he had 44.

well, if you know he's that bad, then yep..push.
But, I fail to se where the risk to get 600 is worth it.
Since BB's range to call would be pretty tight, normally.
Unless you have pushed a bit already and can mask the hand that way..then..pushing is good, too.

I may be too passive when it's near bubble and i'm a middle stack

Edit: I don't think i'm making much sense..maybe in morning it will

youre the one considering folding QQ in the SB 4 handed with an M or less than 6 just so you can win $9

Youre the people I laugh at when I have huge chip leads on the bubble

Preflop you CANNOT fold. It just isn't the right play. Ever.

Now I agree with actuary that a min-raise or just a call might be a good move here, just to try and extract more money. This is image dependant though. If you've been pushing a lot (which I doubt based on your thoughts) I think a push could be correct. I would probably even slow play post flop with all unders.

when I compare this to a post Smash had wher the big stack was SB and we were 2nd stack in BB... with QQ...I argued to call the push. Our lead over the other 2 was not enough to pass up the edge.

Here, CO is about to be in BB with just 1100.
It would suck to miss the money.

I'm sure I don't fold in real life.
Poster bias, meh.

i play incredibly aggressively on the bubble because everyone has a fear of busting in fourth. If I don't have that fear its a great opportunity to accumulate chips. There is usually 600-900 in the pot preflop that nobody wants to fight for.

I pushed, so don't laugh at me. I'm just never satisfied with my play to I try to learn more. So I post this hand to see if folding would ever be a consideration.

I think I push as well. But its because I dont play with an SNG strat, more of a "poker" strat.

do you see why you could consider not open pushing here though?

Well, if you're the aggressive type on the bubble, I think the correct option is to make the same sized raise you would on any of your open-raises. Given your M, that's probably a push at this stage.

Plus a push negates your positional disadvantage here.

i think once the blinds are 200/400 i rarely make a "standard raise"

pushing all in seems to be the best way to go because effective Ms are usually in the 2-6 range since its a short handed table.

Its about making plays!? You're clearly at risk of being the bubble cause of lousy plays like this! I never said go all in as soon as you're able to. You stated you'd fold QQ if someone put you all in pre flop. Clearly showing the FISH you truly are if you even consider not calling. If its not about the money, then why do you even care whether or not you get past the bubble? Clearly you want to maximize your gain and it seems you can't get any better then doubling up which is what pocket QQ would clearly allow you to do! UNBELIEVABLE!

Don't hit the glass!!

hi, I'm the dumby who could fold to a push preflop.
Or at least, last night I posted as such.

I'm all about cashing and then worrying about 1st.

I'm a bit on fence here.
I'd probably min raise and push a non A/K flop
If pushed preflop I could fold.....ahhh not sure..nah..I'd call..boy that woudl suck to get 4th here

I see this all the time in 30+3 SnGs. And when I do, I just sit there and press the 'win' (raise) button.

Personally, I play to gets heads-up and consider 3rd a consolation prize.

-M

I agree. I often attack weak tight players on the bubble and win pot after pot without contest. Sometimes I have a disappointing bubble finish, so be it. In the past two weeks I have....

1st- 15
2nd- 14
3rd- 11

I find that pushing harder on the bubble has made me cash fewer times but I think my overall expectation is higher because I get 1st and 2nd more often.

I push...You play to win the tournament you don't play to make the money. It will cost you in the long run if you are concerned with limping into the money.

A push here is narrowly +EV (about 1.1% of the prize pool) vs folding. Since its so close I would think an alternate line is better.

I like a call here. Limp, get it all in preflop if reraised, and push if there is no A or K on the flop, fold to aggression if there is.

Youve minimized your losses if you were destined to get outdrawn...you havent materially hurt your second place chances in particular. You have a better chance of picking up more than the blinds if hes got garbage but flops an underpair, and youre still a 4:1 favorite.

The line only costs you dearly is when he has an A or K, would have folded, and then hits it on the flop...but thats so rare...5% of the time maybe?....that I cant see it having much EV impact.

I dont like raising. Youve invested a lot of chips, and while not totally pot comitted, youve put yourself in a position of playing for 3rd more than 2d.

would u mind telling me how you came up with that number?

sit-n-go power tools

That's an excellent idea. I'm going to have to think about it. What about JJ and KK?

The push vs fold difference is pretty small. With JJ its .8% of the prize pool, with AA its 2.2% of the prize pool. Thus I would still have to conclude that there are better lines for all of them.

The biggest difference of course is with AA, since theres so few flops you could consider folding to. Here I would probably check/call the flop, lead out on the turn if he checked the flop, or check/push the turn if bet something small on the flop.

The others Id play the same way as QQ

no way you fold preflop?

Suppose the stacks look like this

CO (3000)
Button (4,500)
Hero (3,500)
BB (9,000)

how does this affect the situation?

then I'm not even considering the remote possiblty of folding preflop.
I would min raise here to get a few more chips before I push a non A/K flop

i don't use power tools

I agree on the minraise with the revised stacks.

On the former stacks, no I dont think I would fold preflop (unless I knew the small stack was so bad he wouldnt play a hand till his stack was smaller than the big blind).

Waiting for the small stack to blind out or plays and busts or doubles up isnt worth it, when getting all in vs the big stack with QQ is +EV, even though not by much.

I think the two choices are:
1) All-in pf, or
2) Call, and push any flop without an A or K.

The decsion comes down to how to get the BB to commit the most chips. If he thinks a push is a steal and will call, then push. If not, then take option 2.

if i'm not going to raise all in pf but wait for the flop to push all in on a non A/K board then i would prefer min raising to limping to get few more chips out of it.

if I can step on Copernicus's ground, I think that risks being too low if you have to fold the flop.
with that super low stack in there, you can afford to not accumulate here.

but Copernicus uses math, so be aware.

I dont like the minraise because you may chase him out, and your biggest equity gain on this hand is when he hits a piece of the flop with no A or K on the board. Thats about 20% of the time, and you are 80% to win win that happens. So 16% of the time you have a chance to nearly double your equity, which is about 25% of the prize pool currently. So youre gaining about 4% of the prize pool in equity..almost 4x the value of pushing, just from that 20% scenario. Then there are the times when he catches a small piece of the flop and an A or K fall, he shows weakness on the flop and you might pick up something on the turn and river.

That has a lot more value than picking up 400 chips the 70% of the time you push him out on the flop, even assuming he calls the minraise 100% of the time.

Sit-n-gos are all about math ... the trick is to do it right...did I????