http://www.tmz.com/2006/07/28/gibsons-anti...leged-cover-up/

What an idiot.

As an aside, I thought christians were all about slurirng jews.

well yeah but driving drunk was going too far

meh . . . christians are not perfect . . . just forgiven . . .

too far for what? explain what Gibson's DUI does to your overall view of God/christians? hard to judge the whole by the acts of one...unless of course you are ignorant.

. . . never heard Christians were "all about slurring jews". I'm a Christian . . . never personally slurred a jew.




That happens a lot here . . .

I'm not judging all christians
I just wish more vocal - and wow he sure is vocal - christians would be more christlike

he can drink all he wants but getting behind the wheel of a car where he can kill someone and then blaming it on the Jews - If I were Jesus I'd ask that my name be taken off that movie

and yes i understand a flawed man can make a great religious movie

guess the notions of whether or not he agrees with his dad has been spelled out though

Additionally, Christian leaders sure like to judge people, and wow they sure do wind up in the headlines themselves a lot

Dude, look at the source.

was this serious or a joke?

Huh. Mel Gibson ... is not Christ. ... Who would've thunk?

Bad sarcasm and a little toungue in cheek actually.

Mel Gibson claims to be a christian and makes one of the most powerful movies of all time IMO. But yet he has his own demons and low and behold he gets drunk, drives and slurs some jews. WOW.

So in one sense I was serious . . . if he really is a christian at heart (I believe he probably is) . . . then my statement is serious. On the other hand you will have others that will use this as a chance to bash all Christians because of Mel Gibson's serious lack of judgement. So in that instance it's kind of sarcastic, tongue in cheek(ish).

So, I guess I should have clarified from the start. I think Mel Gibson has done great, great things for Christians worldwide with his movie. However . . . I think he did just as much harm for the same with his actions and comments which to me are inexcusable on a personal level.

So again . . . christians aren't perfect . . . just forgiven.



I actually couldn't agree with you more (as a Christian myself).

so if you are not vocal you dont have to be as Christlike but are given a license to judge those 'vocal' christians when they make mistakes. Last I heard he apologized.

well of course he apologized - people say what they really think when they are drunk and then when they sober up - their people tell them to apologize

foose i think we agree

I think there are a lot of wonderful religious people of all faiths but there are also a large vocal group that judges others who don't agree with them - mel is one of them and - well (i suppose i'm not proud of it) since i have a problem with their judgementality (is that a word) i'm more than a little overjoyed when they fall short of what they preach

Mel Gibson is a jerk, a complete kneebiter.

So this is less about your disappointment in someone not 'practicing what they preach' but more a celebration of their failure? Doesnt that seem just a little hypocritical?

no its more of a celebration of the revealing of their true self

had it been a guy i respected - i'd be crushed

like this guy i dig

http://www.kevincmurphy.com/west.html

but then again he's not really out sending people to hell in broadstrokes

1,000 Dutch points to whoever picks up on this reference....

Key to truly understanding Christianity is understanding that it's fundamental tenet is that all men are sinners. Everyone sins. Sin is not an indicator of failure of the Christian. You're clinging to the "Church Lady" view of Christianity, which, while tragically hip, is also totally flawed. I'm sorry Mel Gibson did this. I'm also sorry that his apologies seem insincere to you. But, frankly, I have no way of judging the sincerity of his apology, other than taking it at face value. I also have no reason to believe that a sincere apology versus an insincere one has any concrete impact in our world, at this point in time. But in the eyes of God, even Mel Gibson is just another man, exactly like you and me. His sins are between him and his God. His DUI is no worse or better than yours or mine would be if the circumstances were the same, and indicates nothing of the state of religion, other than it is populated and practiced by human beings. What I'm troubled by is the outburst of anti-Semitism, which indicates deeper troubles. It was my impression that Mel Gibson had handled this part of his past, and had gotten beyond it. Character is sometimes revealed by the way we handle success, but it's more often revealed by the way we handle trouble. Mel Gibson did not handle this trouble very well. He has work to do in his heart, I think.

Well said on all points. The only thing Id have to say to OP and to everyone on this board is that this is the problem with putting people on pedestals. Everyone IS flawed and that is why God should be the standard, not man. Mel Gibson has done a lot for christians with The Passion of the Christ and it has even brought some people to God who were otherwise without Him. That is an accomplishment but nothing that should be glorified to man but to God only. Mel has proven it. Man will do great and wonderful things and then turn around and do horrible dispicable things. We all do it. we show up to church on sunday and praise God then turn around and spit in the face of that same God by taking his name in vain or any number of sins that displease him. God should always be the standard and anyone who is surprised that any man fails to represent God completely and wholly all the time is naive and ignorant.


More proof of contrition on Mel's part. I cant fault a man for admitting when he is wrong and doing something about it.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Movies/07/....dui/index.html

anyone that thinks that apology is sincere is crazy - he got caught showing his true self and he's doing his best to save his image -

it seems odd to me that - these people who lambast drug users and homosexuals and anyone else who live their lives the way mel and others don't want them to

when they do something 100 x worse - and drunk driving is - he was driving twice the speed limit - hammered out of his mind - he might as well have been shooting a gun off into a crowd

people are quick to say that we all sin and they should be forgiven

i'm not trying to be vicious but that's the way it has always appeared to me and it drives me nuts to see it

either way i wish no harm to mel and his people - but that's clearly not what he thinks about mine

when the passion came out he claimed that despite the fact that passion plays had been used in the past to amp up anti-semitism - and despite the fact that his father is a rabid anti semite - I gave him the benefit of the doubt and thought him courageous to put his career on the line for that movie - but now i'm extremely sure that i know the truth

I dont remember seeing anyone lambasting any drug users or homosexuals. Anyone who sins and is truly contrite I say forgiveness is the only way to keep from going completely insane. I mean otherwise the world would be full of people like yourself just full of pent up anger looking for someone to slip up and pounce on their ideologies.

nah not at all live however you want - just don't judge me unless i do something that can harm something else

which mel definitely did

he also has a history of slurs against homosexuals - whose behavior - under no scenario that i can figure out can be seen as withing a million miles of as obviously wrong as driving twice the speed limit drunk and then lurching out at the arresting police officers with anti-semitic rants and threats for doing their job

Thats pretty subjective dont you think? I mean what hurts one person may not hurt another. Are we limiting it to physical harm? If a little girl gets hit and is killed by a drunk driver is it worse than a drunk driver hitting a beefed up man who is merely severely injured? do you see the lack of logic used in your whole judge the judgers hypocrisy?

the truth is none of us is perfect and none of us has the right to judge one another. God is ultimately responsible for that. We just do our best to represent him in all we do. Even if it means we will fail in the process.

Again, Christian belief says all sin is the same ... sin is sin in the eyes of God. However, I happen to agree that what MG did is horrible. I have 4 kids and it seems like I am CONSTANTLY pulling them away from roadways where cars seem to be careening out of control and protecting them from the random carelessness of other people (although I think that the MG occurred at 3 am). However ... I am likewise of the opinion that the endless array of "personal lifestyle" choices (of which you provided a short catalog) impact us all as a society as well. Some of these behaviors shift tremendous costs to the rest of us.

About the sincerity of Mel's apology; like I said earlier ... no one can know.

no offense and these people may not represent you but jerry falwell, pat robertson and other vocally religious are extremely judgemental

and drunk driving its just not defensible under any circumstances

mel has traditionally been very opinionated about how people should live and worship and he has proven himself not just to be flawed like we all are but a hypocrite

i feel that true christians should be vocal about those that are vocally judgemental yet fail to live up to anything close to a good effort at a good life

drunk driving is very wrong whether you take out a dozen schoolkids or make it home safely - and a guy like gibson who is vocal about for instance accepting vatican 2 - started his own sect etc - slurs his so called faith with his behavior and anti-semetic views and should be held accountable for his real views and actions

there are some things that you can apologize for - but being exposed as a viral anti-semite and blaming it on a few drinks is not at all credible

we all know that alcohol - is a little like truth serum - it blocks the inner censor that says i shouldn't say this becuase it will make me look bad - and opens the world up to your true views

i applaud christians who try to live good lives and try to help others

i virilently despise those who hold themselves up as superior for their faith yet call out for people to live a life they in no way live themselves

Mel Gibson has always been out on the edge in terms of Christianity. His father was his teacher and well we have heard some crazy things from him.

Lets just get it out there... He messed up. We all give in to temptations and well somethings we do are just stupid

On an aside, his blood alcohol level was only like .12...thats like 8 beers for him. I cant think he was that drunk with a level like that. Especially for somebody who battles alcohol addiction that seems very low.

WHo knows what the real truth is

+1 Douglas Adams

It's Mel Gibson. Anybody who actually gets behind him as a representative for christianity is as crazy as he is.

BTW, there is no excuse for drinking and driving. What, he couldn't get a ride? Must be tough hailing a cab/limo/helicopter/leerjet when you literally **** money.

This is all a bunch of crap. Keith, are you converting tomorrow if Christians in the US denounce every one of their leaders who has ever sinned publicly? I think not.

Wishing Christians were A. Perfect and B. had a philosophy that an athiest could "deal" with isn't realistic or fair, really. It seems very odd to me that athiests or non-christians want to talk about what's wrong with Christianity. Not like we're flying planes into buildings or sending out suicide bombers.


DISCLAIMER: I am in no way endorsing the behavior of Mel Gibson during his DUI incident. Offer not valid in Alaska and Hawaii.

I have not condoned drunk driving at any point during this conversation. I personally do not drink because I have seen what alcohol has done to members of my family and think it can really destroy someones life. So I hope I havent come across as condoning alcoholism or drunk driving. My point is that this thread came off as a blast at someone because of their celebrity and how it lines up with their religious beliefs. My point has been that if Mel wasnt famous would you blast someone who is apologetic for driving drunk? Your point seems to be that even someone who is apologetic (sincere or not) should be judged by you because of his celebrity. My point is that if someone is apologetic we are to forgive and let God deal with that person. It is not our place to judge the contrition of the heart. If he isnt truly contrite then God will deal with him, if he is, and you are writing him off what does that say about you?

I am not some huge Mel Gibson fan just trying to defend him, its the reasons for your anger that bother me. Anti-semitism or any discrimination for that matter, is abhorred by God, but so is all sin. That is my point. The only thing that makes Mel Gibson's drunk driving worse than any other sin in the eyes of God is the impact it has on others. Sin is sin.

As for your reference to the aforementioned Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, well you are picking two of the most idiotic examples of christian representation. These guys CONTINUOUSLY make fools of themselves and have proven time and time again there lack of true christian representation. Id much rather you use the example of a christian who has maybe made a mistake and needed to publicly apologize because of their celebrity.

what are you looking at, sugar tits?

Pretty much everything you say is hilarious while imagining Pacino screaming the words.

A drunk man's words are a sober man's thoughts.

As an apatheist, I do not forgive Mel Gibson for his sins. I think he's a fucking idiot on many levels that deserves all the negative attention he gets. This amused me mostly becuase it made me think of a few Christians I know that adamantly refused to believe that Gibson is anti-semetic...

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FWIW:

From Drudge.

MEL SAYS SORRY TO THE JEWS
Tue Aug 01 2006 11:10:45 ET

August 2, 2006 -- There is no excuse, nor should there be any tolerance, for anyone who thinks or expresses any kind of Anti-Semitic remark. I want to apologize specifically to everyone in the Jewish community for the vitriolic and harmful words that I said to a law enforcement officer the night I was arrested on a DUI charge.

I am a public person, and when I say something, either articulated and thought out, or blurted out in a moment of insanity, my words carry weight in the public arena. As a result, I must assume personal responsibility for my words and apologize directly to those who have been hurt and offended by those words.

The tenets of what I profess to believe necessitate that I exercise charity and tolerance as a way of life. Every human being is God’s child, and if I wish to honor my God I have to honor his children. But please know from my heart that I am not an anti-Semite. I am not a bigot. Hatred of any kind goes against my faith.

I’m not just asking for forgiveness. I would like to take it one step further, and meet with leaders in the Jewish community, with whom I can have a one on one discussion to discern the appropriate path for healing.

I have begun an ongoing program of recovery and what I am now realizing is that I cannot do it alone. I am in the process of understanding where those vicious words came from during that drunken display, and I am asking the Jewish community, whom I have personally offended, to help me on my journey through recovery. Again, I am reaching out to the Jewish community for its help. I know there will be many in that community who will want nothing to do with me, and that would be understandable. But I pray that that door is not forever closed.

This is not about a film. Nor is it about artistic license. This is about real life and recognizing the consequences hurtful words can have. It’s about existing in harmony in a world that seems to have gone mad.

I'd almost respect him more if he said - my dad hated jews, i've met a lot of jews - i can't stand them

at least then it would be the truth

going to rehab has been the traditional method of reputation repair for a celebrity - it's almost a cliche

if mel is really so sorry - lets see him drop a mil or so to the anti defimation league

LOL oh so going to rehab is cliche an unacceptable form of contrition but throwing money at a problem is? Seems it is much easier for someone to write a check than it would be to be admitted to a rehab program. your enigmatic logic is never ending.

well he's clearly not sorry a mil is a mil

this guy was riding on top as a paragon of christian excellence a few years ago

well he's been revealed as serial drunk driver who tries to use his influence to get away with it and a rabid anti-semite - if i was a serious christian i'd be upset = he's made your faith and all the people who lauded him look silly

he's every bit the embarrassment that jerry falwell and pat robertson are

First of all I dont remember either of those showing any sign of humility at all, so to clump in with them is unfair. Secondly do not try and assess, through a forum, if I am a serious Christian or not. You dont know me. Thirdly, Mel Gibson is not a 'paragon of christian excellence'. Anyone, christian or otherwise, who views him that way is just ignorant. Do you even know what paragon means? At no point has Gibson ever claimed perfection. Be careful with hyperbole. The guy stepped out and made a very controversial movie based on the elements of his Faith. The fact that a Hollywood A list star would step out and do that is what thrust his film in the lime light. It has nothing to do with his claim to be of 'christian perfection' (an oxymoron in and of itself). You dont understand the true Christian perspective if you think the likes of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson define our Faith. There will always be bad-seeds. I have a few friends who are muslims and find it detestable that muslims would crash two airplanes into the Twin Towers in the name of Allah. The mistakes of a few do not define the point of view of the whole.

Mel has made mistakes and is, for all we know, contrite. Does it make what he did right? No. That is why he is getting help. That is why he is trying to make amends. If you think its to protect his celebrity thats your perrogative but dont use the mistakes of one professed Christian to blanket the faith as judgemental and elitist.

I never called out christians in general
But Christians should call these guys who claim to be devout christians out when it is shown that they are full of it - as mel clearly is

The fact that you are apologizing for him and not deeply embarrassed by his conduct is disturbing if you indeed are a member of his religion - he has been tremendously vocal and tremendously lauded for his faith

a celebrity mea culpa the next day is a farce

If Dustin Hoffman got drunk and called the pope names people would be a 100 times more upset

In fact people are still angry at Sinead O'Connor who is in fact still a christian - she was booed off the stage the following week at a bob dylan concert

yet i'm supposed to be impressed that Mel issued a press statement saying he was sorry? he's damn lucky he didn't kill someone - and he's clearly a bigot

If you have christian heroes - laud them to the high heavans even if its your mother but when these tremendously vocal christians show themselves to be hypocrites and charletans as mel has - have the guts to hold him accountable - without the well we all sin excuse

that by the way is the exact same excuse that was given for keeping pedophile priests around to repeat their offenses which they did over and over again

i'm not blanket criticizing all christians - but if I label myself something and someone who also labels themselves that shows themselves to be unworthy of my cause I'll call them out on it - in fact i hope i'll be the first

i'm not disillusioned with Mel gibson - i always had my doubts - if I were a christian who had looked up to him I'd be enraged to find out the truth

See you arent listening. You are making assumption about that are unjustified. My whole point is that MAN is flawed and should not be worshipped or lifted up because of that fact. God is the only one to be worshipped and any christian or non christian who takes a man like Gibson or anyone else for that matter as a 'paragon' is just an idiot. My point is that Gibson is a man and is flawed and if showing contrition wishes to be forgiven, I will not disallow him that. That doesnt make me a Jew hater or make what he did any less upsetting. It just means I forgive him. If it is a repeated pattern and he continues to do it over and over again, his apologies will be less and less meaningful and I will of course reevaluate my prompt forgiveness. Exercising forgiveness proves I dont condone his actions but appreciate his contrition. Those are two seperate things and you are lumping them together. I find it hard to call someone a charlatan based on one incident that he has vocally apologized for. Generally charlatans are characterized by a pattern of lies or misrepresentation. Otherwise anyone who has every said something they didnt mean is a charlatan. I doubt you would hold the pretense that anyone is that above reproach.

As far as continuing this Id love to go back and forth all day but I see its not really getting anywhere so Im done. GL to you in all future ventures. Maybe Ill see you around the forums on a less intense post.

fair enough and i'm really not trying to be this antagonistic

i think there are many fine christians in this world

my issue is that there are a lot who try to tell people how to live and try to enact legislation to these ends

a lot of times they in turn are revealed to not practice what they preach and i wish people would speak out against these people

christians say forgive - but only if you accept their religion - they are fine about judging others that don't share their views and choose to live lives that they don't agree with

live your life your way let me live mine and we'll all live in peace

Honestly ... it would be nothing to him. Ten mil would be nothing. In fact, I won't be surprised to see him do exactly that.

Also, like I said in the first post, I can't know if he's sincere or not. But I look at the characters he portrays, and they're intense. Intense, man. I think that he's not doing much acting in these roles, it's his personality. And that personality type does these things without thinking. I don't happen to like that personality type, personally, and I think the things they do are tremendously destructive. Which is why we are having this discussion.

However, that being said, I also think they (this personality type) sincerely regret things like this in the light of day and wish they weren't that way.

Just my take.





I don't think I accept this. Christ is at the head of the church. People are the body of the church. Your structural misunderstandings of what Christianity is are clouding your judgment of the institution.

What a minute....how many sides has a paragon?

azzshole doesnt even deserve punctuation

Apparently, one it it's a good paragon, two if it's a bad paragon.

This is simply stupid... no reply necessary.


QFT... see above post.


QFT... me too.


What makes you think that? Have you ever seen an interview with him? Nothing about how he lives or behaves has ever indicated fruit to me. I would be very interested in hearing any good reasoning as to why you believe this.

Are you really that incapable of recognizing sarcasm?

Oh, and what is this "slurring" nonsense? Is that really the correct word for this situation?

Religion and Faith are two different things in my eyes. Most are undiscernable superficially. Gibson may be very religious but lacks true relationship with Christ that effects his lifestyle and general point of view. But then again he may be a tormented believer who struggles like we all do with our own demons. Hard to say. I dont want to be the one making the judgement call.

First of all . . . I want to reiterate that I do not condone his actions. Earlier in this thread I stated such. I think a Christian, especially a public figure like Mel, should have used better common sense. BUT . . . just like every other Christian on here has said, nobody is perfect. He definately has some deep rooted personal demons that he needs to deal with. That still does not mean that he does not have the heart of a Christian. Sin does not take away that . . . if it did nobody could call themself a Christian. Yes I agree that his actions do not demonstrate the Christian lifestyle AT ALL. But from a Christian perspective the man put his character and career on the line to make a movie about Jesus Christ. This was not a fluff Hollywood movie. This was a hard core in your face movie about Jesus Christs death. To me, he would have only taken that risk if he was, at heart, a Christian.