I'm basically lost in respect to the current wildcard picture. We have several teams at 8-7.

Crunch Bunch
Bayside
The Czar's
Team Arenas

Also, The Degenerates are 7-7. If they win, The Czar's and Degenerates would have a Head to Head for the division. If they lose, The Czar's win the division. Assuming they win, who goes in as the wild card?

5150s are the 1 seed

you're welcome

I'll take a guess

1. 5150s (only thing for sure)
2. HC Dukes
3. Cheap Thieves


HC Dukes and Cheap Thieves are ahead of the other 8-7 teams due to 8-4 conference records. I think Darrell will also use division record, which puts Dukes ahead of Cheap Thieves.

now if Degenerates lose the remaining seeds will be

4. Czars
5. Bayside
6. Team Arenas

Czars beat Arenas in division race with better divison record, same reason Bayside is seeded ahead of Arenas

if Degenerates win

4. Czars/Degenerates

i think will need to play a heads up as they would be tied in headsup, division, and conference

5. Bayside
6. Czars/Degenerates

whoever loses the headsup match.

Arenas is eliminated here because of division record



Crunch Bunch is eliminated in all scenarios due to 6-6 conference record



just one mans guess

Team Arenas is 1-0 vs Bayside so we are currently ahead of them as HU is the first tiebreaker. If Degenerates lose tomorrow I think Arenas gets 5th seed and Bayside 6th. If they Degens win, then it gets complicated since Degenerates and Czars will play a 1 game playoff to decide the Bobby Baldwin division. The loser will then be in a tiebreaker with Arenas, Bayside, and Crunch Bunch for the two playoff spots.

This seems pretty accurate to me, if Degenerates lose and it comes down to us (Bayside), Arenas, and Crunch Bunch for the 2 wildcard spots, we are 2-0 against Crunch Bunch but 0-1 against Arenas, which I think makes Arenas the 5th seed and us the 6th seed.

If the Degenerates win, things get pretty complicated, and I think it'll come down to play-offs.

its not a two team tie though. it would be three with Arenas, Bayside and crunch bunch. Since you didn't play Crunch Bunch i think it bypasses headsup and goes to conference, which you and Bayside are tied, then divison where Bayside has the edge. Giving Bayside the 5 seed.

Then you have conference record over Crunch Bunch for the 6 seed.

the divison record tiebreaker is why i give Czars/ Degenerates and Bayside the edge over Arenas should Degenerates win.


again, just an educated guess.

EDIT: Whatever this comes out to be, it will be interesting.

Right now, there are 3 scenarios that could happen: Degenerates win in week 15 and win the playoff for the division with the Czars, win in week 15 and lose the playoff, and lose in week 15. Here's how I have the 3 scenarios playing out...

1. Degenerates win both

Degenerates get the division, there are 4 teams left at 8-7 for the last 2 wildcard spots: Bayside, Arenas, Czars, and Crunch Bunch. Assuming it isn't cumulative head to head (i.e. add up the records against each other for each team), H2H doesn't seem to work because not all people have played each other and no team has a definitive win at this point.

Then it goes to conference record. Bayside, Arenas, and Czars are all 7-5 but Crunch Bunch is 6-6, so Crunch Bunch is eliminated at this point.

Then it goes to record vs. common teams. The only teams in common are the CC Riders, Cheap Thieves, Lost Leader, and Ramrod. Arenas is 3-0 against those teams, Bayside is 2-1, and the Czars are 2-1, so Arenas gets the 5th seed and the 6th seed is between Bayside and the Czars. Because Bayside has the H2H tiebreaker between them and the Czars, Bayside becomes the 6th seed.

2. Degenerates win regular season game but lose playoff

This would leave Bayside, Arenas, Degenerates, and Crunch Bunch tied at 8-7. Once again different teams have different tiebreakers in H2H, so then it goes to conference record and Crunch Bunch is again eliminated. Then it goes to common opponents, which is only The Czars. Bayside is 1-0, Arenas is 0-1, and the Degenerates are 1-1. This would give Bayside the 5th seed and the Degenerates the 6th seed, and Arenas would be eliminated.

3. Degenerates lose both

Czars win the division, leaving Bayside, Arenas, and Crunch Bunch at 8-7. Once again, assuming it's not just overall record among games played between the 3 teams in H2H it would go to conference record, where Crunch Bunch would again be eliminated. This leaves Bayside and Arenas, where Arenas holds the 1-0 record over Bayside, giving Arenas the 5th seed and Bayside the 6th seed.


This was made given a few assumptions which should be clarified before the Degenerates play on Monday night.

1. If 3+ teams are tied, does H2H get thrown out the window if 2 (or more) teams haven't played each other, or is the collective H2H record among the tied teams used (i.e. record for each team against all of the other tied teams combined)? If it's not a collective H2H record (and 2 or more teams haven't played each other), would it then rank Bayside above Crunch Bunch because they are 2-0 against Crunch Bunch, and Arenas above Bayside (1-0 against Bayside) even though Crunch Bunch never played Arenas?

2. If, in going through the order of the tiebreaker among 3 teams, one team wins the 5th seed, does it go back to the beginning of the tiebreaker between the 2 teams trying for the 6th spot? It seems like if a team gets the 5th seed in the process and it goes down to 2 teams, between the 2 teams it goes back to the beginning original tiebreaker procedure between the 2 teams, as it would be if one team is eliminated because of a tiebreaker and leaves 2 teams left. However, in the event of a 4 way tie it seems like after 1 team is eliminated, it keeps going down the tiebreaker list until either another team is eliminated or another team wins the 5th seed.

This is how it seems to be laid out (according to Sleuthis' post in an earlier thread. I think decisions regarding the exact tiebreaking procedures as I've laid out need to be settled before the Degenerates play so that there isn't any complaining afterwards. Hopefully I helped in my analysis, I know this must be a tough job for Sleuthis.

Add it Gilbertology.. I see your wheels turning go go go

Sleuthis said he'll figure everything out after all the games have been played this week. Right now he's really busy with everything going on in Vegas. Although the tiebreaking rules were stated, they are open to interpretation for what happens if more than two teams are tied. For example the head-to-head record as jbradburn was saying is the first tiebreaker, but we don't know if that means if all teams that are tied have had to play each other for it to factor in first, or at all, or if its bypassed but then come back to later again. If we were playing under the exact NFL rules then we could probly figure this out, but that wasn't stated either. If Degens win, it will probly come down to some play-in games, but don't take my word on that cuz sleu is the commish and he'll come up with a fair way of sorting things out.

Ok let it out, what did he say about best record.. come on dont hold me is suspense..

he said 5150s definitely get best record....sike. In my humble opinion, I think you guys should split with whoever is the #1 seed in spades conference.

I see your point.. But I have a teammate, so I need his opinion..

Well, looking through the spades thread we may never know the seeding for the top 3 or 4 teams, so while they argue you can slip away with all the money yourself. I propose we all say nothing about playoffs until sleuthis has decided things, then we can start blasting him. sw

edit: looks like croc got his flight time wrong so all games may not be played until Tuesday, more bickering to come.

If they gave us the best record money today, by the time they have the spades conference worked out, I would have the money spent!

i wouldnt be opposed to splitting the best record money with the spades #1 seed, but as of now i THINK that its either us or demented avengers. if DA gets #1, then they're tiebreakers are better, but if anyone else gets it, then the 5150's get it. this was before i lost to crunch bunch, and before everyone else lost, and i dont remember who played what and where and when, but we definately have to let sleuthis figure it out.

poor *******

As much as I'd like the Degenerates to lose so I'd win the division, noone wants Hossiers to win more than Sleuthis. He should be placed on salary. Gl Sleuthis, better you than me.

Guys

With all of this discussion over playoffs, I just want to take a second to reiterate my thoughts on tiebreakers for playoff's. I know we can't make any changes to rules now, but it is something to think about for the subsequent years.

Basically, in a nutshell, NO TEAM SHOULD BE ELIMINATED FROM PLAYOFFS VIA TIEBREAKERS!!!! I understand using tiebreakers for best division record, best regular season record, and for seedings. In all of the cases I mentioned, the teams in question here would all be in the playoff and have the chance to prove who is best.

In a system where tiebreakers leave teams out, you will always have someone mad over why they didn't get in. Now, before anyone gets the wrong idea and thinks this has to do w/ my team likely getting bubbled out via tiebreakers. I made this suggestion 2 weeks ago BEFORE I knew we had a tiebreaker in place. Here is my suggestion for future years for teams tied for a wild card birth.

3 teams tied- Seed it #1-#3 according to tiebreakers....#1 seed gets in via tiebreakers and #2 and #2 play off for last spot.

4 or more teams tied- Round Robin or Playoff Bracket to determine winner.

I won't get into this too deeply...this is just MY thoughts on how to break ties for playoffs.

Basically it comes down to what is the fairest way to break the ties...

A. A tiebreaker sysytem
B. Play it off to see who deserves to get in.

Thanks for listening guys and good luck no matter how this turns out!!!

Vick12

yea im sure this has absolutely nothing to do with you going 5-0 down the stretch making an improbable playoff run only to have you end up getting bubbled.

i know what you're saying, and maybe they can change it in the future, but in such a short season (alf's 81 game season wouldnt have these problems heh) there have to be tiebreakers in place because ties will happen, especially in the highest variance league possible.

Flu,

1st...quit changing cold remedy's on me...I was just getting used to Theraflu and now u give me Dayquil....sigh!

2nd...I bolded the above portion of your statement. I can see how this could EASILY be misconstrued as a way to get my team in the playoffs. In reality...this is the way I would feel even if my team were in by every tiebreaker possible.

Again...this isn't something I am "campaigning" to be changed this season. I honestly think the best way to break any ties for teams involved in a playoff is to play the matches.

I should give some of you a little bit of my background on this. I was a Volleyball coach for almost 15 years. I am currently the Facility Manager at a Volleyball Facility and I currently run tournaments and such. In USA Volleyball, who governs basically any tournament I run, they have provisions in place where any teams that are tied for playoff contention CANNOT BE ELIMINATED BY TIEBREAKERS. In the event of 2 or mor teams being tied, you MUST have a 1 game playoff to determine who moves on. This is to protect against some teams being in stronger pools and getting hosed for it.

Example: Team A is 2-1 in matches (and 6-2 in games)in Pool A and played VERY tough competitions.
Team B is 2-1 in matches (and is 6-4 in games) in Pool B and played WEAK competition by comparison.

Now...both are 2-1. Since we can't quantify legitimately who was stronger...we play it off for a game to see who's best.

Again...JUST MY THOUGHTS! I think in a situation like we are about to face in this league...we make EVERYONE'S life easier by just playing it off. Then there is no way for anyone to say they didn't have a chance at the playoffs.

And...FWIW...just to sorta prove my argument...we are likely getting booted due to our inferior conferance record.

It's been stated on NUMEROUS occasions that the Spades conferance is FAAAAR superior than the Hearts. (SW OBV!) Well...if the Spades is indeed the better conferance, wouldn't our better record OUT OF CONFERANCE be a true indicator we are CLEARLY THE BEST TEAM w/ a 8-7 record since we have a better out of conferance record?

Yes...clearly screaming into the wind over who's better is a clearly better option than playing!

(SW)

Later

Vick12

p.s. IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM AM I AGAINST ANYTHING SLEUTH HAS DONE....This is simply MY IDEA TO MAKE THINGS BETTER!

I have to disagree with your first scenario. I cannot foresee any situation in which a team that is lower than me in my own division (Arenas) gets in before me (The Czar's). That being said, I do not pretend to have any idea how Sleuthis will figure this out.

yea i was kind of kidding, i know you posted this a few weeks ago. you make some good points, and im sure no one would really object to having to play your way in.

This is true. Now that I am positive of how the rules work, I will fix Bradburn's post.


There, that looks about right.

sweet, so as long as we win week 15, were in the playoffs...either as a division winner or a wc.

That seems accurate. Hopefully 3 in our division get in. Any word on your match time? I gotta get the popcorn ready.

according to bizzle, if we win today, arenas is mathmatically eliminated.(i think, i might have to reread bizzles edit.)

crocds plans changed and hes still in vegas, he pmed me this morning with his cell #, im going to call him soon so we arrange a time for tonight...

i will post the time in the pre game thread as soon as i know.

i know you will be rooting for me tonight czar, along with arenas bayside and crunch bunch... wish me luck guys.

Vatche I hope you win th OnGame Classic and follow that up with becoming the next protege, but as for tonight...

I hope you go broke on the first hand.

LMAO...

i would gladly make that trade, but i might have to kick back a lil somthn somthn to seac.

I dont know if we would be eliminated if Degens won, but again thats up for sleuthis to decide. Bizzle, Sleuthis has never given any definitive rules on the tiebreakers so you are most likely wrong as you were in your rant for the other conference. Let the commish decide how things work out when he gets the time.
What I'm saying is what I said earlier, we don't know if we are following the exact nfl tiebreakers or not. Therefore, even tho sleuthis has a list of what takes precedent, no one is sure how it will work out in practice. For example, whether or not you eliminate teams until you get one playoff seed, then take the remaning teams for the second playoff seed. Only in the NFL does this thing of eliminating one team per division occur, and this isn't the NFL. All I'm saying is let sleuthis figure it out, and I think it may end up coming down to play in games as in spades conference.

I think the only one positive about the rules is Sleuthis, I was just saying what I thought was most plausible given the ranking Sleu posted a couple weeks ago. I guess we'll see tonight/tomorrow.

I think what it really comes down to is tonight. Win and Degnerates can go on...lose, and they're out!

Common Vatche...think in the now!

and then there was one match left

3. Degenerates lose

Czars win the division, leaving Bayside, Arenas, and Crunch Bunch at 8-7. For the first tiebreaker, eliminate Crunch Bunch for not being the best ranked-team in their division. Arenas won H2H over Bayside, so they get the 5 seed. Then, between Bayside and Crunch Bunch, Bayside gets the 6 seed due to H2H.

This makes the playoffs as such:
1. 5150's
2. Cheap Thieves
3. HC Dukes
4. The Czars
5. Team Arenas
6. Bayside

but can a team play someone from their own division in the first round of the playoffs?

Edit: Also, some of the H2H stats are wrong on the FCPHU page. At least some of mine are. I'll wait for Sleuth to clear it up.

Yes. Only Baseball makes it so you can't play a team from your division.

Also, why is Cheap Thieves above me when we have the same record but I beat them H2H?

There are 3 teams tied at 8-7 that won their division: Czars, Thieves, and Dukes.

For the 2 seed

H2H, no team swept the series.

Conference record, Thieves and Dukes are tied at 8-4, Czars are 7-5.

Common opponents, Thieves are 5-1 while Dukes are 3-3. Thieves get the 2 seed.

For the 3 seed

H2H, Dukes and Czars didn't play each other.

Conference record, Dukes are 8-4, Czars are 7-5. Dukes are the 3 seed and Czars are 4 seed.