I know Daniel has talked about playing 5/10 or 10/20 on like $200---"playing case money" as they say---but if you are almost broke losing the last $200 is nothing. It is quite another thing to get low when you are a multimillionaire.

Ok, so if DN can take a $1m loss in a session in stride, how much must his poker bankroll be? I'm NOT talking his net worth. I'm talking his cash (or immediately liquid assets) dedicated to poker/gambling.

To give us a little perspective down $1m in 4k/8k (I'm assuming those are the small and big blinds not small and big bets) is 125 bb's. That is NOT a lot in terms of bb's (at least I don't think it is). At 5/10 do you even flinch being down $1250? I know I don't...

I'm guessing if he can lose $1m in a session and still talk about it calmly on video he must have EDIT: $5m+ EASILY (but I'd guess more like $10m) in a dedicated poker bankroll. And I'm sure his net worth is many times that.

What do you think?

no way he has ten million in liquid cash. i would say that its around 3 or 4 million, tops.

ERRONEOUS

You think if he lost $3-4m he'd have to start selling stocks or property to play poker? Keep in mind, any money that he is counting on from a money market acct, etc. I am counting that as part of his bankroll since it is immediately available.

So if he has 2 or 3 more nights like last night, he has to start selling stuff off? I doubt it.

We will never find out because he will never tell. If i had to guess, I would say 10 million for poker and many other millions in assets.

im guessing somewhere in the neighborhood of eleventy brazillion dollars

and you know what? this is the best guess...because in the end...its nobodies business

Well put.

I wouldn't say his attitude towards losing a million is only based on his amount in his bankroll, but his confidence in able to win that back could happen just as fast as he lost it.

We need to understand that if he won a million he wouldn't react like it is THAT big of a deal as it sounds. A million sounds like a lot of money but when you're playing cash games where some pots get as high as $300,000 it isn't that big after all.

This is his job, he needs large sums of money to make large sums of money, and who knows he could get in a horrible run for months like any other poker player.

It is too hard to predict his bankroll and net worth (Factoring in this years and the previous years, tournaments, cash game results, promotion fees if any, investments, various bets including other activities. ),

My guess is as good as the next guy's guess.



And to say it is none of our business is true, but we obviously know when a person is involved in a high $ environment people love to know the juicy facts and gaze at his high net worth.

It will come up again and again. I'm sure Daniel is not offended by it as I'm sure he has had the question come up many times before.

Whether he tells or not, Daniel can't win. People will flame him for coming out and saying he has X amount of dollars and also they'll flame him for not coming out and saying it.

You think if he lost $3-4m he'd have to start selling stocks or property to play poker?


No, he'd borrow some from other top players. They all understand that anyone can run bad and he's good for it.

At least upwards near 10+million. Easily.

Matusow stakes him

I don't think he was very upset about losing over $1 Million in the big game because he was up over $1 Million in the big game so far this year. He even said in the video blog that after that big loss, he was still up for the year in that game.

Just finished counting... sorry about the delay: eleventy brazillion, six hundred and twelve thousand, four hundred and twenty eight dollars and sixty four cents.

Is that counting the 5 spot you owe me for the pitas we had last week?

ha ha i have more than you ! eleventy brazillion, six hundred and twelve thousand, four hundred and twenty eight dollars and sixty five cents.



my good for nothing guess would be net worth 12 million.. +/- 12 million !

JJJJJesus everyone loves to talk about this, lets say this, Im sure the guys bankroll is healthy, and Im sure if he went broke he would be able to make it back. His skill will still be present unless he gets hit by a bus, so I dont think he's hitting the ultra panic button just yet. I can't talk for everyone but I've gone through my entire roll a couple times and although it sucked I was still confident that I could come back and I did. When you succeed at a level for a good period, it should not be as difficult to go back to that level and build again. This is the ups and downs of poker, DN is a great player but everyone takes a big loss once in a while, like life you just have to keep plugging away

Don't get me wrong: I am not coming at this from the perspective of, "Geee, I really wanna know how much DN is WORTH"

It is much more of the intellectual question of how the biggest of big time players manage their bankroll. It is not about the raw numbers per se, more about how they handle various PERCENTAGE swings of their roll.

*cough - fcp poker room


He gots himself a cut of that - makes up for any big game.

Read Greenstein's book. He says that many high stakes players have lending agreements with a few players they trust. In this way, players are able to have a virtual bankroll greater than the actual cash they have sitting around. And because they have this virtual bankroll, more cash can be invested outside the poker economy.

Millions, schmillions. He knows he'll win it back. It's not real money. It's keeping score. His bankroll is investment capital. He's fully capitalized and has access to all he will ever need. He's got enough of a history of playing the big game to trust his swings, his ups and downs.

I doubt Andy Beal, the real Andy Beal, doesn't sweat his bankroll. He's got all he will ever need. Nice position to be in if you can arrange it.

Part of the pressure in the big game is "who has the biggest bankroll." Andy played headsup with the Corporation, and put the pressure on them by using his unlimited bankroll. Even the pros had to stop and think about the money he was willing to throw at them. His edge was his unlimited cash...their edge was they were better players than him. He leveled the play by putting pressure on them via his money. That's why he was always attempting to raise the stakes in his heads up matches against them. He was wanting to make the pros nervous about the amount of money.

DN didn't seem too nervous, or worried, about losing a million. Whatever his bankroll, he evidently isn't under any pressure to sell his home. Not yet anyway.

see i knew i was close!

classic

As far as I know, he already made $1 mm this year in the big game. He actually explains this in his blog.

The only thing that I don't understand is this: What is his expected winnings from such a tough game as the big game.... Does he really think he can make money playing the big game...

Is that a legitimate question or should we just whop you on the head now?

dns total worth as of today is $7,462,668

Got to have at lease 5 million to take a 1 million loss in stride - think about it not that big a deal losing 20% of your bkroll in a night it happens - up and down

not quite, i believe you are stating the amount of his all time tournament winnings (which happens to be second only to Joseph Hachem )

So whens the next time DN is playing in the Big Game?
You think the million dollar loss will affect his play next time he sits down?

Annnndd for the big game 1 million isn't that big of a loss, other players lose way more than that in one session.

This is from the pokerstars blog.
Yesterday Barry Greenstein said to me, "The best time to play cash games is during the Main Event, because when people bust out they come over and tilt off all kinds of money. Last year, when I busted out of the Main Event, I blew three million in one session."

My heart stopped for a full minute when he said that, and I just said, "Uh, that sucks."

"It's okay," he said. "I eventually won it all back."

that also reassures us he will most likely easily get it back

Clearly this is a world in which the average person cannot relate. No matter how much it is or isn't its still more than any of us can imagine. Often I wonder, what I would do should I win the lottery. 1 Million, man, I could make it the rest of my days with that money.

GG

That took you waaaaaaaaaay too long.



I think you were busy swimmimg...

wow, 3 million, that's just sick.

4k/8k are the limits, not blinds im pretty sure.

4k, 8k are the limits or the blinds depending on what they feel like playing, DN has said they when "Sammy" (Anyone who dosen't know who this is should stop reading now and admit to being a lifelong total fish) want to play the play alot of PL Omaha Hi, normally with a cap (50k-100k depending on their moods) other times there are some triple draw games, occoassional single draw (except for the infamous 5 card draw, hi-low split, only game I've heard of to be illegal in Nevada) Stud (hi, hi-low, razz) Hold'em (NL, PL or Limit), Omaha (PL Hi, PL Hi-Lo, Limit Hi-Lo) if they get the real crazys out there I wouldn't be suprised to see some Pineapple (crazy or not), or even the rarley played game of Tahoe (Get 3 cards like PinAp, keep all, must play 1 or 2 from hand with the board, has a Hold'em-like board and betting rounds). I bet all games are played, it all depends on the moods and the players playing that night. So if this was the "Sammy" game then 125BB or even if the blinds are 2k, 4k to compensate (Keeping the Big Blind always at 4k) losing $1mil is still only 250BB (Big Blinds) a swing of that size in a PL or NL game is very normal I would have to think. (Just think a small stakes NL player playing NL$25 (25c, 50c blinds) wolud have to loose just $125 to make this swing size, I bet most here have bult stacks that size on such games and lost getting cracked in 1 hand, so over a night it can't be that huge of a swing, probably not even the worst night at the table from an absolute standpoint. (Greenstien's $3Mil night for example)

Basically I'm saying that a swing like this is all too possible if DN dosen't get a set of games that works well aginst the other players and he gets accompanied by cold cards/decks. Remember in this game a deck that looks like a cold deck can have pots that are just ridiculaus, cost you alot of money

Jasper

I happened to be playing the high-stakes 4-8 (that's whole dollars!) game at the Bellagio when Phil Ivey and Sammy Farha were playing some other guy..I can only assume a rich fish or non-tourney cash game player.

I sort of wonder how the "big game" works. I mean do the top pros just keep pushing chips around to each other, or more likely, do they just feed off the rich guys who want to take a crack at them? Do some of the almost but not quite top pros play in the game, but regularly take a beating?

I'm guessing if he can lose $1m in a session and still talk about it calmly on video he must have EDIT: $5m+ EASILY (but I'd guess more like $10m) in a dedicated poker bankroll. And I'm sure his net worth is many times that.

What do you think?
[/quote]

I think that Daniel is capable of regaining that at any point in time and the reason he takes the loss in stride is because he has postioned himself for those losses should they occur.
It's all about bankroll management, and I think Daniel knows what he's doin.

Daniel made over 400,000 just the other night playing. So it's not like this is that bit of a swing. Variance at the stakes he plays could be huge. I'm sure he's sitting pretty. I'm also sure that he has a lot more of the +400,000$ nights than the losing nights.

smugtrometer, where are thou

DN re-bought ~50x $1000 at WSOP NLHE rebuys tourney this year and said he did it for fun. So, $50K is fun money. What is fun money? If someone has no liquid assets , makes $100K / year , fun money is probably $1000 tops, or 1/100 annual income. Figure, like avg highly successful person, DN has 10x annual income in liquid disposable assets. Assume DN is prudent about core property ownership, long-term retirement and family-oriented investments, etc. and these are not perceived as part of bankroll. Figure 10% ROI on portfolio , so income from portfolio ~= annual income. So, 2 x (DN annual poker revenue) = 50K * 100 , so DN annual poker revenue = $2.5M. Figure endorsements, FCP, etc. = 50%, playing poker = 50%. Figure playing poker ROI 5%. Bankroll x 0.05 = 2.5M x 0.5. Bankroll = $25M.

I had always guessed somewhere in the 18-20 million range, between his (according to Hendon Mob) $7.5 million career in tournaments that was considerably less than half that before his stellar 2004, even though he had been playing in the big game before his big tournament year, but I would be massively unsurprised to find out that, including other deals, he has around twice that to work with.

I'm sure Daniel's bankroll is adequate to the task. If asked to guess, I would guess that his liquid cash would be 20 to 25 times his largest loss -- in this case $1M. I would think it would be difficult to play without worrying about the money otherwise.

I think it would be interesting to see a breakout in percentage terms of his income from cash games, tournaments, endorsements, business ventures, real estate, etc.

More fascinating would be the system he uses to track wins, losses and their amounts as it relates to paying taxes, etc. What he is able to write-off as business expenses as aresult of his profession, etc.

Anybody else interested in that?

Burgerman

If by bankroll you mean net worth, i doubt you'll find an answer.

But if you want to know how much he has from cash games, he keeps pretty detailed figures in the results forum.


In the past year and a half,
he's up 208BB's in the 4000/8000
he's up 51BB's in the 3000/6000
he's up 121BB's in the 2000/4000
he's down about 1,075bb's in the 300/600NL

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...showtopic=37466

A million dollar downswing is equal to almost half of what he's won in cash games since early 2005, according to that.


It's surprising to me how little he's played in these big games. It's a lot of money, but relative to the stakes, it's not much at all. Given how tough the games are and how low of a winrate even the best player can expect to have, there would have to be a lot stockpiled from earlier years and other areas (tournaments and product endorsements) for him to be playing with a lot of security.

But it wouldnt surprise me if he was playing with less than what many of us would consider wise. Im pretty sure i remember hearing stories about him playing in games a while back where he had only a few buy ins to his name (i could be mistaken).

I think to be a top player, you have to disregard bankroll management. Bankroll management is for average joes like us. I think these top guys play their best and get a rush by putting it all on the line. They also can borrow or have people willing to stake them if they do go bust.
I guess back when DN was younger, if he went bust, he could always go home to Mom and grind at 10 20 again.