I think when we're all teenagers, the hip thing to do is ignore God and pretend like there's nothing out there.

I don't know if it's because my family liked sleeping in on Sundays, or whatever, but Church never held much interest for me. Even the times when my girlfriend in high school asked me to attend, I always felt out of place. I felt weird being asked to take things on faith, that an all knowing being was watching me, that a man 2,000 years ago died on the cross and if I believed in Him, I would go to heaven. I not only didn't believe he died on the cross, I doubted whether or not he even existed! For quite some time, I didn't feel spiritual, or believed in any God whatsoever.

When I was 20 years old, I was an RA in college. Part of being an RA is going to retreats. This particular retreat was held at a Bahai camp. For those of you who haven't even heard of the Bahai faith, don't worry, you're not alone. If you want to know more, look at wiki's explantion here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahai

Essentially it's a faith that accepts all faiths and all man as a unity of God. It says that all religions are the same, it's just a different way of looking at them. The best explanation I heard, was imagine nine different blind men hanging onto a different piece of an elephant. Each blind man is going to have a different outlook on what an Elephant looks like. Bahai respects each's religion's take on what/who God is. I like that. I like it a lot. It also doesn't accept contribution in any form. There's no tithing. They just ask you

I'm sure I'm prolly the only one in the forum who follows this, but does anyone else know about Bahai? I'm very interested in getting into it and learning more about it. I know it sounds like a splinter cult, but I don't think it is. At least no more or less than any other major religion. I'm curious to hear what your thoughts are on this religion.

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what's the point of god then? seems pretty useless.

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nope...still dont understand.

I don't really think it sounds like a religion as much as a theology/philosophy. If you can't really tell who God is, then you can't really worship/teach much, huh? Unless you took like the top 10 religions, and taught only their consistencies.

I agree with Donkslayer . . . it sounds more like a philosophy than a religion. I'm not sure what I think about a "philosophy" where there is no absolute. It sounds like it basically tells you to believe what you want . . . so in essence . . . what is the point of it?

I agree that it seems more a philosophy than a religion, but disagree that it has no point. All religions are philosophies at heart, then are given whatever rules and procedures that resemble what we recognize as a religion.
Read the Wikipedia page, it has some interesting stuff. Basically, it is a religion based on acceptance and peace. The stuff about Bahaullah being a messenger of god bothered me, since many people believe in different, none, or many gods. Saying he is a messenger of god implies a certain belief in a certain god or system of gods, which does not fit in with the basis of acceptance of all religion.

that seems a minor point though. whether its a philosophy or a religion, it seems positive and interesting.

i know a fair number of people that consider themselves bahai. they're very happy people. i hope your decision works out for you, too.

That's bahai's view on other religiions, but they themselves have holy books and scriptures, it truely is a religion just an accepting of other religions one. I don't know much about bahai ism, but they have a bahai temple about a mile frome where I went to college in willimette, ill, a near north suburb of chicago, right on sheridan road ( the road that lakeshore turns into north of chicago) A pretty beautiful place, but if bahai really doesn't take contributions, I don't know how the hell this thing got built.

What's the point of God in any religion? With the Bahai, he's still the same God. Just a total sum of all of God's wisdom throughout the world's religions. Essentially no one religion is any more "right" than any of them are wrong. It's the idea that all the religions are right. That's what I like the most about the Bahai faith.

I never got why God would create mankind and then say, OK, Christianity is the one true religion, so that means a full two thirds of the world are going to hell. In my ever present wisdom, I made a baby be born into a place where all they will ever know is Islam, which means you're never going to know Jesus and accept/bring him into your heart. Essentially, it seems like he's condemning that person to hell.

What about the native tribes in the middle of South America that has never seen a white face, never known what Jesus is? I never understood why God would say, "OK, I created you, but then condemnded you to Hell because you'll never know that in order to get to Heaven, you need Jesus in your heart. But, meh...I know that won't happen...so I guess you'er going to Hell.

The very idea of Heaven and Hell isn't so much that you're burning like it's described in the Bible. It's just a matter of your closeness to God in general. The further away you are, the more in Hell you are. But that doesn't apply to that tribe in South America. So long as they follow their religion and try to apply themselves to their version of God, the closer they will be in his Kingdom.

I like that idea.



I quoted this before I replied to the quote above...but I think I answered that question. God in any religion is totally unknowable because we as Human Beings lack the understanding/perception to know God.

A Bahai is just as comfortable studying the Bible as they are the Quoran (I know I misspelled that...I apologized). Incredibally enough, even Scientology falls under the Bahai faith.

Essentially every religion teachs the same thing. Be a good person and you'll get into Heaven. Be a bad person and you'll go to hell. That's the point of the Bahai faith. It takes all the parts good and bad from all religions and teaches you how to be a better person.

Ricker, I'm going to bat grammar clean-up for you, "Quran" or "Koran". Been out to Sycuan lately? I'm in need of a session, maybe sometime this week..

lol...thank you kindly...I thought I saw it written as Quran...but I managed to make an amalgamation of the both.

I can't make any poker runs this week....I'm killing myself at work. I've got a pretty large project in the works that I can't really talk about yet. But when it comes down, I think people around SD are gonna be pretty stoked.

Oh so you pull a DN and annouce a huge sick project... that you can't talk about just yet.. bollocks! Well, when you get a chance to make a run give me a holler.

PM me your cell/phone number....

ricker,

would you say that Christianity is true then?

I'd say Christianity is a version of the truth.

Wikipedia does more justice than my limited understanding of it (you gotta understand that this is my first foray into researching this religion), but according to the Bahai faith, each religion is right in it's own respect. I know this sounds counter intuative, but each religion is right, and each one is wrong. It's about the unity of religion. The idea that we're all saying the same thing different ways.

dunno, i'm agnostic.



most differing religious beliefs are directly contradictory, so to say they can all be right in any sense is even more pointless than fundamentalism. if god can be anything you want why bother with god at all.



so in other words christianity is wrong.



creating your own personal designer religion based on your personal values? why not make yourself god and worship yourself? that makes more sense.



then how do we know he exists at all?



lol



no they don't, unless you make up your OWN personal non-literal interpretations of them all that fundamentalists would never accept to try to make them fit together. again, bothering with that is even more pointless than fundamentalism.

I used to be too



Because the idea of God is that there is a benevolent force guiding us through the universe. That there is a higher power that man are not meant to understand.



I'm not saying fundamentally Christianity is anymore wrong that what Islamist believe, or what the Jews believe. Like I said, I know it's counter intuative, but every single religion gets it right, in their own way, and every single one gets it wrong as well. It's the idea that there very idea of religion is united through the common thread of a higher power.


Not at all. It's the idea of unified religion as a whole.



It's not like I don't have trouble swallowing that anymore than you do. But according to the Bahai faith, that's what's going on.



I guess it's somewhat comparable to one big jigsaw puzzle that man is never going to be able to solve. I'm certaintly not qualified for the job.

can you guys try and fix up those posts, i'm going blind trying to read them. maybe split them up into two?

thanks

I know, I don't know why the quoting option isn't working...I'll work on it.

then why bother? what's the point of even paying attention?

anyway i was more trying to point out that if that is what you believe why would you want to endorse fundamentalism in any way? why justify fundamentalism by saying it is "part of" the truth of god, since fundamentalism is necessarily exclusive? if you want to believe in a generic benevolent creator aren't you better off pointing out that fundamentalism is WRONG, rather than "part right"?



many religions believe in multiple higher powers, or the power of a collective whole or whatever. religious belief is much too varied and complex to lump in that way.

Here's the real deal...in all honesty, I don't know even close enough to argue intelligently regarding this point. I don't know much about Bahai so far as what I've read online so far on Wiki and on the Bahai website. I would need at least a few more years of deep reading in my newly chosen faith than the self admittedly pathetic amount of what I know right now.

The idea of Unity of All religion and mankind really appeals to me which is why I first posted on this topic. I am way too ignorant to argue this point intelligently so I will have to defer until I learn more about this religion.

I do thank you for reminding me of my obvious ignorance thus far ...I promise I'll read more and look into answering your question.

This is incorrect. The Bible doesn't saying anything like this.



Also, your quoting is messed up because the post is too long. You won't be able to fix it now, but when you are the last post and it does that, just highlight half the post in full edit mode and then apply edit. Then make a new post and paste the other half and post again... it will appear as one long post in the right format.

The Bible isn't a religion. It is a religious text.

Very True, but it implies that I was talking about Christianity, since 'the Bible' implies the Old and New Testaments. Therefore, the only religions I could be referring to are Christian based religions.

Whats the point in not believing in God? Scared that there is something out there science cant explain? Something, that even if you spent millions of years researching and experimenting, could not find the rhyme or reason to why He exists, his purpose, or our purpose?

Your quest to turn believers into non-believers is pretty useless. The whole God does or doesnot exist arguement is getting old on this forum. You cant prove he doesnt, and I cant prove he does.

you should read the whole thread before responding. this isn't about believing in god, it's about a theism that tries to make god flexible enough to validate all fundamentalist beliefs at the same time, which is what i said makes god pointless (or even more pointless than usual).

the point to not believing blindly in fundamentalism is to stay in touch with physical reality for the good of the earth and humanity.

the point to not believing blindly in a generic version of god is to not indirectly lend support to destructive fundamentalism.



no, the only thing i'm scared of is that pointless religious fundamentalism will lead to global catastrophy. and who says our existence necessarily has a purpose? i'm not about to assume that.



it can certainly be proved beyond a reasonable doubt to any objective person that the specific christian version of god does not exist, and i assume there are at least a few objective fence sitters reading these threads. otherwise as far as i know nobody here is spending much time seriously debating whether a generic creator exists or not.

Bahai is not a religion as many think it is.
it is about appreciating your own god.
anyone according to bahai can go and pray to their own god in their temples.
however most religions forbid going to other churches and temples to pray, so it really means nothing

thats why there are people who are going to other countries to spread the word of God. Also God (and going by the bible dont come up with some God isnt real crap) says in the bible that he is a just God. If someone hasnt had the opportunity to hear about God then he will be fair. We dont know what that means in detail but the way i see it is that he will look at them as what kind of a person they are.
If a person has had the opportunity to learn about God and his word but just chooses to not do anything about it imo deserves hell. i dont want anyone to go to hell but (and im not going to be nice about it) they really do deserve it.

Well, I'll say hi to Bob hope for you then.

If you don't assume we have a purpose, then please go kill yourself right now. Seriously. No purpose, no point. Even if we discount a divine purpose, or something related to god/religion, the purpose of life for most organisms is to reproduce. So for you to assume we have none, is quite stupid.


Yes, you're right, I didnt read the whole thread, but I read your comment. I just didnt like your tone, it upset me, and of course being on the otherside of the spectrum, motivated me enough to post a comment.

Again, if you would like to post "proof" of the Christian God not existing, Im welcome to at least reading through it. I do hope you mean the Muslim and Jewish God as well, as technically, they are all the same. But hey, you should know that.

i'm not assuming anything. and you were obviously referring to purpose in the sense of higher "meaning" to existence, not simple bio-mechanical function as purpose.

meaning to life can certainly be whatever you make it to be, even if it's just to have fun. no reason to kill yourself just because there might not be a higher meaning or purpose.



proof beyond a reasonable doubt (which is the best you can do) has been hashed in many threads here. involves things like illogic of the fluxuating nature of god and illogic of the concept of sin/redemption as desribed in the bible, countless biblical contradictions both internally and to the modern physical world, dubious nature of the origins of the bible etc.

obviously the jewish and muslim faiths have origins based on the same fables as christianity, but the modern details of these faiths are very different. in that sense they do not believe in the same god.

You my friend, do not know anything concerning religion then. Maybe you should actually go and study,before you make incomponent statements as above.

what's incomponent mean?

i said they believe in the same god based on origin, but their interpretations of the details of god's actions/intents are so different that they effectively all believe in a different version of god, duh.

or are you just trying to be a bahai-ist?

The first part of this post sucks. If anything, athesists are the ones that "aren't scared." Beleivers need God because they are afraid of what happens do them after they die, and need some explanation to hang on to. There are a ton of things I don't know (actually, like Socrates, I know I don't really know anything), and I'm completely at peace with that. And I am at peace with the fact that there may indeed be no life after death. Are you?

The second part of your post is right on. Of course, I'd argue that the onus of proof is on you believers, and that any proof you offer is just nonsense, and that in most arguements even the most intelligent believers use really dumb logic, but I won't waste my breath because your point of how it is next to impossible to change a believers mind is 100% true.



Uh, you don't have to be a religious scholar to point out the fallacy in it's basic premises. You just need a brain thats not washed.

LOL i quit. I cannot argue with atheists. You guys are relentless, and frankly believing in God isnt a side that has a ton of great evidence to back it up.

It depends what you can accept as evidence. Some people have a heart to serve God- some don't. That comes into play more than soem would be willing to accept.

Here's how I look at it. Believe in whatever you want to. Whatever makes your life more complete and helps ya sleep at night or whatever. By all means, go ahead. It doesnt affect me. Just as what I believe doesn't (and shouldnt) affect or change your beliefs or ideas. George Carlin was right. We need to add a commandment that says "Thou shalt keep thy religion to thy self".

well as one of the "atheists" ill help you out some. if you only argue based upon strict logic and scientific evidence, religion is going to get slaughtered. especially since most of the people on these threads who are good at arguing tend to be agnostic or atheist.
what you need to do is a much better job of defending the position that there are important aspects to life that cannot be entirely demonstrated through logic or science. there are philosophers that do this, spinoza and kierkegaard come to mind first if you are looking for examples.
i am actually genuinely curious how much of what religious people believe is justified at some level and how much is based upon poor thinking. instead of thinking that we are always attacking the religious, think of it as us helping you eliminate the parts of your religion that are very unlikely to be true in order to find the more genuine core.

Anyone who wants to drag in the irrational where the lucidity and acuity of reason still must rule by right merely shows that he is afraid to face the mystery at its legitimate place. - Karl Mannheim

it is once we accept logic and science that religious thoughts get interesting. unfortunately, like many other people, religious people just do what feels good rather than go through the work of finding a religion worth believing. so we are just bogged down pointing out their errors rather than figuring out if there really is something to what they have to say.

Surrender accepted.

what others believe certainly does affect you unfortunately.

Well, the essential believe in God, or at least what Ive been taught, is one of faith. An example is, a blind man, hearing traffic, yet crossing the street, confident he will not get hit, due to the word of another man.

To tell you the truth, I'm not educated enough in physics, philosophy nor important religious literature. Thus, its quite hard to have strong arguements that support my side, as compared to the more educated(at least it seems this way) atheists.

most regular religious posters here (all?) seem out to defend christianty specifically, and while interesting, philosophical arguments for meaning to life/generic creator etc. won't help them.




seriously then, how do you discount the possibility that you might be wrong?

Yeah I could be. But again I bring back the faith thing. I myself, believe that I have a strong connection with God. Of course I could delusional, but if Im wrong, no harm done. If you're wrong...well you know.

I don't think people believe because that want some idea of what's going to happen to them after they die, but instead they want the idea of something bigger than themselves, or an explanation of what's beyond the physical world. I don't see anything wrong with that personally...

i don't see the difference.

Being afraid of what's beyond this life, and wanting to believe there's more beyond this life are two totally different concepts.

I probably don't have a great point, but I was discussing religion in general with a few friends of mine (I'm agnostic and so is my friend and the other two were christians that I grew up with) I used to be christian as a child and when I grew up I made the switch based upon what I knew to be true. Anyhow, me and my agnostic buddy feel that man's greatest weapons or tool is logic. Our christian friends only basic argument in the end was that faith overruled logic. This could be true, I suppose, but sense me and my buddy believe that logic is human's greatest weapon and tool we also therefore believe that there is no reason beyond all human comprehension to discount it. So therefore logic overrules faith by default. In other words, the person who believes in christianity, islam, buddisism, hinduism, or any other supernatural beyond human persception religion is equivalent to the homeless guy that believes he has a squirrel nest in his pants because he knows it to be true in his heart.
Also, they are finding that it is eventually possible to create life, because we already have the ability to create ameno acids out of a series of energy bursts and other well controlled circumstances. In other words the Big Bang theory... sort of. And if anyone doesn't know what ameno acids are, they are the basic components of human existance. So yea.. that's my $ 0.02

A true slap into the face to homeless people with squirrels nest in there pants. How dare you.