Here's a little... uhh... hypothetical situation, we'll say. Two people have met recently, and immediately hit it off. They've spent a few nights hanging out together talking, have a clear mutual interest in each other, and plans to go out real soon. The topic of religion has only popped up in passing once, with just a reference from the woman... we'll call her Susan... about going to church.

Through the wonders of the internet, the man... let's call him Al... discovers that religion is in fact a very central part of Susan's life. Al, however, not only isn't a follower of the same religion, but doesn't even believe in God. He's not your stereotypical atheist, though... his personal belief is that there is no God, but he has no issue at all with those who do believe, and no interest in convincing them to change their minds.

Susan doesn't yet know of Al's beliefs, or lack thereof. She's a very smart person... she doesn't seem at all judgemental to Al, but then again, he hasn't known her very long. Now we come to the questions.

1) If you're Al, do you bring it up right away, or do you wait and let it come out on its own naturally?

2) If you're Susan (and I know the description is vague), is this a dealbreaker?

If you take a minute to answer, let me know a little about your beliefs if you'll share so I know where to tell... Al... that the advice is coming from.

Theres an atheist stereotype? wow, i never knew that we're supposed to be preachy, how ironic. In my experience, atheists don't usually talk about religion because it is a non-issue for them.

1) I let it come along naturally. If you weren't really into her, then bring it up right away.

2) I tried, but there really isnt enough informatiion. Too many unknown factors, and it differs from person to person.

Not that it can speak for the entire population of athiests..but have you read this forum?

Interpretation one: If things are as you described, you have no business in this relationship, and she would have no interest in you if she knew the truth. Period. She's looking for things you can't give her, and you're looking for things you shouldn't take from her under these circumstances.

Interpretation two: Well hey, since you don't believe in God, you don't believe in Hell, right? So just do what makes you feel good and don't worry about the consequences. We're all just messed up almagamations of organic matter on one pale blue cosmic dot in a cold, dark universe. Rock on, dude.

Thats the point of a forum though, to argue about random **** and never accomplish anything. In real life, I've never met a preachy atheist.

It's only very loosely related, but someone just sent me this and I thought of this thread:



Girlfriend 6.0 vs. Wife 1.0 -Comparative Analysis

Last year a friend of mine upgraded from GirlFriend 6.0 to Wife 1.0 and found that it's a memory hog leaving very little system resources available for other applications. He is now noticing that Wife 1.0 is also spawning Child Processes which are further consuming valuable resources. No mention of this particular phenomena was included in the product brochure or the documentation, though other users have informed him that this is to be expected due to the nature of the application.

Not only that, Wife 1.0 installs itself such that it is always launched at system initialization, where it can monitor all other system activity. He's finding that some applications such as PokerNight 10.3, BeerBash 2.5, and PubNight 7.0 are no longer able to run in the system at all, crashing the system when selected (even though they always worked fine before). During installation, Wife 1.0 provides no option as to the installation of undesired Plug-Ins such as MotherInLaw 55.8 and BrotherInLaw Beta release. Also, system performance seems to diminish with each passing day.

Some features he'd like to see in the upcoming wife 2.0.
1. a "Don't remind me again" button
2. a Minimize button
3. An install shield feature that allows Wife 2.0 be installed with the option to uninstall at any time without the loss of cache and other system resources
4. An option to run the network driver in promiscuous mode which would allow the system's hardware probe feature to be much more useful.

I myself decided to avoid the headaches associated with Wife 1.0 by sticking with Girlfriend 7.0. Even here, however, I found many problems. Apparently you cannot install Girlfriend 7.0 on top of Girlfriend 6.0. You must uninstall Girlfriend 6.0 first. Other users say this is a long standing bug that I should have known about. Apparently the versions of Girlfriend have conficts over shared use of the I/O port. You think they would have fixed such a stupid bug by now. To make matters worse, The uninstall program for Girlfriend 6.0 doesn't work very well leaving undesirable traces of the application in the system. Another thing -- all versions of Girlfriend continually popup little annoying messages about the advantages of upgrading to Wife 1.0.

Bug Warning
Wife 1.0 has an undocumented bug. If you try to install Mistress 1.1 before uninstalling Wife 1.0, Wife 1.0 will delete MSMoney files before doing the uninstall itself. Then Mistress 1.1 will refuse to install, claiming insufficient resources.

Bug work-arounds: To avoid this bug, try installing Mistress 1.1 on a different system and never run any file transfer applications such as Laplink 6.0. Also, beware of similar shareware applications that have been known to carry viruses that may affect Wife 1.0. Another solution would be to run Mistress 1.1 via a UseNet provider under an anonymous name. Here again, beware of the viruses which can accidently be downloaded from the UseNet.

Tech Support Suggestions
These are very common problem men complain about, but is mostly due to a primary misconception. Many people upgrade from Girlfriend 6.0 to Wife 1.0 with the idea that Wife 1.0 is merely a Utilities & Entertainment program. Wife 1.0 is indeed an operating system and designed by its creator to run everything.

It is unlikely you would be able to purge Wife 1.0 and still convert back to Girlfriend 6.0. Hidden operating files within your system would cause Girlfriend 6.0 to emulate Wife 1.0 so nothing is gained. It is impossible to uninstall, delete, or purge the program files from the system once installed. You cannot go back to Girlfriend 6.0 because Wife 1.0 is not designed to do this.

Some have tried to install Girlfriend 7.0 or Wife 2.0 but end up with more problems than the original system. Look in your manual under "Warnings - Alimony/Child support". I recommend you keep Wife 1.0 and deal with the situation.

I suggest installing background application program C:\YES DEAR to alleviate software augmentation. Having installed Wife 1.0 myself, I might also suggest you read the entire section regarding General Partnership Faults (GPFs). You must assume all responsibility for faults and problems that might occur, regardless of their cause. The best course of action will be to enter the command C:\APOLOGIZE. In any case avoid excessive use of C:\YES DEAR because ultimately you may have to give the APOLOGIZE command before the operating system will return to normal. The system will run smoothly as long as you take the blame for all the GPFs.

Wife 1.0 is a great program, but very high-maintenance. Consider buying additional software to improve the performance of Wife 1.0. I recommend Flowers 3.1 and Diamonds 2K. Do not, under any circumstances, install Secretary with Short Skirt 3.3. This is not a supported application for Wife 1.0 and is likely to cause irreversible damage to the operating system.

Best of Luck,
Tech Support

1) If I were . . . umm Al . . . I wouldn't necessarily bring it up out of the blue. Just get to know her, spend time with her. If the topic comes up, then I think Al should be totally honest about his beliefs . . . or lack thereof.

2) Is this a dealbreaker? It really depends on what type of person she really is. If she is a TRUE Christian . . . then she has no right to judge you and will act as such. With that said, she may want to share her beliefs with you which you must be . . . I mean Al must be . . . willing to listen to.

People make religion, or belief in GOD out to be this horrible thing and think that Christians only associate with other Christians. That is so far from the truth. I am a Christian. All my friends are not. I have friends that are atheists, agnostics and yes Christians. I don't judge them and they don't judge me. Period. If you (Al) like this girl . . . get to know her. Don't let religion be a road block. It shouldn't be. You would be surprised at the number of married couples I personally know where one is a Christian, while the other is not. Remember, it's a personal choice.

Right. Hide your beliefs and build a relationship on lies by omission, then; when caught; use her own beliefs against her to justify your lies. Rock on, dude.

Note: ... "she has no right to judge you" references one of the most misquoted scriptures in the Bible. The verse does NOT read: "judge not," ... rather, it reads "judge not, lest ye be judged." Philosophies vary about the meaning of that, but to me it is a caution that says that you can go ahead and be judgemental as long as you understand and accept people being judgemental of you.

Damn, you caught me. Okay, it's me.

I'm not at all thinking of religion as a roadblock from my point of view. In fact, I think I prefer a different outlook... I'm already me, I don't need to date me. I'm concerned about how a strongly religious girl will view someone who doesn't believe in the existence of a central aspect of her life. Optimistically speaking, I see her as a very level-headed person, able to see what's good and what isn't regardless of faith.



You're a very bitter person, aren't you?

It's bad news bears, dude. Get out now.

You're a moron. I didn't say he should hide his beliefs. I just don't think it is such a big deal that the next time he sees her the first thing he says is, "hey guess what . . . I don't believe in GOD". I told him to be honest when the topic comes up.

As far as the meaning of that scripture . . . give me a break. The bible is very clear that GOD is the only one that has the right to judge us. My point was . . . If she is a true Christian she will not judge him based on the fact that he doesn't believe in GOD.

You always like to twist things people say and argue for no reason so I won't waste my time with you.

OP . . . Good Luck . . . I hope it works out well.

Well said

Christians not judging people is just about as likely to happen as all lions suddenly becoming vegetarians.

personally I think if it was that big of a concern for her in the first place, it would have come up by now. Most christians I know looking for a christian relationship will bring it up somehow. the question is what are you looking for?

most christians are looking for a life partner or at least someone they can share their lives with for some extended period of time. If she isnt looking for that then you may be in luck but I dont know many christians who are just looking for 'roll in the hay'. (If she is serious about it...there are plenty of self professed christians who rarely express it in their daily activities.) It sounds to me that you have gotten the vibe that her faith in God is really strong and that it is a big part of her life. I might want to dig deeper into that and at least show interest. I mean if you are truly attracted to her then I would put up a wall at religion, it sounds like its a big part of who she is.

If its that big of a problem when its brought up, well then there is answer.

Just remember if you are looking for a 'roll in the hay', there are plenty of agnostic hotties out there, and if you want something real and lasting good luck to you, its not easy for anyone (finding a 'soulmate'...if you believe in such things!)



are you saying ALL christians are judgmental? Thats interesting.

Bring it up soon. Have a long, and EXTREMELY clear discussion about it.

You need to find out now whether this will be a huge roadblock for you in the future. Seriously. Weddings, how to raise kids, what to do on holidays etc...find out now if you'll be a good match.

No thats not what I'm saying. It was a joke, hence the " ". Cant deny that many Christians are judgmental though.

yeah televangelists, stereotypes and legalistic believers dont help the stigma, ill give you that. But we arent all bad. DN is a christian, he seems pretty cool.

To be honest, my experience has shown non-judgemental Christians to be the exception, not the rule.

That's why I always found the "judge not" passage to be so ironical.

Of course that doesn't mean you are all bad, or even that the judgemental ones are bad people in general. It just means the way Christianity is taught seems to convince most Christians that they have the right to judge anyone that doesn't agree with their beliefs.

Well I can tell you one thing is for sure that is NOT what the bible teaches. the problem seems to be that the pursuit of holiness or the biblical life sometimes means seperating yourself from some worldy things. Sometimes that rubs people the wrong way and sometimes that person just goes about it in the wrong way. i.e. some christian will tell non-believers that living with/and having sex with their girlfriend/boyfriend is wrong in an attempt to lead them to Christ, but forgets that pointing out to someone who doesnt believe what you believe, that what you think is sin, is sin, well it just doesnt click, and why should it?

I would never go up to a gay person and say you are gay and that is wrong because God says so. I would approach them with love and point out that all sin is equal in the eyes of God and that ive been saved from my sin just as he can be saved from his, whatever it may be (whether its a tendency to steal, or lie, or any of the other things the Bible declares as sinful.)

Ive found that while most people have good intentions the few that fleck the flock with misconstrued ideas of what Jesus was all about, tend to cause more damage than good. All we can do is try and represent Christ the best we know how and hopefully not pass judgment in the process. God is the Judge not me and not you.

Ok, here's the thing. You believe that the Bible tells you everything you need to know about what is right and wrong in life. You think that these are God's words and that through them he tells us how to live our lives with the least amount of sin possible. Or something along those lines.

But I (and many others) don't believe that the Bible is the word of God. So when you tell me I'm a sinner, I consider that to be YOU judging me for my actions, not some invisible man in the sky using you as his mouthpiece.

Very understandble. I dont expect anyone who doesnt believe the bible to believe or listen to what i say. And to that person I say may you find your own way. I think God is powerful enough to change anyone's heart. Again its not my role to try and 'talk' you into believing what i believe, but simply to let you know where i stand and maybe from my life I can be some sort of witness of God's love. Now thank God for forgiveness otherwise id be screwed. Im far from perfect and never claimed to be and have to remember everyday that fact. If I were to ever get haughty or self righteous in anyway that would be a sin against God! Not all Christian approach non-believers this way and probably why you are as jaded as you are, and understandably so. Just dont right us all off. We arent all bad, and some of us actually have a lot to offer just as you have a lot to offer me. I never write anyone off because God doesnt. Everyone has something to offer from their own unique experiences in life and I am open to that. Judgement is something I have had experience with in my past and so i am the last one to judge anyone else...Though we all judge to some degree. None of us is perfect.

I'm only jaded when it comes to the judgemental/irrational people I mentioned. You're obviously not like that.

People like you give me hope that religion isn't completely worthless.

well as long as all of keep an open mind and learn to listen to one another and not be so stubborn and unteachable, I think God will be glorified. good luck to you.

Not at all what I'm aiming for. I'm looking for a girl exactly like this one is... just wondering what the chances are of my lack of religion outweighing the fact that I'm pretty much exactly how someone would describe the stereotypical "good christian guy", minus the whole believing-in-god thing.

Yeah, in the bible God was really understanding when it came to sin. He never said it was his way or no way, ever., and when he did he surely didn't mean it. See, this is the new generation of religion that I cannot stand- it attempts to take away God's punch so to speak. Jesus said that he came to bring diversion, mother against the daughter, father against the son- God's word naturally creates gaps in between the right and the wrong, which is then construed as judgemental, when in reality a sinners sin judges for him. Yes, we are all sinners, and have fallen short of the glory of God, and if a man said he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him, all of these apply, but it does not give the true christian the right to attempt to strip God's word of what it was meant to be, and when this happens you end up with false christianity. A facsimile of christianity, but not christianity.


I see you are from College Station. You happen to know Matt?

well thats up to her man. If a religious girl is what you are looking for then I guess its just up to her. Ill be honest, you should be open with her I think to at least get the heartache over with...the longer you draw it out the worse it will be if she cant handle your atheism. But if she is that greatof a girl you may at least be able to keep a friendship. If you are really looking for a genuine friendship that will mean more to her anyway. Just keep it honest and up front and if nothing else she will respect you for it, and who knows, maybe you guys will get together. good luck



well definitely not going to get into an argument with you. Matt who?

Link to Matt's blog:www.mattnxtc.blogspot.com

What an incredible backhanded dig. I'm not even sure if you understand that you just insulted me (not that I mind). That's actually really funny.

Don't worry about it though...I hear what you were trying to say.



How sad that you think any interperetation of Christianity that differs from yours is "false". Anyways, you didn't really even read what JadeTiger said (pretty SOP for you). He very specifically said that we are all sinners (just in different ways), and then you for some unknown reason jumped in with the above argumentative post.

Man...you need to spend less time arguing here. It has obviously made you actively look for fights.

well that doesnt show his last name or really anything about him other than his poker results. It would be hard for me to pinpoint exactly what matt in CS it would be. I know a few and not aware of any blogs they have but I could know him. Its a smaller world than you think.



Hey I apologize if that came off insulting I honestly didnt mean it that way. I just meant we all (especially me!) needs to always keep an open mind, and not write people off. Thats all it wasnt directed at you it was more of a closing comment for both of us. I can see how it came off now though, after reading it again. Sorry about that.

No worries. It wasn't really that I thought you were directing it at me...ok, I'll just say what I found to be a little...whatever.

1. Saying sometimes we are all "unteachable". I think of being taught as a teacher/student relationship...as in one person knows the answers and the other does not. I think this is the main problem with religion...when someone blindly follows what they are "taught". In my mind what we would do is discussing ideas to try and come to some reasonable conclusions. Whether those conclusions are in line with Christianity, atheism, or some strange hybrid is inconsequential.

2. You basically say this is all to ensure that "God will be glorified". This is a strange thing to say to someone that may or may not believe in God (especially not in the same way as you). It makes me think that regardless of how much you might think you have an open mind, you're really just looking to teach instead of share.

I wonder if I'm making any sense. Anyways, I want it to be clear that I did understand and appreciate the message behind what you said.

Ok I understand more clearly what you mean now. Well I by no means meant to encompass you into my beliefs by saying I think God will be glorified, I said that more from my point of view than for you directly. maybe i shouldnt have said but I definitely wasnt supposed to encompass you, just that if I am always teachable (which I think is important for me personally) then I know God will be glorified for me. Sorry again if it came off the wrong way. I by no means meant to say that you needed to be teachable and I didnt. I can learn a lot from you and other atheists and only meant that by being teachable (both of us) we can learn from each other in open discussion or whatever. I hope thats more clear.

Vonteego,

I'm a Christian but I have some beliefs that are probably not mainstream and this is my opinion based upon my experience with other friends that have gone thru this.

On 2: Everybody is different and the only way you're going to find out is to have a frank discussion with Susan about this topic. For some Christians, it could be a dealbreaker - for others, it wouldn't be.

On 1: it sounds like you two have a good rapport already; obviously religion is a heavy topic but I'm sure you could work it into the conversation to find out where she is at if only to find out if it is a dealbreaker - at least you'll know.

Also, be aware that even if Susan is ok with this; her Christian friends might make things just a tad difficult. You could be seen as someone who is causing her to "fall away" from Christ. A thick skin is very helpful in these situations.

Good Luck and I hope that it works out for you

Thanks for the well wishes.

As for the thick skin... I've lost all concern for how others think of me. If she accepts me, then she'll know that I accept her and everything that goes with her, to include her friends... I can only control what I do, right?

And to clarify (although I'm not saying you're accusing me of this... clearly, you're not)... I have no desire to ever make her "fall away" from her beliefs. In fact, I think that making your own decisions is more important than agreeing with me. The connection the two of us seem to have made, in my eyes, transcends life beyond the bond. Her desire to maintain her independent beliefs only strengthens that bond.

Aithiest Don't Believe In ... God ... By Defenition ... So Your Frien'd Would Be CLASSIFI'ED As An ATHEIST ..

BUT THERE IS A GOD ... THE LORD OF HEAVEN AND ... OF ... THE EARTH ... AND HIS NAME IS JEHOVAH JERA ... MY ... PROVIDER ... & HE GO'ES BY ... MANY ... OTHER ... NAME'S THAT ... I ... DON'T KNOW ABOUT BUT ... THE POINT IS ... There Is Indesputable Evedence As Surely As ... You & I STAND HERE TODAY THAT GOD IS INDEED THE ... CREATOR ... OF ... HEAVEN AND OF ... THE EARTH ... EVEN ... IF ... IT ... GET'S ME ... BANN'ED ... AGAIN ... I WILL PROCLAIM ... THE LIVING GOD ... OF HEAVEN & ... F ... THE EARTTTH ...

TAKE CARE

Care to elaborate?

Yorke, I try to get my hair messy like your and it just doen't get there. How do you do it?

Exactly. I'll repeat for emphasis: this issue turns on the most-often misused verse in the Bible. Your entire life, repeat, your entire life is a series of judgements. For people to assert that Jesus was warning Christians away from judgement is ludicrous. The verse in question is a personal admonishment about making good judgements in your own life, NOT one about never looking outside yourself. Paraphrased: "those who throw stones ought not live in glass houses." Just for clarity, the entire Christian religion is about looking outside yourself. Jesus' life was an example of living outside yourself. He died on the cross for those outside himself. But I guess it makes a good club for anti-Christians to use to bash Christians with.

Oh, and the OP ... he KNOWS he's living a lie with this chick. His conscience drove him to post the question because he KNOWS he's living a lie. He's just looking to RATIONALIZE.

All perfectly NORMAL. Not nice, but normal.

Do you realize you're making absolutely no sense whatsoever? What lie is the OP living? What the hell are you talking about?



Oh...boy.



Not combing after premarital sex works for me.



Don't underestimate the power of her friends and family to make your life suck. I would ask her if they'll be cool with it.

Are you really serious? Really? Really really?

"The topic of religion has only popped up in passing once, with just a reference from the woman... we'll call her Susan... about going to church. Through the wonders of the internet, the man... let's call him Al... discovers that religion is in fact a very central part of Susan's life."

So he obviously danced around the topic if it came up and he didn't divulge his personal beliefs when she obviously did tell him about hers. FURTHER, instead of a direct conversation, he went to the INTERNET and "researched" hers, because he obviously heard enough that he had a reason to -- ie: he was concerned about it and wanted to learn more, but without her knowing.


"Al, however, not only isn't a follower of the same religion, but doesn't even believe in God. He's not your stereotypical atheist, though... his personal belief is that there is no God, but he has no issue at all with those who do believe, and no interest in convincing them to change their minds. Susan doesn't yet know of Al's beliefs, or lack thereof."

Wait, they discussed religion, and Al learned about Susan's beliefs, but Susan did NOT learn about Al's beliefs? How is that possible? Maybe she should have researched his beliefs on the INTERNET without him knowing.

"She's a very smart person... she doesn't seem at all judgemental to Al, but then again, he hasn't known her very long."

Meaning: he's worried that she is going to make a judgement about his hidden belief system. Which is precisely WHY he didn't tell her in the first place.

"1) If you're Al, do you bring it up right away, or do you wait and let it come out on its own naturally?"

Meaning: keep it on the down low until you get in her pants.

"2) If you're Susan (and I know the description is vague), is this a dealbreaker?"

Why not just phone her up right now and say, "You know, this issue has been on my mind. I'd like to talk about it with you"?

Answer: because he KNOWS the answer. "Al" is trying to find "outs" in this hand.

And as I said in my original post, THAT'S FINE. "Susan" is an adult and can take care of her own business. The thing I don't like about "Al's" question is that he knows all this.

When you first replied in this thread, I thought you were just bitter. Clearly, you're stupid too.

First, I think I made it pretty clear originally that she mentioned she was going to church, and no further discussion even remotely related to religion has taken place. There was no dancing around of the issue... many people go to church, and I'd say the majority of them don't keep religion as a central aspect of their lives. There was no "obvious" statement of her beliefs as you believe. This super-secret research that you claim I've done came from a place that any of you could go if you simply know someone's name... it's a friggin Myspace profile full of bible quotes and other religious references. In fact, I haven't even seen her since happened, because she's been out of town. So that clears up about 75% of your post... no religious discussion ever took place, no religious discussion was avoided, no beliefs were hidden.

Next, you say I'm trying to keep my beliefs quiet until I get into her pants... if you'll notice, just a few posts above yours, I responded to a question about the same thing and said that I'm not just trying to get her in bed.

And finally, the reason I asked the question is because i DON'T know how she'll respond. Fortunately, all christians aren't as close-minded as you, so I know that there's a possibility that what she thinks of me and how I treat her is more important than my religion.

Blah blah blah blah ... JUST ASK HER dipshit. Just have a ****ing conversation with her. Don't bring your **** to the internet and hash it over with scores of anonymous people when your mind is already made up and you could just as well talk to her.

Good grief -- I'm close-minded? I was the FIRST one with the brilliant idea of JUST TALKING TO HER about it. Seems open minded to me. I mean, really, if the last thing you feel compelled to do is talk to a woman who could be special about 'important issues like this, then stop wasting our time. And hers. I bet she'd like to talk to you about it. You ought to bring it up to her. I had NO IDEA that would be such a radical thought. COMMUNICATION? WHO IN THE UNIVERSE THINKS THAT **** WORKS?

And talk about bitter and stupid. Who asks a question, pretends to be open minded, then rails on someone they so obviously disagree with from the start?

Setting up straw men to continually bash people who simply disagree with you. What a piece of garbage. Open-minded? You're a toad.

Did I say something bad about your suggestion to talk to her? Of course not. I was referring to your repetitive and horribly incorrect assumptions; assumptions you repeated even with me having already stated they weren't correct.

Well, there's always this blast: "When you first replied in this thread, I thought you were just bitter. Clearly, you're stupid too."

**** you. I bet you STILL haven't talked to her about it. That's all.

"You're a moron."
Just look at the way "you people" treat anyone who you perceive as answering from a Christian perspective. It's shameful and immature.

"I told him to be honest when the topic comes up."
The topic DID come up. He dodged.
How do you get to the point of really liking someone without basic conversation?

You like ice cream?
I love ice cream!

You like movies?
I love movies!

You read books?
I love books!

You like hiking?
I love hiking!

I go to church?
< crickets >

"The bible is very clear that GOD is the only one that has the right to judge us."
A Christian's ENTIRE LIFE IS BASED ON MAKING JUDGEMENTS. That was my point. Ultimately, in the Christian faith, God is the final judge.

"My point was . . . If she is a true Christian she will not judge him based on the fact that he doesn't believe in GOD."
That's just an absolute non sequitur from the Christian POV.

"You always like to twist things people say and argue for no reason so I won't waste my time with you."
I don't recall running into you before. If you feel unarmed, then don't argue with me.

"OP . . . Good Luck . . . I hope it works out well."
What would "working out well" entail here -- really? They develop a relationship, they marry, they have three kids, and then the father vehemently objects to sending the kids to Sunday School, the mother argues that it's part of her traditions of faith, the father defends his position by saying he just doesn't believe, never has (in spite of being married by a minister, in a church, no less, just to go along), the argument spins out of control, there's a divorce and then three kids without a father in the home?

It's fine if the OP wants to have a relationship with a woman who believes the same things he does. In the end, this chasm in belief will result in pain for more than the OP and this girl. That's the way life is.

I wanted to catch up with this comment.

You've zeroed in on the primary problem Christianity has -- unqualified teachers. Most, if not all, people are initially exposed to Christianity in Sunday School, where it's taught by people who don't have any sophisticated understanding of their own faith.

eg: "Don't judge others because Jesus told you not to. Now glue the cotton ball on the lamb because your parents are picking you up in 3 minutes."

They're hurried, ill-equipped, and can't answer the questions of children, so they take authoritarian positions instead engaging in a scholarly search for the truth. It's not the way (or the time, frankly) to teach a faith. But it's the reason the "church lady" is such a successful character ... people identify with it. In my church, we have about a dozen church ladies and about 450 christians who would do much better in explaining their faith to you.

And I will assert again that the verse "judge not ... " is entirely misinterpreted.

From the beginning, God granted man "free will" (the power to make judgements) in life. Adam and Eve exercised that power to commit the original sin. They used judgement (free will / poor judgement) to separate themselves from God, bought pain and suffering to themselves and (according to the old testament), could only close the gap between themselves and God again through sacrifice. New Testament ... enter Jesus and the ultimate sacrifice to bring man back to God. You know the story well enough and understand the concepts. Back to the question of judgement.

What Jesus is saying is that man can go ahead and be judgemental, but that he should be very, very wary of investing in those judgements because they are the judgements of sinners. Man and judgement ... not such a great history in the Bible.

Anyway, the verse is a warning that judgements are fraught with dangers and traps. One such trap is Christians being called hypocritcial for being judgemental of atheists (when they are themselves sinners), instead of reaching out to them with the blessings of faith. Another is the consequences of judgement: separation from God. Another is making wrong judgements. Another is that man will appear before God for his final judgement.

Thus: "Judge not LEST YE BE JUDGED."

MtDes..

I'm interested on your thoughts on a couple who, while both Christian, are members of very different denominations, say Catholic guy/baptist girl, or Lutheran girl/Pentecostal guy, etc. You would likely share many of the same tenents, but prayers, services, etc. would be different.

The point I'm trying to get to is that if Vonteego holds the same morals and ethics as this girl...he just doesn't get them from the same place she does...maybe it can work.

You can play 2-5 and make it work sometimes. Doesn't mean it's a solid starting hand.

wow is it just me or are these replies an UNGODLY length?


(no pun intended...ok maybe it was intended )

. . . that was pretty funny!