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Full Version: When Tptk Turns Into 2nd Pair
FCP Poker Forum > Poker Strategy Forum > No Limit Texas Hold'em Cash Games
iggymcfly
I've been playing pretty aggressive; my opponent, not so much, but I don't have a really good read on him.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

Hero ($253.80)
BB ($829.20)
UTG ($504.10)
MP ($949.72)
Button ($197.90)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A icon_suit_diamond.gif , Q icon_suit_diamond.gif . Hero posts a blind of $2.
2 folds, Button calls $4, Hero raises to $20, 1 fold, Button calls $16.

Flop: ($44) 2 icon_suit_spade.gif , 7 icon_suit_spade.gif , Q icon_suit_heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $30, Button calls $30.

Turn: ($104) K icon_suit_club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $54.25, Hero is all-in.


Thoughts on this line? Anyone have a better one?
NoSup4U
I find that the more aggressive I am, the more likely players will call me on a Q high flop with AK. So I would be wary in that spot.

Mark
PimpRock
He has effectively bet half the pot which suggests to me he doesnt want to kill the action. I dunno man, tough spot. I think I w2ould go with a bet fold on the turn as his range of hands could be pretty huge here including KQ, 77 and 22, all of which have you crushed to dead.

Obviously you got a better read on the dude tho so maybe know something I dont.
Scott3705
QUOTE (iggymcfly @ Tuesday, July 4th, 2006, 6:38 PM) *
but I don't have a really good read on him.


this is gonna be what I base my response on...

If you've been really aggressive and keeping people passive in shed game, it probably means most hands aren't getting past the flop and people are tryingto take a stand against you pre-flop and some times on the flop when they have a better idea where they are. That being said, it's kinda hard for him to make this move w/ a flush draw or an underpair as I think both of these hands would have tested you on the flop. AK is a likely hand here as well as some sort of weird 2 pair and a set. Because I'm sorta lost w/ the bet, I may call and possibly fold the river. I may just fold too.
iggymcfly
Notice how short-stacked the button is. If we were deep-stacked, I'd probably be looking to get to showdown cheaply, but as is, I figured that I'm going to have to pay off a king anyway, and against a queen, I'm going to have a hard time getting paid anyway, so I might as well let a flush draw or a lower pair semi-bluff, and then push at him.

This thinking might be flawed though. Maybe I should have just bet $50 to let him know the king didn't hit me, and then pushed the river? Maybe bet $50 on the turn, and then $60 on the river? I really don't see myself folding this hand at any point with the stacks as they are though.

Oh, one more thing. I don't think button's limping here with AK. I wasn't paying close enough attention to get a real specific read, but he seemed to be playing pretty straightforward preflop, and I can't imagine him failing to raise that. If the king hit him, it either made two pair or was part of a flush draw on the flop.
Scott3705
QUOTE (iggymcfly @ Wednesday, July 5th, 2006, 8:24 AM) *
Notice how short-stacked the button is. If we were deep-stacked, I'd probably be looking to get to showdown cheaply, but as is, I figured that I'm going to have to pay off a king anyway, and against a queen, I'm going to have a hard time getting paid anyway, so I might as well let a flush draw or a lower pair semi-bluff, and then push at him.

This thinking might be flawed though. Maybe I should have just bet $50 to let him know the king didn't hit me, and then pushed the river? Maybe bet $50 on the turn, and then $60 on the river? I really don't see myself folding this hand at any point with the stacks as they are though.


Disregard my first post... I hadn't noticed you had checked the turn. I thought he just randomly woke up and led into you.

I'm kinda iffy w/ the check. I undestand your intention, but how often do you think he checks w/ hands that may have called a bet?
FOOSE1
This is a toughy. I don't think I would have checked the turn though. To me . . . you showed weakness. If I were short stacked and someone checks into me when an overcard (or scare card hit) I would go all-in immediately.

You bet the flop with TPTK - he calls a good portion of his stack. He had to either have a piece of it or a draw, or possibly JJ or something like that. You then check the overcard on the turn which usually means you didn't like that card very much. Easy play by him . . . he put the tought decision back on you. I think I would have bet the turn to see how he reacts. Then if he pushes you can decide from there.
erac22
Wow, I see the general consensus is fold, and that surprises me. Let's do the math, 20 dollar raise preflop, 30 dollar flop raise, 54 dollar bet on the turn, so you have to call 54 bucks off to win 150, or about 3 to 1. The game is 5 handed (ie players, especially dizzonks, will get more aggressive and push more marginal hands. Finally, being that shortstacked in a 2/4 nl game screams of donkishness to me. A call here is profitable if we win 25 percent of the time. I think he could have Q10, QJ, maybe even a draw of some sort. He could have some weird two pair, which you're drawing live against. I don't see how you're laying this down. To those who say it's AK, you don't think he'd reraise preflop with AK in a shorthanded game? KQ seems more likely, but I think you're pot odds are too good to fold. I'm certainly not laying down AQ in this spot.
Scott3705
QUOTE (erac22 @ Wednesday, July 5th, 2006, 11:52 AM) *
Wow, I see the general consensus is fold, and that surprises me. Let's do the math, 20 dollar raise preflop, 30 dollar flop raise, 54 dollar bet on the turn, so you have to call 54 bucks off to win 150, or about 3 to 1. The game is 5 handed (ie players, especially dizzonks, will get more aggressive and push more marginal hands. Finally, being that shortstacked in a 2/4 nl game screams of donkishness to me. A call here is profitable if we win 25 percent of the time. I think he could have Q10, QJ, maybe even a draw of some sort. He could have some weird two pair, which you're drawing live against. I don't see how you're laying this down. To those who say it's AK, you don't think he'd reraise preflop with AK in a shorthanded game? KQ seems more likely, but I think you're pot odds are too good to fold. I'm certainly not laying down AQ in this spot.

I'm not advocating a fold as played... I was saying fold is pretty close if he had been led into. I wanted to point out tho that your idea of 3:1 is flawed considering this action's on the turn and most hands we are behind will be charging us again.
erac22
QUOTE (Scott3705 @ Wednesday, July 5th, 2006, 12:08 PM) *
I'm not advocating a fold as played... I was saying fold is pretty close if he had been led into. I wanted to point out tho that your idea of 3:1 is flawed considering this action's on the turn and most hands we are behind will be charging us again.


Just making sure we're on the same page. If hero checks and villain bets 50, with another 200 behind him, I'm laying this down nearly every time. The reason I'm nearly auto-calling here is because he's all in, and we see a showdown for the half pot bet on the turn. I think that's what you're saying too???
Scott3705
QUOTE (erac22 @ Wednesday, July 5th, 2006, 12:32 PM) *
Just making sure we're on the same page. If hero checks and villain bets 50, with another 200 behind him, I'm laying this down nearly every time. The reason I'm nearly auto-calling here is because he's all in, and we see a showdown for the half pot bet on the turn. I think that's what you're saying too???

ah, I see, you're (or maybe I) reading the hand wrong. I think the all in is a push by hero for the button's last ~$100. button has $100 behind him after his bet.
erac22
QUOTE (Scott3705 @ Wednesday, July 5th, 2006, 12:40 PM) *
ah, I see, you're (or maybe I) reading the hand wrong. I think the all in is a push by hero for the button's last ~$100. button has $100 behind him after his bet.


Ohhhhhhhhh, okay, I'm a tard. So the button has 100 behind him after the 54.25 dollar bet into the 100 dollar pot. Okay, yeah, this is a tough one, you're obviously not calling here, as that basically committs you for the last hundred. I'm fine with a push or a fold here. I think it depends on how donkish you think the villain is.

***okay, now that I know what's going on, i hate the check on the turn. I think that checking is essentially condeding the hand, and therefore you have to fold here. I like a 50-60 dollar bet here, probably folding to a reraise. If he just calls I think we shove on the river.
Scott3705
QUOTE (erac22 @ Wednesday, July 5th, 2006, 12:48 PM) *
Ohhhhhhhhh, okay, I'm a tard. So the button has 100 behind him after the 54.25 dollar bet into the 100 dollar pot. Okay, yeah, this is a tough one, you're obviously not calling here, as that basically committs you for the last hundred. I'm fine with a push or a fold here. I think it depends on how donkish you think the villain is.

***okay, now that I know what's going on, i hate the check on the turn. I think that checking is essentially condeding the hand, and therefore you have to fold here. I like a 50-60 dollar bet here, probably folding to a reraise. If he just calls I think we shove on the river.

I actually think the check is a way to manipulate a situation in which you're hand is likely to be the best if it gets all in. I'm just iffy about the check since we can't be positive that he bets here.
iggymcfly
QUOTE (erac22 @ Wednesday, July 5th, 2006, 12:48 PM) *
***okay, now that I know what's going on, i hate the check on the turn. I think that checking is essentially condeding the hand, and therefore you have to fold here. I like a 50-60 dollar bet here, probably folding to a reraise. If he just calls I think we shove on the river.


I'm not conceding the hand. I'm expressing weakness with the intent of getting more action from weak hands and pricing out draws. I've been CBing HU about 95% of the time, so if I show weakness on the turn, I can't imagine that the villian will check behind if he has something like a flush draw.

The only thing that I think's questionable about the play is that I might get less action against a weak queen that would call me down if I just bet right out at the pot. Do you think villian lays down a queen to the turn check-raise getting 3:1 on his call?
NoSup4U
QUOTE (iggymcfly @ Wednesday, July 5th, 2006, 3:47 PM) *
Do you think villian lays down a queen to the turn check-raise getting 3:1 on his call?


I would expect that he would fold based on the way you described him, and the power of the move you just put on him.

Mark
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