Brand new live 2/5 NL game at Trop.

This is the second hand at the table which is currently 6 handed. The first hand was folded around and the blinds chopped.

Hero (CO): $500
Button: $400
SB: $400

Dealt to Hero: A 5
Folds to Hero, Hero raises to $15, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds

POT: $50
FLOP:
5 7 K
SB checks, Hero bets $30, Button calls $30, SB calls $30

POT: $140
TURN:
A
SB checks, Hero bets $40, Button calls $40, SB raises to $140... action to hero...

No reads prior to hand obviously. Button seems upset by the SB raise. SB is younger looking kid wearing full tilt garb but I have no solid read of strength or weakness and no idea what kind of hands he would c/r on the turn with.

It's 2/5 in AC. Villian's range is 77 to 68 and a lot of junk.

W/o a real good read, I'd like to just call in his spot and try to see what he thinks of it.

I'm likely willing to call a pretty large bet on the river too. hopefully a king will come. cause I tihnkn this is A7 if you're behind.

looks like middle set.

AK playing it safe then pushing on your turn raise with 2 clubs?

i fold

So u r ok with betting $40 into a a $140 pot when we actually make a hand on the turn when we bet $30 on the flop

I would bet at least $90 on the turn and see what action ensues. Ur really screaming weakness so this can easily be a hand way weaker than urs.

This also makes a lot of sense, i didnt read the "kid wearing full tilt gear" until now, and i think its possible this guy is trying to buy right now with a weak bet and weak call

I didn't even notice that when I read it. yeah, I hate making decisions more difficult for me than they have to be.

$40 bet was probably a mistake.

Okay so I decided that I wasn't going to fold. My next decision was whether to push on the turn or just call.

I figured just calling on both the turn and river was the best option if I planned on continuing the hand. I am going to pay off A7 or 77 either way but I get him to bet into me with hands that are worse than mine. If he checked the river I planned on making a decent sized bet.

In the actual hand, I called the $100 raise.

POT:$360
RIVER: J

SB bets $175... if I am just calling the turn I pretty much have to call any river bet correct?

Any arguments for pushing the turn?

If your talking about pushing after the reraise then I would have to say that I'm more inclined to fold but pushing is better than smooth calling the reraise.

If your talking about open pushing the turn rather then betting $40, I'd say this line is better than weak betting/calling the reraise and river.

Krup is on fire this thread.

Pushing the turn is way better than smooth calling because we are forcing the SB to have a real hand. (if this was a bluff on his part)
if we smooth call and sb leads out the river, are you gonna fold? call? how much will small blind lead out for that we wouldnt call?

we've already invested 185 now, 215 more and sb is all in.

the turn should really be fold or push.

How is pushing this better than call/calling? I guess we're hoping he has k7 or 57? If we're ahead he's draw to 3 outs.. maybe 4... Some times 8. Sometimes dead at 2/5. Calling ties us to the pot and then we call the river. What does pushing accomplish if we're willing to call the river?

Try to use all the factors:

what makes sense to call a raise from SB, 5,7? K, 7? maybe if they're suited and this kid is a total donk.

A,7? perhaps,
AK, maybe he is scared playing live and wont raise?

7,7?

junk? maybe its a semi bluff? perhaps he opened up a club draw?

Like i said before, pushing or folding, just calling is like standing in the middle of a busy street, it doesnt make sense.
a push puts him on a call for all his chips, so either he has a strong hand, or doesnt have anything at all.
his A,7 would look really crappy if we pushed cuz then he starts thinking, maybe we have AK, we raised preflop, we bet the K high flop, we re-raised all in on the Ace turn.

call shouldnt be considered unless we plan to river a 5.

I figure the button is drawing. He's upset that his good price has gone to crap. If we smooth call, the button calls also and possibly hits.

As Dave stated we don't wanna price in the button for sure this would definitely hurt our odds on winning the pot. I wanna put Mr. Full Tilt Gear to the test now. Our weak bet smells of a hand like KQ where the A just scares us.

I am not willing to call the river or turn reraise for that matter as played

The reason I thought just calling the turn was better than pushing the turn is because I planned on calling the river no matter what. So either way I am paying off a hand that has me beat but if he has a hand like a draw or just an ace or if he is just trying to represent the ace he can't call me on the turn but he can push it all in on the river.

Also, I was quite sure the button wasn't going to call if I just smooth called. He was upset and was already about to muck his cards.

As Scott has said earlier the SB's hand range is very wide here especially given my weak bet on the turn.

The reason I decided to make the call on the turn was actually based on the way the hand played out given my weak bet. I thought it was very likely that he had put me on just a K and he thought he could take the pot down with a raise. I was also well aware that he could simply have a better hand than mine and I gave myself too much to think about by making such a small bet. On the turn I am getting laid 3:1 so I figured there was a decent enough chance that I was ahead to make the call.

What I am saying is that pushing here instead of Calling w/ intention to call the river as well is just crossing your fingers and hoping he didn't pick up a monster. By call/calling you win more when you're ahead and lose the same when you're behind. I think you need a very draw heavy board to ever be in the position to Push or fold in a NL cash game on the turn HU.

That being said, regarding pervious post I had forgotten about the button which makes pushing alright. Especially if he looks like he's drawing and is over 30. It's never a draw at this 2/5 game if he's in his 20's. (HU, I still think pushing is the worst of three options)



That's partly my bias. HU against the SB I am more the willing to because i know the game and it's usually full of a ton of Lagtards. (I full expect a hand like 56 to fire at the river)

I still only like the raise to charge button. SB is calling every time w/ a better hand... so it's not really a test.

How confident are you that SB always calls with A7 here?

Because if A7 sometimes folds to a turn push, it might make up for the times we push and fold 57 or a draw/air that bluffs when the river bricks. I'm not including a dry ace here in terms of lost value since I really feel like it would check behind on the river if we call the turn.

At that price 90% sure. At that game 99% sure. People in hero's position run this line too often w/ marginal hands for him to fold.

Results from actual hand: (Not that they matter much)

As I said before I called the raise on the turn.

On the river he bet $175 and I called as well.

SB shows 6 9 and calls me a donkey.

I say "I am very bad player, don't bluff a bad player".

He told me later that he thought I just had a King and would most likely lay down to his raise. The Button folded K5.

That's the 2/5 trop game I know!!!!

so basically the push on the turn wins us the pot. We were correct to assume thats a good time to get the money in vs a player trying to push around our weak bet with a bluff, or semi bluff.

i cant say that the call/river call was a good play, u had no idea where you wer ein the hand, so it basically looks like you closed your eyes and prayed.

No offence.

Isn't that what pushing the turn is?

No, havent we all gone over this?

Pushing the turn is because we've put him on several factors that a push will create a fold and we will win the pot.

1 - he has weak hand like a King, spiked an A, or 2 weak pair.

2- he using our weak bet against us, and might have made a semi bluff on us on the turn, in which case a push, would set him back in his seat.

or we could hope we're ahead., call the turn bet, pray he doesnt have a semi bluff that actually hits., or a pair of Kings, that then trip up on the river etc.... and screw us.

now do u see where krup and myself were goin?

I understand the drawing part.

1. Not sure what you mean w/ the king, spike An A, or 2 weak pair.

My feeling is that this guy is going to bet the river w/ his busted draw, his weak king or his weaker 2 pair on the river or his air.

so yeah, we hope he doesn't complete his draw and caught him for his entire stack. Actually doing it out call/call is actually $22 more in positive EV than pushing the turn assuming he has on average 20% equity. (I realize he had more than that, but he's pretty close to needing to call a push w/ the draw he actually had anyway).
Understanding he's not always drawing to str8/flushes, and since you (not Krup) have removed the fold, letting him bet other hands that are drawing to 2-3 outs is optimal.

I, like Krup, would consider folding the turn if I didn't know this game.

So, I am still convinced that Pushing this turn is crossing your fingers and hoping that you haven't found your way into a trap instead of trying to manipulate a situation that gives you the highest probability that, get your chips and his in the middle of the pot w/ the best hand.

Edit: Uhh, I just noticed u said I took out the fold?? No, i said its push or fold. No call,


See, there lies a problem. You have now tried to make your play based on a feeling of what the player might do.

Thats pretty much like saying "well i call cuz i knew it would hit"

Villain called, called, then check raised. If the check raise gets called, and villain holds crap, what makes you think he is going to lead out again?
and can we afford to bet the river again with top and bottom?
Hero still hasnt put him on a good range of hands yet so how could he?




No, you're not following me, You're judging my posts based on your information.

I'm pushing because i've put him on a range of hands that i feel i will push him off
I'm confident i'm winning this pot on the turn.

i dont want to see the river, and thats why i'm playing cash games in the 1st place

It's nothing like that. How do you equate the two?

I know the game and know that most are going to bet this river w/ a draw. Even if I didn't know the game players that pick up these draws and try some extravagent turn C/R bluff are going to bet these rivers most of the time.



Basically just judging it on general play. Like I said, villian is bluffing this river most of the time if he's really bluffing this turn and we don't have to do any betting



Why don't you wanna see a river in a cash game? Especially if you have the chance to get more dead money betting into you? That seems more of a tournament concept.

Basically getting to everything, it seems like you want to charge/fold a draw and you also want to charge/fold hands that have 2-3 outs against you while hoping to get called by k7 and 57 and hoping that villian doesn't have A7 77.

What I am saying is, we are against a range of hands that we have no idea really where we are at. (which undoubtedly makes pushing a push and pray type play). some hands we're ahead of, some behind, some way ahead. Those that we are ahead of that can call a push are small and half of them are going to have us crushed. We are also against a player that will usually be tthe river. (Again, I may be biased by knowing the game, but if this is a bluff, I would expect this type of turn line to bring a river bluff as well even at 2/4, 1/2 or .5/1 online). So I would think it wouldn't be too hard to undestand how the call, call line gets more money in the pot when you're ahead and obviously the same money in the pot when you're behind. You're worst case scenario if you're ahead is what we found and it's still better to call/call regardless of the river.

basically you dont mind letting villain catch up?
just calling this turn and expectig him to lead out the river wether he hits or not?
The only logic here is hoping that villian does infact lead out with a busted draw.
If we get all our money in on the turn,or call , then river call we
A - win with no showdown when villain folds.
B - we go to showdown and win when villains busted draw doesnt hit.
C - villain calls we get sucked out.
D - we call, villain catches and leads out, we call. we lose
E - river bricks and villain bets, we call win less than if we had them all in on turn.
F - we call turn, villain checks, we check?? (or would we bet? in your view)
so we win same amount as turn wether we pushed andgot a fold.

Only thing i'm preaching is the guaranteed money when we get a fold, the guaranteed money when we get called and brick hits.

Your version by calling turn is No added money to pot for river, and possibilty that villain catches without risking his stack.

I don't think those are equivalent.

He might not, but we do have position. I was in the raise camp, but because of the button. It turns out we have a read that tells us he's folding.

1. If the SB holds crap and doesn't bluff the river, calling and raising have the same result.
   
2. If he holds crap and will bluff the river, calling is better.
   
3. If he holds what he thinks is the winner but isn't (e.g., AK Edit: a strong ace but not two pair), then calling is probably better.
   
4. If he holds a good draw, then a raise is better, because we might get a call on the turn when we're ahead, or we win the pot and steal his (considerable) equity.
   
5. If he has a monster, we lose a bunch either way.

So in my mind it's a question of the relative likelihood of cases 2 and 3 versus 4.


Why not? If he checks to us on the river, I think a value bet is in order.

?

I'm trying to maximize my expectation. Sometimes seeing the river makes us money.

I agree with what Scott has said throughout most of this thread which is why I played it that way.



Although I wasn't positive where I was in the hand, I think if I pushed on the turn it would be much more like closing my eyes and praying.

I like the way David broke down the hand.

I think the call/call line is better simply because I'll make more money on avg. on the times when he misses a draw and bets the river or on the times when he has a hand that he'd bet the river with but wouldn't call an all-in on the turn with.

Anyway, I thought this was an interesting hand and appreciate the input from all parties.

With a c-c line, we also potentially lose less money against a hand we're crushed by. It snap calls a turn push, but may elect to value bet for less than that if all the money's not in by the river. Folding to the turn raise is not bad, but if we're continuing, we're paying off here no matter what - but our payoff is guaranteed to be the max if we push the turn.

This also means that our profit is not guaranteed to be the max if villain holds weaker two pair or a draw, but the draw likely doesn't continue against a turn push (bad price). A weaker two pair might call, but against that board, k7/57 isn't going to look too hot once the ace drops on the turn. Added to this, the chances that villain holds a weaker two pair as opposed to a set/better two pair are much less, as noted by Royal far earlier in the thread.

lol @ folding turn.

don't do that.

it looks to me he is raising a weak bet hoping you'll lay down...granted you don't have a solid read..this is six max...i'd either call turn and call "most" rivers, or push it in there.

im personally willing to drop buy ins with 2 pairs playing six max, as long as they aren't bottom two (turn action, flop action i'll get it all in nearly everytime w bottom two).

If you aren't..dont play 6 max.

i be back in town tomorrow...late

- Jordan

i do agree w/ ur 6-max analysis

but ur willing to call "most" rivers so thus if villian pushes river you fold????

this is why i have come to the conclusion
pushing turn > folding turn > calling turn + river (although its really close between the first two i'd say 50/50 without reads)

Welcome back, sweetie.

No offence but you guys opting to call turn, then call most river bets really shoulnt be playing NL.


and Nicoson, what makes you think we're going to extract money on the river if he checks to us that we couldnt have extracted on the turn with a push?

with roughly 200 left in his stack villain is either prepared to call a turn push, or push the river if we call, or call our bet on the river if he checks it. But he could also FOLD.
and I'd much rather create his fold on the turn than hope i'm still ahead on the river.
The best situation hand we're ahead for a call turn, call river, is two weaker pair or a flush draw.
and I'm willing to lay 3:1 that he would invest all his chips on the turn with 2 pair, and possibly a draw.

Your only hope by calling calling, is that you pray its a bluff and he'll bluff at it again if he bricks.

yea stack sizes are important to note..i just skimmed the thread when I first read it cause I was in the Mountains of colorado and had about 2 minutes to be on the net.

i'd personally push the turn myself almost everytime here, but I don't hate calling and calling river bets, although I'd rather take that line if I had a read on duder and thought he'd continuate on a bluff...otherwise, i'd rather get it all in on the turn..

like you said...we kind of play a guessing game on the river sometimes when we just call the turn...however, since we had no read in this situation I'm fine with a push on the turn or a call/call..but I'd rather see a push first simply because we don't know villian enough.

Then when he folds we do something sick and show a 5.

- Jordan

None of us just fell off the fruit truck.

I'm not entirely sure which comment you're referring to here, because I expect the villain to bet the river. If we flat call the turn, our action is consistent with a hand that can't beat a pair of aces. So a value bet with a pair of aces seems reasonable. Or a bluff.

I think there's a real possibility that he has a real hand that he'd value bet on the river but we still beat.

Didn't check all weekend, but decided that I should revisit this thread. Being tho that a few people got into why a call call can be better in this scenario, and that royal offered nothing after my last post I'll probably move on.

I will give the one argument for a push.... we keep people passive and unwilling to make moves on us. This is may have more value in future hands than any immediate value between call,calling and pushing. In a lot of cases in I push this just for that reason. Knowing this game, tight weak can really be used to your advantage here so in this game particularly I wouldn't try to be the one pushing the action.