i assume you are aware this is contradicted about 500 times in the bible.

the lord can giveth?

I was watching Dateline last night and saw Mel Brooks say something very interesting.

He said that to debate about Hitler is useless and makes you just as bad as him, because it lends credibility to his ideas.

The only way to bring his ridiculous ideas down is to mock them (and him) mercilessly.

Food for thought.

I don't know where that quote is from, but Weishan would be incorrect. It really would depend who you are talking about, and I would be careful how I said it. God says when it comes to sinners, time and chance happens, meaning that he doesn't even pay attention, whatever happens, happens. When it comes to a christian he watches over them, so if a CHRISTIAN were to come down with cancer, or some sort of illness then it was the will of God in that he did not step in and stop it- in my experience, dealing with christians who have dealt with this type of thing they always learn great lessons by dealing with these types of life tragedies, and sometimes we get so comfortable that it takes something not so good to happen to help us to see things that we could be better in, and more christlike.

Dont get your point.

As to God giving cancer, well, if you believer everything happens for a reason, then maybe he does. To understand his logic, would be impossible however.

nah he's easy to understand - he likes to play sadistic games with human lives apparently.

Well actually think this one out. If we assume something or someone, could create the universe, make everything so precise, then we assume that this something has a fairly high intelligence. If you want it in poker terms, think of a person who has just started playing poker (humans) trying to figure out why daniel re raised 23os (God).

so god likes to bluff when he senses weakness?

Now you're catchin on. Man am I good with analogies or what.

your analogy doesn't work because there is a logical reason for re-raising that an intelligent beginner who studied poker for a few minutes could discern.

if you are saying "god's ways" appear to be nonsense to us because we are too dumb to understand him, then how would anyone ever hope to differentiate between a real god and a made up one?

Yeah.
Is it possible that we're all too stupid to discern god's ultimately all-good plan? Sure.
But is it worthwhile/logical to believe in something which we aren't and never will be able to comprehend?
And, of course, where's the proof of this? The argument for it seems a lot like the "If there were an invisible rabbit in that chair, then the chair would appear empty. The chair appears empty, therefore there's an invisible rabbit in it" logic.

well said.

Crow, your question confuses me. Can you restate it plz?

ok. if the only way to believe in god is to accept the apparently nonsensical through faith, what's the difference between god and the easter bunny?

At some point it would have to make sense to you. If it doesn't, move on and hope for the best- it takes all types to make this world and some- most- will never be able to be as God would have them to be because of the stumbling blocks they create for themselves, in there own minds.

While it's true that we wuoldn't be able to understand what god is thinking, it is ridiculous to try to use that idea as a defense to all the common holes found modern theology. Like I stated in another thread, this just sets the idea of religion up in such a way that it is impossible to argue agianst it, without getting some dumb reply like "It's all in gods master plan".

The whole notion of an all-knowing being playing 'tricks' on us is absurd. Remember, this is supposed to be a perfect being. Unlike humans, god has no flaws. If he did create us he would care for us. He would make his presence known. We would live in a peaceful and harmonious world. All of the mysterious of the universe would be known. he would not allow all the misdirection, contradiction, and confusion present in religion. We wouldn't have a science vs religion debate, because it religion would be logical.

Instead, we get this idea of a vengeful god, who never shows up, and beats the **** out of us if we disobey him. Sounds like a low life peice of **** to me. Certainly not a being of supreme intelligence. C'mon. Unless god is the retarded infant of two other omnipotent beings, he simply makes no sense...Wait! But he knows that I know that he knows........

You are trying to blame God for the actions of humans- we live in a less harmonious world because of what sin does- the love of money for starters. Whet would be different- politically and personally- if we all put less of a premium on becoming as rich as possible? If you just took away that, and EVERYBODY did it, think what a better world it would be, in theory. Obviously, we would all have to buy in but..no war, no limits on trade, fair wages, balance. We live in a world so driven and controlled by money hungry insatiable corporations that if you just eliminated that one lust, you would change the world.


In your case it would just be best to just ignore the idea of a God, because you are the type of person that will give God credit for all of the bad, but when the good is shown to you, spoken of to you, you deny him. You are for lack of better words, bitter. God could help you with that but you won't let him.

So god created us, knowing we would be flawed (which I'm not arguing against), and then expects us to be perfect? Give me a break Lois. Anyway, you aren't even responding to my arguement. The point I'm making is that an all knowing creator of the universe, who has humans no a pedastool (we get into heaven right?)simply wouldn't set things up this way. I am not blaming him for the actions of humans, because I don't believe such a being would act the way described in the bible. But you have to miss my point entirely, and try to argue agianst an arbitrary point that I never even made. Are you in that much denial?

And to say that I should just ignore the idea of god is silly. It's in the back of my mind, but the god outlined in the bible almost certainly doesn't exist. Why do you keep saying that people like me give god credit for all the bad, but deny him when I see the good? I have never said anything remotely close to that. I DON'T GIVE GOD CREDIT FOR ANYTHING. So you can save your ridiculous preacher rhetoric for some poor soul that was born without a brain. To say I am bitter is even more absurd. Just because I don't follow your beliefs, I'm bitter?

Holy cancer!

You are assuming that you know what is best- which is a mistake, in that you have to give up, to a certain extent what YOU believe to be best in order to serve God.

As far as assumeing your bitter? Geez, do you even read your posts? What would you call your attitude? Jovial? As far as giving God credit for bad and not good or even seeing the potential for good... christians make that mistake, you don't need to be an unbeliever for that.

But only if that said god exists...



It's the internet. It's easy to misinterpret someone's attitude when you can't hear their voice or see their face.



Ok. But my point was that most nonbelievers don't give god credit for bad or good because they simply don't believe in him. They take things more in stride, in a that's life sort of way, without trying to identify hidden meanings.