$1/2 NL - live - 10-handed.

EP raises to $5. (a little tight, sometimes passive, sometimes not)...stack, ~$150

MP calls (laggy type)....~$300

CO calls (usually taggy)....~$125 - he has A5o.

Blinds call.....pot $25.

Flop Ah Jh Ac

checks to MP, he bets $10...CO calls, blinds fold, EP calls...pot $55.


Turn Js

Check, MP bets $10, CO pauses, calls, EP calls....pot $85.

River Ks.


Check, MP bets $15....


Do you make a value raise here? Or are you only called by a hand that beats you or ties you, making a raise pointless? Do you call and hope EP calls with a jack or other non-ace hand?


In this particular hand the CO called and though he was rebuked, I don't disagree with this play.

His logic was as follows:

If he raises EP will fold a non-ace hand, but will perhaps call a non-ace hand for only $15.

If he raises, MP also probably folds a non-ace hand, especially if EP calls/raises.

Essentially, if he raises, he's only getting called by an ace, meaning they chop, meaning all they're doing is donating to the rake.

The question is, if he raises to say $50, does he get called by a jack (and perhaps by both players with jacks)....my opinion is he may get called by a jack a handful of times, but the number of times he gets called by a jack will be roughly equal to the number of times one of his opponents has AK or JJ...so they cancel each other out...in fact, being against AK or JJ will lose you more money because you'll be reraised and forced to pay him off.



If you are EP or MP, are you calling any raise with a Jack, for the idiot end of a boat, or any non-Ace hand...and if so, how big a raise are you calling? This is perhaps where I'm wrong and maybe a naked jack calls more often than I think.

Except for perhaps the most loose/fishy players, with 3 players in the pot are you going to read a river raise as anything but an Ax hand?


If you are the MP guy who led out...do you lead this river with a jack? I suppose if you're willing to call $15 you may as well bet $15, on the off chance that you're against JQ and KQ and you can force the jack to fold, so you can scoop, but personally I just don't see any value in it - you may be forced to pay off a small bet if you check, but I don't see the value in betting here without an ace....thoughts on that?


Any thoughts on you would have played in the CO if you're an observer to this action?

How much do the dynamics change if EP folds the turn?

updated with more accurate information - thoughts are appreciated.

I'd rather get an overcall here. I would never be at that river like that though.

You think CO should have raised the flop?

That's what I'm wondering anyway, though he later said he wanted to see the turn first...if either were on a flush draw they were calling ANY bet (especially the MP player) so he figured he'd push on the turn and dodge only one card instead of two.

When his boat came it changed things a bit...now he knew a flush draw wasn't going to call a huge bet (though some weaker players may call a small bet with a flush draw here), otherwise he's just hoping some naked jacks come along for the ride.

That's an outstanding reason to raise the flop.

No, it's an outstanding reason to wait for the turn.

If you have the best hand and your opponent will call any bet with his flush draw on the flop and will also call any bet with his flush draw on the turn, why wouldn't you wait until the turn?

Why would you want to dodge two cards instead of one?

I thought u meant the flop. I have never run into a player that will call a 2-3x's pot bet for a flush draw on the turn. So I would definately say that the hero's read here is inaccurate and I'm not going to go w/ it.

Troo - though it's not accurate every time I, from personal experience, see this is accurate (in this game) a lot more than you'd believe.


But, it's probably correct more often to raise this flop...perhaps push?