Bodog 2/4 NLHE (9-handed) (Hand 287714470)

MP1 $544
Cobalt $498

Cobalt is CO w/ K K . MP1 is potentially loose.

Pre-flop:
2 folds, MP1 raises to $16, 2 folds, Cobalt re-raises to $54, 3 folds, MP1 calls

Flop ($114): 2 5 J (2 players)
MP1 bets $35, Cobalt ?

calls?....feels like trips, though maybe a AK trying to find out where you are

I would raise myself, maybe fold to a re-raise, though I can't get away from KK cause I suck

Reraises - could be AdQd, QQ, AK, AJ, TT and a bunch of other hands that aren't JJ.

btw, what the heck are you doing on no limit?

This is dependent on you, and the way villian has been playing high implied type hands. Does he still try to take it down on the flop w/ one broadway card? There are a number of times that I will go into call down mode in this type of situation. However, most times, I'm going to raise this flop.

Come to think of it, it does look like an AJ bet seeing where he is at

NLHE has always been my bread and butter. Been playing it online since October of 2004. Started at .05/.10 with $25 and built everything from that. Gradually moved up levels and occasionally mixed in some other games like LHE, LCP, and PLO/8. Just started focusing on LHE more within the past few months...but it was running badly over there, so I've transitioned back for a bit.

Okay...so there seems to be moderate agreement that we re-raise. What should we re-raise to?

What is your objective? Do you plan to fold to an all in? Or do you plan to get all Villians money in? If you plan to fold, don't pot commit yourself. You have position so if he just flat calls here, you can see the river for free most likely.

Mark

I'll POT IT! Approx $110 okay, so lets say he calls this raise and turn is a blank PUSH. How bout if he goes over the top? what now??

Sorry most of the stuff I saw from you has been 10/20 and + LHE games I thought

If he is testing for an over pair I think $110 should do it

Flop ($114): 2 5 J (2 players)
MP1 bets $35, Cobalt raises to $155, MP1 calls

Turn ($424): J (2 players)
MP1 bets $120, Cobalt ?


I have $290 left.

you just got f@cked by AJ, QJ, JT, or (less likely) JK. fold. i read him for top pair/decent kicker, not a draw.

otherwise, crying call to the river?

pretty sure you have to fold here unless you are drunk, then make the raise to all in and say "I new it!!!!!!" when he turns over his flush draw

PS we said $110 not $155

Yeah, yeah...I just thought I had the best hand and wanted to charge AJ/QQ. If he came over the top on the flop, I could've folded.

I liked the way you played it assuming you folded the turn

Call me crazy...or optimistic...but it looks like he's playing 10-10 here. It looks like he bet the one over board and when top card paired, he gave you less credit for it and decided his pair was good.

QF partial T

if villian has TT/99 this is a good card for him and villian could bet it

I don't know what this means.

quoted for partial truth

Let's pretend I'm retarded...


Flop ($114): 2 5 J (2 players)
MP1 bets $35, Cobalt raises to $155, MP1 calls

Turn ($424): J (2 players)
MP1 bets $120, Cobalt calls

River ($544): J (2 players)
MP1 bets $170, Cobalt calls


No way to fold now, right?

Seriously though, I'm glad a couple people thought he might have TT here on this turn...cause I thought he might.

Once the river comes, you're paying off quads.

I thought TT, but I'm notorious for never recommending anyone to fold ever in any situation ever ever.

If this guy has a J, he has a monster, monster read on you.


IF he doesn't, nh.

Unless he has AA, then you hate life.

He hates life if he flopped a set under J's

If I'm playing a decent thinking player, this is how I would play a set if I flopped it. Villian must be hating that river. For sure you're paying off quads here.

Mark

This looks like AA to me. I would call though because of the TT QQ possibilities.

Looks like you got beat by AA?? River is a must call at that point. If its quads, sucks to be you, but you couldve abandoned ship on the turn, though easier said than done.

or maybe the guy is just betting cause he has trip/quad jacks




Villian wouldnt bet river OOP with 22 or 55

a better hand wont fold and a worse hand wont call

Eh flop, awful turn, fabolous river

Pay off quads obv if he has it, but Im thinking he thinks his 77-10s, QQ is good

If he has AA, he is a HUGE donk and pretty much botched the hand on every street

Ding ding ding.

Damn that sucks

Thats awful..How does he not get them in there Pf or on the flop?
Donkeys....

Cobalt calls and loses either way, right?

Why dont you like the sneaky play with AA? How's that a donk move? You dont have to push aces hard all the time.

I agree with this, but what more do you want from a flop? You were reraised preflop. You were reraised on the flop. It's pretty apparent your opponent has an overpair to the board. Why not push that flop and double through?

All he did was give Cobalt every chance to get away from the hand as well as give himself an opportunity to fold when the jack paired.

Your right.

Yep, unless he lays down KK pf..Some players do on occasion, I don't though

Why dont you like the sneaky play with AA? How's that a donk move? You dont have to push aces hard all the time.[i]

Eh, to each his own I guess..I push my big hands real hard though..If I had AA there, and that turn comes, or Q or K comes, I really don't like my hand much..Would rather get it all in pronto

Devil's Advocate...

Villain:

"So, I smooth-call preflop to trap Cobalt. Flop comes Jack high. Cobalt's pretty aggressive but doesn't play crappy hands. I bet into the flop. He raises. He could have JJ or an overpair here; I don't think he would've reraised me preflop with AJ or a small pair. JJ smokes me but that's all I'm really worried about. Let's make the call and re-evaluate the turn.

Turn, a Jack. Now, I feel better about Cobalt not having quads, and more sure that he has something like QQ. I still don't think he makes the preflop play with a little pair. I'm going to bet and see what happens.

Great, he called. He wasn't just making a play at me on the flop, so he either has an overpair or quads. I wonder what the river will bring....

Holy shit! Another J! He's so dead...I wonder how much more he'll pay me with his QQ...wow, what if he even has KK...."

I wouldnt want to re evaluate on the turn..If I have AA, I'm about 95 percent sure I have the best hand and I'm also pretty darn sure he has an OP like QQ or KK with how aggressively hes playing it..At that point, I don't want to see either card hit that turn w/out all the money going into the pot...If he can get away from either of those hands on that flop, then good for him..I take down a sizeable pot without showing a hand

I understand your logic here, but the board also played out favorably in this situation

My point is, given the preflop action..

1) The board played favorably because villain could surmise that few cards would put Cobalt ahead

2) I can get away from the hand on the turn if a Q or K falls and Cobalt raises me again when I bet.

Throwem, you're concentrating too much on Level 1 thinking, it seems....

Cobalt: Would you have folded KKs to a pre-flop all in after your reraise? How about QQs?

If not, then the aces might as well have pushed on the flop.

I actually saw someone fold KKs yesterday at the 25/50 NL at FullTilt before the flop (after his reraise was reraised), but I know I can't.

Your gonna get rid of your hand if a K or Q hits? Im saying those are scare cards, but folding would be pretty weak tight..

Lets hear it from some others...Would you get it all in on the flop here or draw the hand out to the river like original villain did?
Also, I acknwledged that I understand your thought process..I know that the board played favorably if were the villain, but I still feel like smooth calling the reraise here is not our best choice


Edit: I also know that at the limits I play at, lower than this here, no one is folding QQ or KK..Maybe that is also why I would jam the flop and explains my take on the hand

I actually kind of agree with Donk here. I see some value in the way Villian played his aces. Cobalts flop reraise is big but the only hands that is he is reraising both preflop here and flop are KK,QQ,JJ Cobalts flop raise is scarey but not always an insta fold and not always a insta push I think on occassion you will see the flop call to re evalute you're hand on the turn. Say an unpaired blank falls on the river like a 8 I think villian will likely lead out here and perhaps even lay it down to another reraise from Cobalt. That J is a great turn for AA as Hero likely didn't reraise pre flop with AJ.

I think I can answer yes, he'd fold QQ PF to an all in. QQ is usually an easy fold to an all in preflop in a cash game, sparing villian is a maniac and/or donkey.

KK ...I dunno. I don't fold KK really preflop....but I "might" in certain situations...long handed, deep stacked 200bb or more, and i'm playing a very solid player that I know would only risk his entire stack preflop with AA. he raise, i re-raise, he re-raise, i re-raise, he push...bleh, then i'd have a tough time calling, but...regardless, even at that point I'd probably sitll call anyways and just deal with it.

We'd probably have to be very very very very deep stacked to get me to fold KK preflop...def. more than 200bb...prob 350 - 400 and >

- Jordan

Haven't ever folded KK pre-flop, and I don't plan to get into that situation soon. I'm not saying it won't ever happen, but I haven't encountered the situation yet.

As for QQ, yeah...would've folded to a big re-re-raise pre-flop. Done that plenty of times.

I don't have a 'tude, and I know that you see my thought process. I think I can convince you though of why I like my line better.

You're essentially saying that you're pushing no matter what on the flop. You may have just pushed back preflop.

But, do you agree that Cobalt's re-raise meant JJ/QQ/KK/AK? If not, I can't help you other than you must think that the villain figured Cobalt for a donk or an extreme LAG (cobalt was LP1).

If you pushed preflop, the only call you're getting is that from a KK. Probably.

If you smooth-call, you're in an excellent situation heads-up. Your opponent must-must-must outflop you. He is drawing very, very thin. Therefore, we should give ourselves a chance to extract the max value from the hand.

No, I'm not advocating folding AA on a J-high board. BUT, we've identified JJ as a possible holding for Cobalt. So, there IS a chance that if we go allin on the flop, we lose our stack. We have to at least call though.

Turn comes. I don't think folding to a re-raise on a turn of Q or K would be weak-tight (cautious would be better). I think Cobalt not showing any weakness when a bigger turn card comes should worry us greatly. Granted, he could have KK and do the same when a Q hits the turn, but we've called the reraise preflop and bet out on the flop...we start getting into level 3 thinking, Cobalt should be considering that we have either hit this board hard or have an over to the board cards. If he does consider either possibility, he's just calling our turn-bet....in order to trap us to pay him off with an AA on the river, or slowing the fck down with his KK.

Point is, we've given ourselves a chance not to go broke if we were in fact outflopped. We've also given ourselves a chance to make the maximum by keeping Cobalt around, knowing he pretty much has to, given our actions.

Donk, I definitely see the point of your thinking, and I think it has merits.
I don't think this is a bad way to play AA (so long as it's not done often). But I don't think it is better either. You have to balance your assessment of being able to extract max value by slowplaying by also considering that there will be times where KK (or even QQ sometimes) would've called your preflop reraise push, but is now allowed to get away cheaply if the flop comes anything like:

A x x

7 8 9

3 of the same suit that he is not holding

Q J x

etc.

for JJ/QQ, add things like:

K x x
Q x x


It is perfectly reasonable for a raising hand that flat calls a reraise to have hit boards like the above really hard, and a decent player with KK/QQ/JJ will shut down facing significant action. Not to mention, except for the first 2 boards in the example above, you yourself are going to be slowing down with AA facing any kind of heavy action also.

Please understand that my line here completely situational. You hand range is much too large. JJ can get away from a q/k/a flop, qq can get away from k/a, and k can only get away from a.

Donk, if someone raises and you reraise with KK and they flat call, and the flop comes

Q J 2

And you face significant action, are you telling me that you are not afraid of QQ, JJ, or QJ held by the villain? My point is that by flat calling the reraise with AA against someone you know to be reraising with JJ-AA and AK, you open up *your* hand range to the villain and make it easier for him to get away if the board comes unfavorably - and not just when the flop comes with an A.

I'm not sure what you mean by "your hand range is too large."

I think another thing we're ignoring is not the villain's ability to put Cobalt on a hand that he can beat, but Cobalt putting the villain on a hand he CAN'T beat.

The way the villain played this was the only way Cobalt was getting away from KK and not paying him off. If he pushes the flop, he doubles up plain and simple. By allowing the scary second jack to come, he gave Cobalt an excuse to fold. The villain's mistake was not in allowing a card to come that would make his hand lose ("oh, the second jack came, but there's no way this guy is reraising with AJ so I'm good"), it was allowing a card to come that would scare Cobalt away ("this guy is 'potentially loose' and I can't believe my KK was just chased down by AJ"). Cobalt still could've and might have gotten away from this hand if that last jack hadn't come. The villain lucked out there, but it's all a moot point if he just pushes his hand harder.

I"m not considering QJ and QK as a real option here.

So really, I've explained why your thinking in my opinion is not optimal already.






I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say the villain could put Cobalt on KK preflop, but MAY put him on a relatively tight range of hands. Cobalt will likely not pay off AA with QQ or AK on the given flop. Cobalt also has to give credit to the villain for the possibility of having JJ, and will have a tough call facing a push by our villain if Cobalt raises the bet.

Cobalt said he was folding QQ preflop to a push-allin, and he would've done the same with AK. So, the villain has to be sure Cobalt has KK to make the flop.

Everything postflop I've already explained and I don't really think you've refuted it.

...because a hand like QJ never raises and flat calls a reraise?

even discarding QJ, facing significant action on a board like that and holding KK, you are saying you can't get away when it's quite possible you are up against QQ/JJ? You really can only get away from KK postflop only if the board comes A?