Relativity

I really like Scott Adams' non-Dilbert writing. Thanks for the link.

Interesting read, but the thing is that reality is not objective, it's not up for discussion- either something is real or it isn't. People that claim that God is the reason for this, the reason for that, the reason I am or am not struck by lightning, whatever- for the most part, are wrong. The problem isn't that the thing they think hapened did or didn't happen, it's that the reasons why they believe it happened are incorrect.

When it comes to Christianity, it all starts with the Bible. I think any Self- proclaiming Chritian would agree to that. The problem is that interpetation of the Bible and sometimes just flat out malicious disortion of it has reached the point that most people that claim they are christians BIBLICALLY in fact are not. In there bubble they believe it to be so but there bubble is made out of religous fabrication.

Which is one of the reasons why it is hard to convince a non- believer of anything, because the story is always so different, the details are murky and the doctrine is different or there is not doctrine at all, it's all good christianity so to speak. God never intended it to be that way, however, he did say it would happen. It's human nature to mentally throw out what we don't want to adhere too and create our own way- and in that one sentence is 99.9% of religion. I call it The Religion of My Way, and most of us fall in this category, at this point in time me included.

so he's not all powerful then?





that's a really poor analogy because relativity doesn't prepose alternate realities. on the contrary it implies one fixed reality - just with time being the same as a dimension. he should have used quantum mechanics instead - much better fit lol

God never intended for the Bible to be messed with, how does that make him not all powerful? Just because he doen't want me to have sex with prostitutes doesn't mean I won't, hence free will. I can see how you would misinterpet that and run with it, though.

well if he was all powerful he would have obviously forseen humans would mess with it enough to where as you said "it's hard to convince a non-believer of anything" and prevented that (assuming he wants people to believe).

You just don't get it . . . although you just said it. He WANTS people to believe . . . BUT . . . will not MAKE people believe. That is FREE WILL!!!!! He gives us the choice plain and simple. You can choose to believe or not . . . that is the way HE made it.

no, you don't get it. if he wanted us to believe in him it makes no sense that he would leave so much room for doubt that most of the world WON'T believe. your god is either pretty dumb and ineffective, or just a sadistic game-player.

Doubt???? The only reason there is doubt in this world is because of the way society is straying from the core beliefs that we were founded on. We were given the Bible as a reference and proof of what GOD has done for us. He gave us his word, in print no less, as proof. Man is the one that is now questioning the validity of this proof by not believing what has been passed down as GOD's word for generation after generation. People are straying from GOD . . . not the other way around.

Besides that, who would want a GOD that MAKES people believe in him, right? That's not a sadistic game . . . that's a choice he has given us. It is up to you and all other non-believers whether you choose to believe in him or not. That is neither dumb nor sadistic . . . that is GOD's love for us. He sent his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins. All you have to do is make the choice to believe in him and your sins are forgiven. To me, that seems like a pretty loving GOD. First to make that sacrifice and then after all that to still give you the choice to believe or not . . . seems like he thinks a lot more of you then you do of him.

It makes absolute sense in that it insures free- will. God will not make you do anything, as a christian he will use the tools that he uses to help guide you but he's not in the buisness of deciding your path. It really, truly, is on you.

Guess what? If you want to find reason to doubt, you will find it. Not much God can do about that.






Also he did forsee and warned Christians to be aware of wolves in sheeps clothing who would prophesy deceits. It's not like it's not all in the Bible just waiting for you or anything like that... wait, oh my goodness it is!! What a crazy world.

what exactly are these "core" beliefs human society is founded on? the majority of the world's beliefs certainly aren't founded on the christian bible, so i hope you don't mean that.



this is exceptionally lame reasoning, even by christian apologist standards. nobody is questioning the validity of the bible by simple choosing to not believe it. they are questioning it either because it conflicts with other non-christian beliefs, or because it conflicts with a logical approach to reality.



nice sermon





lmd, you and foose are (among other mistakes in logic) both shifting the burden of proof. i'm not about to *start* by assuming the validity of the bible like you are doing and seem to expect non-believers to do for some reason.

Easily the most widely known bestseller in the entire world, that speaks of a man that most cultures are aware existed and calls for a more spiritual, self examing type lifestyle where the goal is to be a better person in this life.

Whether or not you believe the validity of it is meaningless- the book is a powerful one, with the ability to change lives, and even a person who did not believe that it came from a god would have to agree that if the principals given in this book were applied, it would indeed be very powerful.

I love to hear about burden of proof, seriously, I do, mostly because THERE IS NO BURDEN. If you don't accept the word, God says move on, I have done my job, and basically I can wash my hands of you. When you talk about this so called burden of proof I laugh a little inside because whereas my faith can get me through the times of doubt and soul searching you have nothing except the devices of man to rely on, and it's lacks any type of soul, spirituality and it's void of fullfillment. Believe me, I feel no burden.

irrelevant to the question of whether the bible is the inspired word of god. many other non-christian religions do the same thing.



as much as the difference between heaven and hell is meaningless? people's immortal souls are supposedly at stake - what are you saying?



it's pretty presumptuous to think that people who rely on the devices of man (whatever that means) are unfulfilled. i'm MUCH happier and fulfilled as an agnostic than i was as a christian.

Meaning the fact that you think it's not valid means little, if anything, to God. He said there would be some that would feel this way so you actually end up fitting in with his plan whether you want to or not.


I actually felt a little presumptuos when I wrote that, and I apologize. What I mean is that it must be very unfullfilling because on some level you want proof, but in reality the kind of proof you need will not be there- it just won't. The proof that is there isn't good enough because you lack the faith to take that leap. So, what you need can never be fullfilled for you.

what proof is that?

And we have come full circle. The world around you, the intricacy of it, the beauty and the both complications and simplicity of all creation, points to a creator, a thinker, a thouught process. Millions of people know of Jesus, and we have a book that tells of him and the book makes sense, as far as the doctrine that it teaches is concerned. Many of the things it says not to do or do spiritually nake sense, in that it helps the mind be as clear and as strong as it can be. Said book is inspired by God, and has things in it which are nothing short of backwards in relation to the times when it was written- if a man spoke of these things, thought this way, taught this way when it was written he would not have been looked at as a friend but rather foe.

The very fact that you and I are discussing this points to free-will but you would argue even that, so it is any stretch that I conclude that no amount of proof or possible proof would be good enough for you? Do you realize that if I were going door to door and teaching the gospel I would have left your house long ago? I can't help you, because you don't have the ability to make the leap of faith that is neccesary. It's a very basic requirement and very neccesary to if you are going to succesfully be able to serev God.

if there was ANY emperical proof of god, or that the bible wasn't obvious fiction/fable we would be having a different conversation. there isn't.

you believe what you believe only through faith, and i don't need to brainwash myself to be happy.

True, brainwashing is not neccesary, but you will need to abase yourself and realize that you are not the be all and end of all of religous discussion, you of your own volition cannot decide there is no God and make it so, especially if there is one, and more specifically if the christian one exists. There are reasons to believe the bible and reasons to not- the divide is largely ruled by the faithless and the faithful, just like God said it would be.

yes and the only way to gain faith is to take a blind leap ignoring empirical evidence.

It's not an easy road for some, I agree.

You do realize that you just basically admitted that there is as much evidence and reason to believe in god as there is to believe in Alvin and the Chipmunks, right?

See other thread nitwit.