about 80 left in the 5r on party.

***** Hand History for Game 4392978277 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny:24234042 Level:17 Blinds-Antes(8000/16000-400) - Monday, May 29, 19:01:41 ET 2006
Table $15K Gtd Rebuy(711392) Table #5 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: monsepus ( $221800 )
Seat 2: Deadcash71 ( $360081 )
Seat 3: rawfooder ( $84958 )
Seat 5: crocd99 ( $266692 )
Seat 6: MB16021972 ( $136342 )
Seat 7: STONEFOX48 ( $169306 )
Seat 9: doubes ( $286850 )
Seat 8: Nile_City ( $214460 )
Seat 10: cooldaddy113 ( $217576 )
Trny:24234042 Level:17
Blinds-Antes(8000/16000-400)
monsepus posts ante [400].
Deadcash71 posts ante [400].
rawfooder posts ante [400].
crocd99 posts ante [400].
MB16021972 posts ante [400].
STONEFOX48 posts ante [400].
Nile_City posts ante [400].
doubes posts ante [400].
cooldaddy113 posts ante [400].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to crocd99 [ Kd As ]
doubes folds.
cooldaddy113 folds.
monsepus folds.
Deadcash71 folds.
rawfooder is all-In [84558]
crocd99 is all-In [266292]
MB16021972 folds.
STONEFOX48 is all-In [160906]
Nile_City folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5c, Ts, Td ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4s ]
** Dealing River ** [ 8d ]
STONEFOX48 shows [ 6h, 6s ] two pairs, tens and sixes.
rawfooder shows [ Jc, Qs ] a pair of tens.
crocd99 shows [ Kd, As ] a pair of tens.
crocd99 wins 97386 chips from side pot #2 with a pair of tens.
STONEFOX48 wins 168696 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, tens and sixes.
STONEFOX48 wins 273274 chips from the main pot with two pairs, tens and sixes.
Player rawfooder finished in 96 place and received $40.96
XXXX

this hand totally crippled me as i was hit with the bb twice in a row right after this hand

Looks fine to me - I'm pushing there every time with AKo.

It's donkfest time based on everybody's stack size. With two all-ins in front of him, I would have folded sixes myself if I was villain.

yeah i thought so but sometimes i just want to post to check.. oh the guy with sixes he went out a little while after when he called three allins and the last all in had him covered... he had 22 lol

He has nobusiness calling w/ 6-6. Serves him right. If you only raise, he might re-raise all in pre-flop anyways with 6-6 & you would most likely call putting yourself in the same spot.

Absolutely correct move and I hope you put in your notes that Stonefox was a fish.

Im going to ask some general questions first before I confirm that you need to push in that spot.

What is the average stack size?
What is the payout structure?
What are your personal goals in this tourney (ie. make it to the money, or shoot for first, even if it means missing the money, etc.)

Without this info, it would appear to me that there is very little incentive to be pushing in that spot. Eliminating an opponent (so there are 79 players as opposed to 80) means nothing right now. The difference between having approximately $360K in chips as opposed to $260K looks great, but with an unmade hand like AK, is the risk of going down to about $100K worth it at that point?

In Harrington on Hold'em Volume II, he discusses concepts like this in far greater depth than I have here, but I can certainly see reasons for letting this go (although in actuality I personally wouldn't be able to pass here). I am sure that Harrington will elaborate on it even more in Volume III (coming soon to a bookstore near you!)

Short stack has 5 BB left, he is pushing with a very wide range of holdings. I see no reasoning for not pushing. You aren't going to get very many chances to accumulate chips and this is one of them. The fact that the 6's called is irrelevant because he shouldn't have called. You always play for first and moves like this are what separate the guy who finished in 17th and the guy who wins the thing.

Yeah, I would definitely ask these questions before jamming over a 5 BB jammer in late position for 16 BBs with AKo because I would only get to 360k.

Can't tell if there was sarcasm in there or not...

It's the PP 15K so payout is almost entirely at the FT. From the last line of the HH there are 96 left, and he's ITM for about $40 right now. Payouts increase slightly from here but if you play this you have to play to make the FT or it's just not worth it. I'd rather take a shot at building a decent stack and make a run at the FT than get blinded down, move up 20 spots and make an additional $40 if that.

Give me a reason to let this go, and then I will tell you whether that was sarcastic or not.

Read my post above...

So basically, you let this go because you might lose?

If that is the case, and Hero had TT in this spot, would you also advise folding?

Okay, I have been posting in general for quite some time and am now making an effort to spend more time in strat. I'd like to think I have something to add to tourney play. Looks like you have been around a while. In reading a few of your posts, just my opinion, but man a tad bit too tight for my taste. Making moves is what win tournaments. If you lay down big hands every time it is a possibility your opponent has a big one, you are going to be giving up th winning hand most of the time. Most players are bad and will be calling with much less than their play might indicate. The goal is to accumulate chips, not just make the money. You have to be WILLING to gamble to win tournaments. The way you profit is by people laying down hands because they are looking to make the money and you are looking to win.

I am considered very tight (on paper), but I am also very successful at my level of play, but certainly am still learning. I am fairly certain I clearly said that I propably couldn't lay it down, but was merely suggesting that there may be reasons for doing so, which Harrington details in his books. Whether this is one of those situations (as it is solely based on the math) I am uncertain of at this juncture, but my points are valid.

Believe me I am a huge proponent of Harrington's, volumes 1 and 2 are great books. By your post I am assuming that you play the lower tournaments. Playing very tight is going to be very profitable at that level. I still don't think it is necessarily optimal but still profitable. It is just my opinion that if you don't go broke on this hand then overall, you are losing equity in these situations. Accumulate chips or go home.

Alright, doing a little math.

We assign villian the tighest range possible. AQ+, 77+. Pot is 28k before he jams, he jams for 88k. We have to call 88k into a 116k pot, so we need approximately 1.31 to 1 odds to call. AKo versus that range is 48:52 (thanks to mk for the calculations). I think we have the odds to call/overjam.

If we add AJ into the range, we are now 52:48.

Villian pushed with QJo. Clearly, our range is not wide enough.

Folding when you are ahead is a good way to limp into the money.

Yes I do, and yes I am.

Going broke is never optimal. Risking going broke however MAY be...lol

I might go broke on this hand when he holds A's or K's but more often than not I am either adding 25% to my chips or getting called by weaker hands than I hold and doubling up. Since you are big fan of Harrington's then I assume you subscribe to the push or fold 10 BB rule right? Hero is getting VERY close to this level. I doubt Harrington would be a proponent of not going broke on this hand.
Oops, got this mixed up with the J's hand, lol

Are you getting confused with the 10-1 rule (which we don't have here BTW)? We don't have only 10BB here either, so I am uncertain what you are referring to here.

See above. I posted in the wrong thread. But I think the same concept. You have to be willing to make moves to accumulate chips.

easy push.

terrible call with 6-6.

Bad break....next tourney please.

IMO that has to be your mentality when playing MTT, especially ones with very steep pay structures, and quick blind elevation.

The only way to be successful in those type tourneys is by cashing deep. If you play to make the money$40 which on average you will prob only do at best 20%, you obviously will be a losing player.

MTT's are about accumulating, and going deep. If the $40 cash is that valuable to you, then you are playing over your BR

its funny how often tourney success comes down to AK outdrawing a pair...every tourney ive made it deep in has come down to a huge pot with AK.

the 66 is a bad call but his M is what ? ~6 He cant really afford to wait around much longer and might feel this is his best opportunity. If you've been card dead for a long time when the blinds are rising fast any pair starts to look like Aces.

In reviewing some Harrington on Holdem Volume II for this topic, I found the discussion I was looking for. In reviewing it, I noticed that it is a very similar situation as this post here, so I will paraphrase what Harrington has to say in his example, and hopefully everyone can see the comparison.

60 player remaining - 30 get paid. 9 at table, second to act with $37 000 (M = 41). We are currently in top 10 in chips. 150/300 blinds + $50 antees.

A K offsuit and raise $1200 (4X the BB). CO has $11 200 (M=12.5), raises to $5000, leaving himself $6200.

Harrington indicates that this is a fold situation.

Taking the same example he gives, but changing our opponents stack from $11 200 to $16 200, Harrington indicates this is a call situation unless we are up against a super-tight opponent.

Changing our opponents stack once more to $8 200, Harrington advocates this as being a definate call, saying that when our odds are approaching 1.5 to 1, we almost always call.

Harrington in this example discusses our current chip position as being a factor, the number of players remaining as being a factor, and our possible increased equity as being a factor. In the OP here, we have not been provided specific details such as the average chip stack, the payout structure, nor our current standing. It may not be such an automatic play as originally thought by many people.

This is different in about 12 different ways but I will cover the most important one-
the jammer had 5(!!^$$&%!@$#&!!!!) BBs. Hero has 16 BBs. Jammers range is wide enough to include QJo, this AK is at worst a 58:42 favorite over his range. In the Harrington example, Hero has 37k at 150-300, which is slightly over 100 BBs. Don't compare a deepstack example of a raise and a reraise, where AK is foldable, to a shortstack example of a single jam, where AK is NOT foldable.

I'm not trying to compare it, but rather trying to assist people in seeing that there are many more factors involved in these situations than just seeing our two cards (AK) and pushing. All too often many of us (including myself) are way too quick to assume that it is the right play, when we haven't allowed the pot odds, increased equity, and all that other jazz assist in guiding us towards the correct play.

I see what you're saying. I hate the bandwagon mentality that tends to happen in these threads and I myself enjoy playing devil's advocate, but this is a situation where one play is clearly correct and one play is clearly wrong. The only possible source for discussion is whether or not we should just call, in hopes that a big stack holding something like AQ or AJ will jam over the top of us and we can get a monster pot going. Even considering folding for a fraction of a nanosecond is completely unacceptable.

This is my last post in this thread, for it has been to angering to me to argue this. This is a push situation. It is ridiculously clear. If you fail to see this, by all means, please come play in my tournaments, I will take your money be happy to play with you.

How bad IS this call by 66? I don't know if I do it, but I'm not so sure it's terrible.

His M is 6ish.

He could simply be saying...wow, nice chance to close to triple up here, especially if I'm against two players with counterfeited outs.


Assuming he puts the first guy on any pair, any two broadway, any ace, perhaps any king, perhaps most suited connectors...

what range would he have to put the second guy on to make his call correct/reasonable?



That's the minraise, right?

I haven't really argued anything one way or the other, mearly pointed out possible things that nobody else has mentioned. I would be hard pressed to NOT call/push here myself, so I highly doubt you would be taking my money (unless you were the guy with the pocket 6's)...lol

I spent a weekend one night in Cambridge, Ontario.

But I grew up in Kingston so I shouldn't talk...

Haha. Bizzle owns.