From Daniel's post:

First of all Barry [Greenstein] doesn't believe in Heaven, Hell, or God for that matter. He is a proud atheist along with Chris Ferguson. Both men mocking the idea that there is a God claiming that there is no contemporary evidence to prove Jesus' existence.

I remember talking to Chris Ferguson about it one night and he looked at me like I was delusional. I was trying to explain to him that calling himself Jesus, especially considering his beliefs, is very offensive to the majority of this country.

Barry Greenstein's response at 2+2:

I certainly never talked about evidence of Jesus's existense. I haven't spent any time researching it. However, when Daniel told me he was sure the earth was less than 6000 years old, I suggested that he should take a look at the Grand Canyon, learn about carbon dating, or study astronomy.

I am not a "proud" atheist. I respect beliefs that are different than mine. I think religion has helped many people become better, and I believe Daniel is among them. As long as people are good to others, I don't care what caused them to incorporate that into their philosophy.

Six thousand years old? You don't have to believe in carbon dating or any other radiometric dating to refute that. You can count tree rings back beyond 12,000 years. Similar to counting tree rings, you can count annual layers in certain ice cores that go back several hundred thousand years. You can can also count annual sediment layers (called varves) in large lakes that go back several hundred thousand years.

We can also see numerous stars that are way more than 6,000 light-years away -- meaning that their light has been traveling toward us for way more than 6,000 years.

This does not prove the Earth existed for more than 6,000 years. That light could have been traveling before the Earth came into existance.

Yes, and dinosaur fossils may have been planted deep beneath the earth's crust (even though no dinosaurs ever existed) just to give the appearance of a history that never happened.

There's no way to prove that the earth is more than two weeks old. Maybe God created the world last Tuesday, and planted false childhood memories in your head just like he created the starlight on its way here.

But why would God create the world to appear older than it really is? What's with the (apparently) 65-million-year-old fossils? What's with the lead isotopes at levels along the decay continuum indicating an age of 4.5 billion years? What's with my birth certificate being dated well before last Tuesday?

All the evidence points to an old earth. Why should we believe that all the evidence was faked? Is God the Great Deceiver?

but all of his other points prove the earth has existed more than 6,000 years

True, but who really counts up to 12,000 rings on a tree? I mean, I get up to 1100 or so and my mind is starting to wander.

Wow. I'm staying away from this.


Nikki

im all for a higher power...

and im all for people having a personal relationship with their image of god.....


but damnit, i'm not gonna believe that a sea turtle has been alive for a significant fraction of the world's existence.

and im not gonna believe that some of the greatest caverns and canyons were created in that amount of time.

its a ridiculous idea.

Not if there was a worldwide flood that covered the earth for forty days and nights. :wink:

Ill give the chances of being a god about 8 to 1.

the chances of this world being 2000 years old?
lol

daniel, i know you enjoy reading

i suggest the following

Livy - The History of Rome
Herodotus - The Histories
Thucydides - The Peloponnesian War

It's one thing to argue the meaning of the life of Jesus Christ
It's another thing to argue with verified recorded history.

oh yeah, and fossils

I have pudding in my fridge that *could* be older.

I guess that would make the canyons in the ocean pretty damn deep, and just about ready to come out the other side.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html

here you go fellas, this is the United States Geological Survey's webpage on the age of the Earth, it contains only facts

This site answers all the questions concerning evolution vs. creation. Also discusses dinosaurs, etc.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

...and YOU once commented that I was weird

And we're supposed to trust anything the government says is true? Just because they call it a fact? Like when they said 'the fact is there are weapons of mass destruction'.

Is it hard to type with all that tin foil you're wearing?

This wouldn't create canyons. If everything were covered in water, there most likely wouldn't be a current strong enough to create significant erosion. Every current would be based on the thermodynamics of there being more heat at the equator.

There isn't enough water in the world to cover the largest mountains, even if both polar ice caps melt.

Well said good sir, you've done my work for me. And all the while with a Hobbes avatar. . . . I miss the crazy antics of him and Calvin ever so much.

But, what if 6,000 years ago, God decided to create a universe that was already billions of years old on the day he created it?

This site is not going to help in any way to convince an evolutionist to accept creationism. To an evolutionist, this site will come off as the ramblings of a lunatic.

Sorry, I don't wear tin foil. That's for lining my home with.

i just read an interesting theory that both sides of the debate can agree upon


man existed as an animal before 10k years ago.... then the human soul came into existence.... before that. earth was a rock covered with wild animals


something to think about i guess

lol nice

I honestly think that this is one of those things....if you don't have a personal testimony of Christ and the Bible, you probably won't believe that the earth is less than 10,000 years old.

I could argue the reliability of carbon dating, but don't know enough about the other subjects to say anything about them.

In my religion, we believe that the 6 days of creation weren't literal, 24-hr days... That could account for the carbon dating and tree ring arguments, etc.

Still, you could not convince me that Christ did/does not exist and that the Bible is untrue. That's where testimony comes in.

I'd love to know.... so you can look at a little newborn and tell me that it was a freak accident of nature?? I'm amazed at that!

I look at a baby and think its because sperm fertilized an egg.

Its a freak of nature when my aces go down to 27 off suit

Frankly, this is a tricky subject to get into to. The reason is that general comprehension of the universe is different for those who believe in a God. If you are a Christian, you are accepting a world where a single being has the ability to do whatever he wants at any time. Creating a world 6000 years ago that had all the clues of being far older would be quite simple for that being to do. And to Christians, this is an insignificant world with many things being pulled over all of our eyes to blind us from the truths of the universe (kinda matrix-like I suppose). The only way to find the truth is to die, and I don't think we've figured out how to talk to dead people yet (except for the crazy frauds pretending they can).

Just rent the sixth sense.

True, forgot about that.

Does you not believe that humans came from monkeys?? .... Has you ever eaten a banana? Vat is proof tight there.. .......(ALI G)

then the human soul came into existenc


Then the Easter bunny came hop, hop, hopping along and hid eggs under all of the souls!

Souls...what's wrong with you people exactly? Is there some sort of damage to the part of the brain that prevents you from being able to tell when something is contrived BS?

Souls, pfft. One born every minute all right.

i saw the easter bunny today at the mall


i can't wait to see what he leaves under my soul

why does he have eggs, im really wondering how this got started? must be the holy magic or something?

I tend to classify myself in the "Spiritual" Category, not really caring what the differneces between the religions are...

I think the book that helped me more than any other was "The World's Religions: Our Great Wisdon Traditions" By Huston Smith. Its a great book and helped me to understand my views and confirm my beliefs.

I was friends with a literalist christian while I worked with him, he had me read a book that a scientist and confirmed literalist wrote. I do forget the name actually, but it tried to explain using science that the world is only 6000 years old. I read my way through it because I believe challenging yourself and knowledge are two things that are required with faith.

I for one did not believe the book, but it was interesting to read, and afterwords I will be perfectly honest, it actually made me believe that literalists were further from the truth...the man picked and choose the numbers he used, ignoring everything else.

But It was a good book, and I'm looking forward to reading the one Daniel suggested.

If I were to classify myself, I would say I'm a buddhist/catholic/hindu

Ain't that a mut of a religion? We're all praying to the same God though, that is.. the ones who do believe in a God.

I came across this article today and thought others might find it interesting to hear what Charles Townes, the physics professor who co-invented the laser, believes about Creation and Christianity.

The Real Prize
by John Fischer

It has just been reported that Charles Townes, the University of California Berkeley physics professor who shared the 1964 Nobel Prize for his work in quantum electronics and who co-invented the laser has been awarded the $1.5-million Templeton Prize for progress in spiritual knowledge. He is an award-winning scientist who believes in God. A rare combination for many, but Dr. Townes doesn’t think so.

“If you look at what religion is all about,” he said in a newspaper interview, “it’s trying to understand the purpose and meaning of our universe. Science tries to understand function and structures. If there is any meaning, structure will have a lot to do with [it]. In the long run they must come together.” Despite his many accomplishments and prestigious awards in the scientific field, Dr. Townes believes there is no greater question facing humankind than discovering the meaning and purpose of life.

Charles Townes is 89 and he’s on a mission—a mission that has put him at odds with some of his colleagues over the years. In 1964, while a professor at Columbia University, he wrote an article: “The Convergence of Science and Religion.” When it was later published by MIT, a prominent alumnus threatened to break ties with the institution. But Charles Townes sees no conflict between faith and science. Indeed, he believes that recent discoveries only increase the plausibility of a plan behind the formation of our universe.

The Big Bang theory (that the universe had a cataclysmic beginning) has so much evidence supporting it, he says, that most scientists who study the origins of the cosmos take it for granted. “The fact that the universe had a beginning is a very striking thing.” Dr. Townes said. “How do you explain that unique event without God?” In other words, mounting scientific evidence is making it harder not to believe in God.

What makes this all remarkable is that Charles Townes is a great scientist. Someone else could make these statements and not many people would care. The excellence with which he has pursued his work has lent credibility to his beliefs, making them harder to dismiss by those who do not share them. Think of the young students he has affected as a Nobel Prize winning professor. It does not appear that his belief in God is anything he has been quiet about. And now he joins a very illustrious group of those who have received the Templeton Award ahead of him, including Mother Teresa and Billy Graham.

And yet all of this comes down to a man who believes that God created us with a purpose, and that’s something you and I can understand. Charles Townes has simply brought that belief to bear on his work and we can do that too. We probably won’t receive the Templeton Prize for it, but that doesn’t make what we do and represent any less significant. Besides, we’ve all got a big prize waiting for us in heaven.

For the complete article see “Physicist Wins Spirituality Prize” Los Angeles Times, March 10, 2005, p. A10.

The problem with using science and other(human) methods is that it's all based on our assumptions.
Everybody KNEW the Earth was flat=science
Bleeding people who are sick, cures them=science

The same science that told us those things were fact is now telling us that the Earth MUST be "X years old".

Fact?

If you believe the Bible is true, don't you have to be a creationist?
In the beginning God created...

I saw Penn & Teller's Bullshit, they had an episode about it, the sad part is that some schools in the US wants to teach it, how people can belive in it is beyond me.

Who cares? By that I mean, who cares if Crapface believes this and Dumpface believes that? Just let people believe what they want to believe. When you find out that someone believes something different from you, say "That's nice, did you see the game last night?" or some other thing to change the subject at hand.

I have a hard time understanding why ANYONE finds it important to discuss/argue something that neither side is going to budge on. My friends and I found out a long time ago that we either do not talk about it, or make sure we are OBVIOUSLY joking if we say something.

You do make a pretty darn good point. I'm unsure of what this thread's purpose was anyway except to start a long, twisted, volatile debate that would leave some people greatly annoyed. I actually think this thread ran quite smoothly considering the monster arguments that certainly could have broken out.

The Bible was compiled and written between 200 and 300 AD as a means to try and hold the fragmenting Roman empire toghether. A group of politicians sat down and voted on everything from the format of the Church to the divinity of Jeses (divinity apparently only one by a very small fraction). They also voted on whether or not he was married and the virgin birth, and just think, all this before CSI! This IS recorded history. Now here's my spin on it,if they can't count votes in Florida, who's to say Jesus being voted divine by a bunch of politicians wasn't rigged? (This way I neatly side step the fact that politicans shouldn't create and modify religions to suit their own needs, oh wait, that's Washinton).

"Easter" when Christians celebrate Christs little run in with the cross (doesn't it strike you as strange that the Church adopted a device of torture as their primary symbol?) conveniently falls on or round a number of old Pagan holidays. It is actually a celebration of Spring or the new year, and the eggs symbolise birth and new life. The dates of Christian festivals really have nothing to do with Jesus's life they just conveniently mirror older Pagan festivals. Easter = Spring. Christmas (which jesus was born no where near) = winter solstice (huge deal in Pagan cultures) etc.

Not sure about the easter bunny but that seems to be an idea that keeps going and going and going and going.... (sic)

I think the whole egg hiding thing started because Jesus had a very high cholestreol(sp) count. When he came into town on Palm Sunday, someone said "Hey, he's coming......hide the eggs!!!"

That $250 million museum they're building. That thing is going to be less than 10 miles from my house. As the only person with only education around here, I can't wait to see what it's like.

Earth = 6000 years old?

Where does that belief come from? Not the Bible.

Bible chronology shows humans being created ~6000 years ago, not the Earth. There is no date reference in the Bible to derive a creation date for Earth.

The Biblical creative days are not literal days.

Just as in Galileo's time, it's not that science & the Bible are in disagreement, it's people deriving incorrect conclusions from what they are reading in the Bible.

You are just making stuff up here. The ancient Babylonians and Greeks who formalised the scientific methods discerned that the Earth was round, some even came up with heliocentric models of the solar system. They also calculated the circumference of the Earth with astounding accuracy given their technology.

The only people who believed the Earth was flat were people making statements out of their own ignorance. Saying that you KNOW stuff is not science, it is blind faith. Making a hypothesis that has testable predictions that can be verified or falsified independently is science.

Good posting.

I don't know what livy is going to do for you, it was made by machiavelli who was a historian, but it was meant as a explanation of rome's greatness not necessarily a true historical record. The peloponnesian war was that even B.C.? Sorry for being so anal, im just really bored and I don't want to finish writing a paper.

Do any of you guys have a backup plan if your wrong? Its always good to plan ahead no matter how sure you are of yourselves..

No backup plan, but I can't make myself belief something I feel to be false. Also, given that the world is full of meaningless and unjust suffering, I sincerely hope that Christianity, Islam and Judaeism are wrong - if there is an intelligent creator, he clearly doesn't like us.

Let me ask u this then. If you saw all Christians walking around completely unfazed by this world would you become a Christian and what would ur reason be. I think the logical answer is that of course u would become a christian to avoid the problems of this world. Now thats not exactly how I would want people to come to me and I dont think that is the way that God wants people to come to christianity...as a way to avoid problems in thier life. Now are things in this world unfair? My freind's sister has a 7 month old baby who is more then likely not going to last another 2 weeks. Wouldnt we all love to understand why God does what he does? Christians face problems because this world has been full of sin from the beginning. LIfe is a struggle. Jesus never said it would be easy but He did say the reward woudl be great. So if I have to struggle for this short time now to recieve an eternity of happiness..well thats just something ill go ahead and do.