This is a $20 tournament on Ultimate Bet. Stacks starting at 1500 and blinds begin at 5-10. Roughly 300 players to start. At this point in the tournament, the blinds are 50-100, and I have a stack of about 12000. The table is somewhat passive preflop, not a lot of raising going on. My image has been loose-aggressive, picking up countless small pots and winning some big pots as well with rarely a showdown. In this particular spot I find K J in late position. 2 limp in from early position. I raise it up to 400, hoping to pick up a small pot here preflop (which frequently happened), or to build a pot in position. All fold except the BB (stack of nearly 10000) who calls, and one of the original limpers (stack of 6500). Interestingly enough, some of the bigger stacks in the tourny at this moment are involved in this hand. Pot is at 1350.

Flop: K 9 10

Certainly a decent flop for this hand. Board is somewhat coordinated, but I like my hand in this spot, having position. Both players check to me, and I bet 1000. Surprisingly, the BB check raises and makes it 2500 to go. While it's possible I'm beat here by obvious hands like QJ or 2 pair, I'm thinking this player is beginning to grow tired of my post flop continuation bets and steals, and may be pushing me around. I don't want to get involved in a huge pot here on just the flop, so I smooth call here to see what develops on the turn, in doing so telling my opponent I DO have at least a K. Pot is 6350.

Turn: 4

Definitily a great card here. I now have top pair with the flush draw and gut shot straight draw. If my opponent checks, I'm pushing automatically. Except, my opponent pushes all in instantly with a bet of a little over 7000, giving me slightly less then 2-1 on a call. I mull over it for a bit, and finally decide to let it go, and wait for a better spot. If I am being bluffed here, so be it. It seemed odd for this player to be showing so much strength. I checked odds, and I'm a 3-1 underdog on hands like KQ, a set or a straight. AK (unlikely due to prefop action) or K 10 (possible) makes me a little more then a 2-1 dog. Too many hands IMO that beat me and give me bad odds to call. Also, I'm still left with nearly 9000 in chips, plenty to work with. Yet, if I had called and won this pot, I'd have been a HUGE chip leader and primed to sail to the final table IMO. So it was tempting indeed..

What's your analysis of this hand and how it was played out? What range of hands do you put my opponent on? And what's your play on the turn when facing this bet and why? Thank you for your time and responses....

As soon as I saw this title, I knew that folding was probably going to be wrong. If you're up against AA here, you have 16 outs. Even if you're up against a set, you have 11 outs. This is an easy call.

You play to win.

I play this like the OP.

Although, # left, paystructure, etc are important.

But..I'd rather not take a 25-35% chance here.

Very true. These details are important. I believe there may have been about 190 players left. Average stack hovered near 2500. And the top 30 payout. I made my decision knowing there was plenty of poker left and I could afford to wait for another spot. Sadly, a few hands later I was all in preflop with KK vs. AK and my opponent spiked an A on the turn, leaving me shortstacked and from there couldn't recover.... SIGH

just to be clear,
I meant "You" = Iggy, not "You" in General, because I think calling here is big gamble to get chips.

As early as it is though... I"m not sure calling is a "playing to win" move

because you have so many chips to play with id probably fold and look for a better spot. i think you were beat here anways. especially if you were picking up alot of small pots. you could easily get those chips back fairly quickly. This plays also adds to your loose aggressive style and get you paid of later. But if i were a medium sized stack im probably going with the hand. cause i do play for the win. but there is no need for a big confrontation here with all those chips IMO.

Yes folding does seem to be the optimal move in this spot. After I folded my opponent showed 9 10 for 2 pair. Interestingly enough, had I known that, I think I may have called fairly quickly. His 9 10 for the 2 pair gives him only a slight edge, maybe 54% I believe it was, so maybe gambling here is not so bad. But seriously, how could I have known that? My opponent made a good bet. I thought this was an interesting scenario that I would share with everyone.

In the immortal words of Mike Sexton, I think the error you made was to "give up control of the hand". Why would you simply call the check-raise on the flop just to fold to a push on the turn when your hand improved? Don't look at the hand your opponent showed you to influence your thoughts on the decisions you made throughout, as I think you played it very poorly pre-flop AND on the flop.

This is the key - you called his check/raise and then folded the turn when your hand improved.

If you were calling to hit a KQJ on the turn, then you made a mistake, as the price was bad....you're over 5:1 to hit your hand on the turn and if they do hit you're probably not getting any more money for a winning hand.

If you were calling because you thought you were still ahead, or you weren't sure, then you need to call that turn, because either you're still ahead OR you have 9 more outs than you did on the flop....in all likelihood (and as it turned out) you're just over 2:1 to hit your hand.


If you're confident enough in your play to fold this turn, you should have folded the check/raise on the flop.

You know I think you're exactly right. This is why I come to these boards, to seek advice or constructive criticism. I've actually learned quite a lot from some of the regular posters here. My mistake was calling the flop check raise, and not calling an all in bet on the turn, especially since my hand improved. I should have considered any future bets based on my flop call. So IF I had assumed I could possibly face an all in bet on the turn, but decide to not commit my chips by calling that bet, it's best to lay my hand down on the flop.

MY one criticism of folding to the check raise is that IMO it's a weak play. I think it's ok to see a turn and see what develops. Reason being that I DO have position against my opponent, and I could actually have the best hand here. I rarely expect an all in bet here on this turn. It really is hard to say what bet I was to face on the turn... but since I did end up facing an all in bet on the turn and followed with a fold to that bet, in hindsight I played this hand wrong. Good times good times.

quick response:

fold the flop since your hand looks very weak in this situation against another bigstack out of position. risking 25% of your stack in the flop in this hand is to risky.

i would fold in this situation to put my chips in a better spot

The turn is a call for sure. The flop may well be a fold. I often fold to this re-raise. We dont know how much of our draw is even good. The more I think about it, the more I like folding the flop.

First of all, as I usually do suggest when trying to steal with a hand this marginal, raise more pre-flop and try to represent a big PP or AK. With the blinds at 50-100 (150), and with 2 limpers (200), the pot is 350 right there. I'd raise it to 600-800, because I want hands like 109s to get out of the way and think I have a BIG hand. A hand like KJs also has a better chance of winning heads up, especially in position, and raising more can do that.

You also had an early-position limper flat call your raise, and the BB with a big stack do so as well. That screams pocket pairs 22-10's to me first; suited connectors like 109 or QJ also scream out as well (especially from the bigger stack; he's betting 400 from out of position trying to hit a homerun) because they are hands that can thrive in multiway pots 3 or more.

Here is my next suggestion. I don't even want to even say this because I know how much people love to throw tin foil hats on this forum at anything non-conventional about poker and tell each other how much people are wrong. I know I'm gonna get ridiculed for even suggesting it:

Check the flop.

I got this idea from Phil Gordon, who says that sometimes if you are up against C/R, it can be correct to check. The reason why I suggest it here is because if you have this knowledge (as you stated below):



I'd try to disappoint them and check behind and make them pay for trying to C/R (or C/R bluff). They have a feeling that you as an aggressive player will probably continuation bet 70%-85% on hands raised from late position. And remember, you raised because you tried to steal some blinds and calls pre-flop with a marginal hand. It's not a hand I'd want to play a big pot with, and neither did you:



You don't want to get involved with a huge pot with just a pair of Kings, Jack kicker on a dangerous board with 3-way action. With your gutshot straight draw (that might not even be good vs AJ, which players do have a tendency to play weakish) and backdoor flush draw, you have a hand that free cards help, not hurt.

When I check and see a turn, I often think to myself, "What cards help me and what cards make it easier to call a bet of the pot?". If he jams the turn (or if the other player does, like say he had 44 and hit his third 4 on the turn) and bets REALLY big, then you can safely throw away your top pair UNLESS:

If a K comes on the turn, K8-lower and 109 have now become counterfeited, and you have 6 outs versus 10's full of Kings.

If a club comes, you can call a bet on the turn and have outs to the flush, unless it is the 9 , where in that case you might be drawing to a one outer, the Q , if the villian has quad 9's.

If a J comes on the turn, it's not a great card, but we can still call a bet and boat up on the river if we are beat by a set of 9's or 10's, or a straight.

If an Ace comes on the turn, especially the A , re-raise and jam all-in UNLESS the other player from EP does so (because he probably has an Ace). The Q is a good card, too.

With a pair of Kings and a straight flush draw, you can potentially semi-bluff out stronger hands (including a set, which would bet out) that might fold because they might have feared that the free card (like the Qc) that they just gave you, just made a straight with AJ (which is a hand the BB could definitely put you on) and have tons of outs if called by two pair (including the other Aces and Queens which give you a bigger two pair). The Ace is also a great scare card versus 109, who might fear that you have AK.

You can always also induce a stone cold bluff, but I doubt it here because there are too many players in this pot.

Now, I do bet here most of the time.......about 90%. BUT if I am C/R when I do, I feel as if I have to fold it because I am beat 90% of the time unless I am up against a complete donk.

If a player, especially one with chips, calls a bet out of position, then check-raises me when I just have top pair (especially with NOT top kicker) on a semi-dangerous board.....I have to lay it down unless it is short handed or up against a maniac. Especially such a smallish re-raise of just 1500 (he should have re-bet the pot because his hand is VERY vulnerable, about 3500-4K).

This play can work. I did it once before during a live tournament where I saw a player who would ALWAYS attempt a C/R with his monsters. I once raised from late position with the A 4 . The C/R called from the BB. Flop 6 8 2 . He checks, and I would usually most of the time semi-bluff here, especially against a tight player, but I checked behind. Turn J . He bet the pot, I jammed, and since he was somewhat pot committed, he called with the 8 8 for a set. He failed to boat up and I won a pot that helped me win the tournament.

What he said after the hand was done, "Man, you are so aggressive, I figured that you would bet out 2 spades there".

And whenever you can do something your opponents wouldn't expect you to do and get there, your opponents make a mistake you can gain from.

Let the ridiculing begin!

Not a bad post. You explained yourself very well. I can understand the benefits of checking the flop as well. Again though, there are negatives to checking too.

Benefits: Everything you mentioned. I get to see a free card on a scary board. If a club comes, I can see the river for cheap against a bet into the small pot. The turn may counterfeit a small 2 pair like the 9 10 if my hand improves. AND, I can't be check raised if I don't bet this flop.

Negatives: I gain no new information if I check behind my opponents. It's a 3 way pot, and I do need to protect my hand if it is the best. If I check this flop, I may have missed an oppurtunity to take down the pot with a bet right then and there.

Although I enjoyed what you had to say about this situation. It's refreshing to look at hands at different angles and discuss different strategies. I don't think you'll get ridiculed so much.

What was it that Phil Gordon had to say? Does he have an article on the subject?

That's the only non benefit from not betting, especially online where your betting and how one reacts to it IS your only way of getting information. If you have them beat, you will feel like shi*t if you let them get there.

The only reason why I suggested checking is because you have KJ. If you had AK, you probably would have raised more with your premium hand and then you MUST bet the flop if you hit.



He has a page on it in his book, "The Little Green Book", under the player tendencies section I believe, where he provides a counter strategy for every type of move (if a player is a maniac, then I will raise and push good hands more preflop; if a player bets too little on the flop - I will play more and chase draws more frequently; if a player check-raises - I will check behind more; if a player is weak in his blind - I will raise with any 2 cards, etc.)

Plus I will echo some DN and Juanda thoughts.......small pots are easier to win and get away from, so by checking you keep the pot small, also enabling you to possibly outplay your opponent on later streets.

If I play a big pot, I want to have a big hand.

If you are playing hands like KJ with such a small raise in this situation you have to be ready to dump it as soon as someone shows strength. You don't want multiple callers. Your continuation bet on that board with that many players in the pot is a feeler, once he re-raised, get out. He has a big hand and wants any draws to go away. If you were heads up then I would look at it as more of a "move" and may consider calling the re-raise, but 4 handed, unlikely he is making a move on this pot.