$20 NL hold em tourny on Stars

PokerStars Game #5063849944: Tournament #25428817, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2006/05/26 - 23:34:30 (ET)
Table '25428817 15' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1 (2090 in chips)
Seat 2 (4150 in chips)
Seat 3 (3090 in chips)
Seat 4 - HERO (2275 in chips)
Seat 5 (1280 in chips)
Seat 6 (2830 in chips)
Seat 7 (3315 in chips)
Seat 8 (4053 in chips)
Seat 9: VILLAIN (2715 in chips)
Seat 3: posts small blind 75
HERO: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [Js Jc]
Seat 5 folds
Seat 6 calls 150
Seat 7 folds
Seat 8 folds
VILLAIN raises 300 to 450
Seat 1 folds
Seat 2 folds
Seat 3 folds
HERO calls 300
Seat 6 folds

No reads on the villain.
Also this isnt what happened in the actual hand...In the actual hand i pushed all in, which i think is the right play here given my chip stack, but I wonder what IF i smooth called..

*** FLOP *** [2s Td 2d]
Am i going broke on this flop??
POT: 1125

Villain had AA

edit: is this a little more clear?

Im so confused I just got a headache.

I dont see whats so confusing.

I just put in a side note that in the ACTUAL hand i pushed all in preflop but i was just wondering, hypothetically, what IF i just smooth called...am i going broke on this flop anyway??

yes.

the only hand you're worried about is pocket 10s and the chance that he flopped the boat is soooooo low.

He'd have to be one incredibly tight rock for you to let go of JJ on this flop (cuz you'd assume he had aces or Kings)

You were destined to go broke here. You did the best you could and unfortunately the cards poo poo'd you here =(

Yeah, this is fine. If villian did something obvious like LRRing or min-raising on the flop, you'd have a chance. As it is, you're fuc.ked

i might try to check call check call all the way. making it as cheap as possible but yeah your goin broke.

I am very confused here. Why would we be going broke with a lowly pair of jacks on that board?

Our opponent in a $20 tourney (as opposed to a $5) raised pre-flop after a limper, which to me would indicate he must have something good (ie. a large pocket pair, Ace king, possibly ace queen, etc.). Sure, our jacks are higher than any card on the board, but why would we need to call/push here with our holdings that are most likely beat here? Also, why would we push pre-flop with our jacks? Baffling hand to say the least, but not for the reasons you gave IMO...

You're not worried about AA, KK, QQ? The guy's raising after an ep limp...how many hands do you think he has?



You bet 800 on the flop (leaving you with 1000), do you still think you're winning if you get raised or smooth-called? At this point, he's more likely to have AA, KK, QQ than AdKd, AdQd. You've called a pf raise, and then led into the pf raiser...you've screamed to him you're strong...if he raises you you MUST know that you are beat, and you can get out without going broke.



No you weren't...the pf push was entirely unnecessary and if you had just called pf you could have got away from this....even a bet of 500-600 would have told you what you needed to know on the flop....you get out of the hand with 1000-1200 chips, you're the SB and then don't have to worry about blinds for 8 more hands.


JJ - most over-rated and over-played hand in Hold'em...stop thinking it's the cat's ***.

if there was a raise then a reraise pf then id be more inclined to lay down JJ here, however, his raise after a limper does not necessarily mean he has to have premium pockets here. He can make that same raise with 88+, AK, AQ, maybe even AJ...As it stands pf there are only 3 hands pf that beat me and there is about 825 in the pot, which would increase my stack about 36%. I always try to avoid going broke with one pair and obviously if i had a larger stack id have more options but right now my M is about 10, so i have to be a lot more aggressive, that and being out of position made me lean towards pushing..

Lets say that i do just smooth call, leaving me with 1825. Pot: 1125. Then I lead out for about 600-800 here and he SMOOTH CALLS. What do i do if a blank comes on the turn? Do i check/fold? Ive already invested over half my stack up till this point, so im pretty much pot commited. If he reraises all in on the flop then i think i may be able to lay this down but still its a dirty feeling, id have like 1000 chips left, and M of about 4 (and i HATE bein that short stacked)...

Also, lets say if I were IN POSITION and smooth call with the jacks. If he leads out with a standard continuation-type bet, whats my action? Smooth call the flop bet and evaluate on the turn?

Hence ONE of the problems with how you played the hand...

huh?? umm...thats not how i played the hand. I think you need to read my original post more carefully and look at the chip stacks. As i said above i pushed on him because of situations like this which may pot commit me anyway.

Let me ask you how you would play this, with this kind of stack? Obviously you're not going to fold pf, or are you lol?? I think you'd probably smooth call here. Then the flop comes out T22, what now? Are you going to check/fold?? Thats sort of weak...As i said if you lead out for like 800 here, leaving you with 1025, you're pretty much commited. Then when he pushes all in you're almost getting 3-1 now to call. Or if you check and he bets out something like 500-600, which looks like a standard continuation bet, then you're probably going to check raise all in on that flop.

Look, im not the type of player that overplays JJ pf but given the situation i dunno if there was much of an option, except for maybe what shpaget said, leaving me with 1000-1200 chips..

You are close to being short stacked. No chance you don't lose your chips on this hand. If you don't lose your chips here, you are playing too tight IMO. Too many times you will be facing less than premium hands with that raise. I do agree that you played it right by pushing though. That's tournament poker. You lose, you win some, but you HAVE to accumulate chips.

Man you sure don't get it do you. I'll be blunt - sorry if this might offend:

Pushing pre-flop with jacks is absolutely the incorrect way to play it.
Had you not pushed pre-flop, but rather smooth-called as you have hypothesized, going broke on that flop is absolutely incorrect.

Do I need to be any clearer? Stop thinking pocket jacks are the equivalent of a full house man, and you will do much better. Heck, change your hand to aces with the smooth-call, and you still may be incorrect to go broke there.

So what...I HATE going to work every morning, but I still do it.

It's better than the alternative.

Same in your situation...1200 chips is better than none.

I'd rather find out I'm beat and play with an M of 5 than just throw caution to the wind and hope my 2 outer hits.

Okay, maybe the post got edited so I can't see the turn and the river but on a flop of 10 2 2, explain to me again how you don't go broke here? Let me reiterate, you are very close to being short stacked, you either need to accumulate chips or move on to the next tourney. Anyone that reads the raise as only hands that are ahead of you are just incorrect IMO. I push preflop, looking to increase my stack by 25% and if I get called by AK I am willing to race at this stage anyway. But many times they have raised with non-premium hands, they fold and I have more chips. And if they do have A's or K's, so be it. BTW, just because people play J's incorrectly often doesn't make the 4th best starting hand overrated.


Sorry, but I totally disagree with this. Are you implying that someone in a $20 tourney is going to not be a fish? And honestly I think good players make this play holding a lot less. What is your first thought on an EP limper? Small pockets right? Why not isolate on him so when the board comes big he is going to have to dump his Pocket 5's?

I'm not saying that there aren't fish at the $20 level, I am saying that there are an abundance of fish at the $5 level, meaning that the play is certainly different between the two levels in an overall sense. There are fish at every level.

The problem with holdings like jacks is that any hands that call your pre-flop push are either going to be in a race against you, or you are dominated. Very little hands will you be a big favorite against here. Sure, you may get everyone to fold, increasing your chip stack, and sure, you may win some of the times that you were dominated or in a race against, but when you do the math on all of the various outcomes, im not sure it is a very high +EV move there with a limper and a raiser.

Guys like Copernicus (and lately Actuary that poser) can give you a large rundown of the math if needed (if you ask them nicely), and even though I don't know for certain what the math is, I don't think it is nearly as great as you may think.

Only 3 hands I am worried about. You think 8's, 9's, 10's don't call here? I am willing to race at this juncture so bring on AK and AQ. Will I be wrong sometimes? Absolutely. But based on the betting here, I would put great odds on me being right more than I am wrong. And I would say at the $20 level there are at least 80% fish. Can there possibly be more at the $5?

Wow. No respect for those players who are willing to gamble $20 a tourney...80% seems way high to me at that level.

For the $5 level, my personal feelings are about 92% fish...lol

Look - you've got to put him on a range of hands...AA, KK, QQ, AKs are part of that range...it depends on how many other hands you think he may have (I don't think it's that many others, really), but here's the problem with pushing...

You're rarely getting called by a hand you beat...and you're certainly not making a better hand fold.

So, all you're doing is making the very hands you want to go against (like 88, 99) fold....and beyond AK and MAYBE AQ, you're not beating any hands that do call (and those are true coin flips...my favourite)...and you're giving those cards exactly what they want/need...5 cards to hit their hand.

Remember, you don't know the flop is T22 at this time....so forget about this flop in assessing this preflop move. Of the limited range of hands that raise an EP limper from MP, which of THOSE hands will call your all-in? And how many of those dominate you, vs. how many you dominate vs. the coin flips?

Let's say 88+ and AJ+...and that may be generous...88-TT and AJ will call a lot here, not raise...but how many of THOSE call your all-in? This is entirely read dependent and if you've played with the guy and seen him to be loose you can change your mentality here, but with no reads, in a $20 tourney (rather than $2), I think you need to give him some credit and shrink the range.

If the guy's been psychotic my play may be different (or maybe not), but generally, I call here with no reads...I have folded to the right kind of player in this situation.

Now, the flop comes T22 two diamonds.

Lead 600...if he calls, then you can assess the turn...if he raises you, do you think he has AK or 88? Sure, he could have AdKd or AdQd, but those 2 hands are far outweighed by the 6 AA, 6 KK, 6 QQ and 3 TT hands that his raise also likely means.

The fact is, you've called his pf raise, and then led into him - you are screaming strength...if he raises he's either got the biggest balls west of the Mississippi, or you're beat.

So, you fold, and still have 1200 chips left...desirable? No, but you're still alive, AND, SB next hand aside, you don't have to put money in the pot for 8 hands.

So were gonna put in more than half our stack and fold an overpair? Are you out of your mind?

There is absolutely no way I'm not going broke here..Unless we have some sort of read that Villain is super tight, why can't he be raising with A10, AJ, KQ, etc?..I don't know the payout structure (if this was a MTT or what), but I like to accumulate chips and not just survive...

Someone said something about were only getting called by hands better than ours and hands that are worse are folding...Well thats fine, I'm totally ok with someone folding here after I jam...And most of the time, I feel like were gonna be racing here against AK or AQ, I'll take the better side of a coin flip here...I just don't see how you can advocate any line that doesn't go broke here

Fold preflop- Ummm no
Jam Preflop- We get called and go broke
Smooth call preflop- We lead the flop and get re raised and fold? After putting in more than half of our stack..Okk thats, not weak tight at all

Smooth Call and Check a flop- Lets ourselves get outplayed by AK and AQ when he makes a cont. bet..

Yep, all the chips are goin in and Im gettin in the next tournament

Nope...I simply know when I'm beat, and know how to find out. The fact is, I have won/cashed high in many tournaments where I've done this exact thing...where if I had simply thrown in the rest of my chips, simply because I'd already thrown in half my chips, I'd have busted out in all of them (or, maybe hit my two outer once).

I rarely use the words "pot committed" as an excuse to throw away the rest of my chips.

I ask one question..."Am.....I.....beat?"


The "go onto the next tournament" excuse gets old too....first, I play mostly live tournaments...so my "next tournament" is the next day...and frankly, I take full advantage of the short stack practice time, along with the time I get to study other players. And online, well, nothing is stopping you from starting another online tourney while your other tourney looks like it's ending with your shortstack becoming precarious...lots of people play more than one MTT at once.

Didn't advocate that here...but with certain reads, yes definitely.
Yeah...that's always my goal in a tournament.
Don't confuse weakness with intelligence...don't confuse strength with stupidity. If you can't play with a short stack you shouldn't be playing...or, better yet, take advantage of the opportunity to learn/practice short stack play.

Never advocated this line.

I am sure I messed up the quotes up here.

If you want to acumulate chips, and you are playing aggressive, there is just no way, without results oriented thinking, that your not going broke w/ JJ here...I absolutely cannot advocate putting in more than half our stack and folding an overpair UNLESS THE GUY IS A ROCK...We have no read on him like that, so I'm getting it all in here...

I play short stack well actually, but I don't look for spots to put myself as a shortstack like I would if I chose the b/f line like you advocate

To OP: Next time, don't post results..I think that has skewed our responses a bit

Throwem is one smart guy

With an M of 10; I will either push or call after the raise - it would depend on the table. I'm pot committed after that flop so I really don't see any way to get away from the jacks.

Just seems way too tight to fold the jacks to an underflop when you're getting very short stacked.

And Go Bears wins a prize as well. Especially the bolded part. You don't go broke, you ARE too tight.

You're rarely getting called by a hand you beat

Ummm...no. I am including AK, AQ, AJ in hands we beat.

You don't "beat" AK/AQ...you're flipping a coin...and those are the only two "favourable" hands that call you here. If AJ does, great, but I think more often they fold to an all-in pf here....the higher the tourney buy-in, the more this becomes true. Remember, you are also against a stack that barely covers you...you absolutely cripple them if you win.

So, all you're doing is making the very hands you want to go against (like 88, 99) fold

and you're giving those cards exactly what they want/need...5 cards to hit their hand.

Ummm.....no.....and okay, fine....I am short stacked, bring on the coin flip with me as the favorite to double. You're not supposed to go LOOKING for coin flips.

Of the limited range of hands that raise an EP limper from MP, which of THOSE hands will call your all-in? And how many of those dominate you, vs. how many you dominate vs. the coin flips?
A lot. Many more than you would ever think. Ummm 3.....to about 5 or 6....to me being ahead on any coin flip.

What?!?!?!?!? Do you think QK calls your all-in? AT? A9s? AK/AQ...that's it...MAYBE AJ....maybe TT...99/88 would be a stretch....remember, watch his short stack too...what would YOU do in MP with these hands after an EP limp? Call? Raise? Push?


Honesty...what range of hands do you think an M10 stack makes this raise with from MP? You keep saying "a lot"...name the range. What hands does this guy raise with (rather than call after the limper)...and then, if you push pf, which hands does he call off virtually all his chips with.

Both those ranges are smaller than you think.

Let's say 88+ and AJ+...and that may be generous...88-TT and AJ will call a lot here, not raise...but how many of THOSE call your all-in?
Ummm....a lot. You haven't seen this wild fascination with people not being able to lay down these hands? Honestly, you are giving a SB raiser against an EP limper way too much credit.

Umm....I dont' know where you're getting this SB stuff - we're talking a MP raiser against an EP limper with a BB with JJ determining what to do, with the EP limper still to act. Are you really that thrilled with your Jacks here? Talking about "this wild fascination with people not being able to lay down these hands".

I've folded to the right kind of player in this situation.

Really? You think you get a chance to accumulate chips this easy that often? This time I would be wrong but I would be right the majority of the time.

Please explain to me how I accumulate chips when I lose 4/5 times...I didn't say fold here, I said I will fold (and have) with the right read.



Read the hand again...YOU are acting FIRST after the flop...you bet, he raises, if you honestly think you're still winning, go ahead and call...if you think you're losing and just want to happily throw away the rest of your chips, just because you don't like playing a short stack, go ahead...I'd rather be crippled than broke.



The bottom line is, you don't need to go broke here.

*sigh* ....
I am completely aware that jacks are not the godliest of hands...Im not one of those ppl that hit TPTK or have an overpair on the flop and automatically get my money in thinkin im good. But there are situations where escalating blinds and your stack size force your hand. Thats what im tryin to discuss here.



umm who says we actually want to get called anyway? We're out of position on this hand, there are 3 cards that could come out that will complicate our decision making on the flop (Ace, King, Queen)..plus just takin this down right here increases our stack by about 36% which is a big gain

Shpaget, you have admitted you would never make this play here so why do you think you have any idea what type of hands would be raising here and what type of hands would be calling your raise? I have made this play and I can guarantee the range you put the raiser on is way off. And the hands that you have calling your all in are also way off. Just because YOU would only raise with a very limited number of hands doesn't make it true for everybody. I think that is where your thinking is a bit different. 2 things, either the person is a fish looked down at a pair of 8's thought woohoo, raise, then after you reraise all in, decides, I'm not going to be pushed around and calls. Or the raiser is a good player, puts the early limper on a small pocket pair and knows that if the limper doesn't hit a set he wins almost any hand he raises with. This player has a much wider range of hands of which most are not calling you. An early limper does not mean strength so why would a raise of an early limper give you a range of about 4 or 5 hands that you have posted? Honestly, too tight my man, way too tight. Not saying it can't be profitable but.....

Not sure where you got that I said I never make this play.

Anyway, I have an idea because I observe...yeah, I know what I would do (usually)...and I know what the majority of people I play would do, be it live or online, be it a $5 buyin or a $1000 buyin...if this was a $5 buyin I'd likely expand his range...if this were the $20 rebuy home game I play I'd expand the range...if there were deeper stacks involved here I'd be singing a different tune about his range...when he has an M of 10, like you, his range isn't as great as you think...not for that raise...there are a lot of hands he would play but he wouldn't make a 3x bb raise after a limp...he'd call, or he'd push a variety of hands...the range of hands where he actually makes a raise of 15% of his stack is limited, in my experience....he wants action.

Yes, there are always exceptions and I'm not saying every player has the same range, but the average, be it the mean or the median, will likely be very close to the range I've specified. Without reads I'm assuming that average.



I strongly advise never to bet the ranch on that statement....a utg or utg+1 limp (especially on an aggressive table) can certainly mean strength...can often mean the ultimate strength...yeah...it could mean a small pocket pair, or even some kind of suited connector, but give good consideration to AA/KK.

LOL. Come on, give me a little credit. I occasionally make this play myself but I can tell you I limp more often with weaker hands than I play AA KK by limping. Would bet the farm that is true for most people.....actually all....I think all is safe.