Poker Room skin
Weekly NegO
Blinds: t10/t20
10 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t1970
UTG+1: t1360
UTG+2: t1500
MP1: t1440
MP2: t1690
MP3: t1460
CO: t1760
Hero: t1370
SB: t1160
BB: t1290

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is Button with
4 folds, MP2 calls t20 (pot was t30), 2 folds, Hero raises to t100, SB folds, BB calls t80 (pot was t150), MP2 folds.

Flop: (t230, 2 players)
BB bets t100, Hero raises to t300, BB calls t200 (pot was t630).

Turn: (t830, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (t830, 2 players)
BB is all-in t890, Hero ????

I would bet the turn - if he has two pair/set, why is he giving you a free card on the flop and the turn with a flush draw/gut shot out there?

Since you didn't bet the turn, it makes the river much tougher. Any 10 beats you plus he could sense weakness by your check on the turn and be making a play at the pot.

Tough one without any reads on villain, I would hate to go broke with TPTK this early so I would probably fold since you didn't bet the turn.

I agree with the other poster that your turn check is not good.

His push on the river doesn't make any sense. If he had A10, why wouldn't he push the flop? If he had J10, why would he call your flop raise? You played your hand as if you were on a flush draw, now that the flush draw missed, why would he bet so much knowing that you won't call with a busted draw? Why did he lead for 1/2 the pot on the flop and is now pushing?

It is possible that he made a bad flop call with a 10 and got lucky, but it is also quite likely that he has a busted heart draw himself and sensed weakness. Since you are getting 2:1 odds, I think on balance that you should make the call.

66 is a reasonable hand for hte villan to have as well.

Lead into the raiser with trips, smooth call the raise. Check the turn with the intention to check raise and then proceed to peddle what is likely hte nuts on the river.

i think your beat but there is a case for calling. Namely atrocious play in low stakes buy ins.

Raise the flop more, then push the turn.

Nevermind....

preflop was to light to do that..but Raise flop more and bet turn.

then you'll know more on river

Wouldn't have these problems if he knew where his towel was.

I'd have raised another 20 pf and then raised more on the flop and pushed on the turn, as Actuary suggested.

As for how the hand played out, I think that you have to call. On your bad days he is going to have AT, or T whatever, or 66 (and on your worst days 55), but often he'll be there with Ax, AQ, AJ, a counterfeited A6 or a busted flush, or some other random bluff/donk play.

Turn: (t830, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

What?

Why?

Why oh why would you check the turn there??? Baffling.

I'm going to be the first to say it-

I LOVED the turn check. Just because it isn't a play I would normally make with this hand, but it is a play I would make with a flush draw.

Follow the sequence of the hand and you will see why the turn check is so brilliant.

Hero raises on the button behind a limper and gets a caller from the BB. Flop comes ace-high with 2 hearts. Villian fires out a little under 1/2 pot bet. Villians range, right here-medium-strong ace, TT, 66. I doubt villian fires here with a broadway flush draw (I would much more likely checkraise with a 12 outer here, but that is just me) so I think that his range is fairly well defined.

Hero raises to 300. Villian calls. At this point, I think we can eliminate 66 and TT from villians range, and leave him with with medium-strong aces, which all except A10 you have crushed. Villian calls here in order to gain information on later streets.

Turn, villian checks. Read has not changed. Hero checks. Would hero be expected to check an ace that beats the villian right now? Methinks not.

River, Villian jams. He thinks his A9, AJ, AQ is good and is hoping for a call from a weaker hand. Hero calls and shows a very unorthodoxly played AK, and scoops the pot.

In LHE, I do that all the time with A-medium. Not so much in NLHE.

River, Villian jams. He thinks his A9, AJ, AQ is good and is hoping for a call from a weaker hand. Hero calls and shows a very unorthodoxly played AK, and scoops the pot.

Except for the 80% of the time villian has Tx and Hero gave him infinate implied odds on the turn and then paid him off.

FPS is bad enough, encouraging FPS should have some sort of electrode that runs right to your balls to discourage you from doing it.

good luck

You seem to be implying that I would encourage FPS frequently, in fact, it's quite the opposite. Most of the posters who have read my stuff in here previously, as well as the ones that I talk to online, would say that I am about as straightforward with my hands as possible. That is why this play in particular appeals to me so much.

I think implying that Villian has a 10 80% of the time is fairly ludicrous, since this is the NegO and doesn't play like a normal $10 tourney. Villian has flatcalled a 5 Bb raise OOP against a guy who raised behind a limper-unless villian is super lag, he isn't doing this with a hand like Q10o. And if he was, OP would have mentioned it in his post. However, this is very possible with a hand like AQ or AJ, and this seems to be a reasonable line for villian to take.

Also, if the villian has a 10, why is he betting so much on the river? Wouldn't he want to encourage a call from a weak ace or a hand like KK or QQ that Hero could have? Why he would overbet the pot when, from the hero's turn check, he is obviously weak?

Like I said before now, I hate FPS. However, there is a time and a place for it-when villians range is clearly defined and hero has a hand that is almost always ahead and won't get paid off unless he gets a little tricky with it. I feel like this is one of those times.

I think 90% of the time this is a worse ace or a flush draw, and 5% of the time it's Tx, and 5% of the time it's 66. This is very similar to the b/c/b line, which a lot of strong players will use to increase the likelihood of getting a call from a weaker hand or inducing a big bluff from someone who thinks they can steal the pot on the river. This is a very minor FPS sin, imo.

I won't say it's a good play or it's a bad play, it's a EV neutral play on the turn depending on your read and response when a scared card comes on the river. I would call the river.

with a pot at 830 already on the turn, it's a bad play.

it's a big gamble.

if it were done, assuming villain is drawing to his kicker and he is aggressive, then you have to call the river.

it's just something I don't do when pot is already big.

I think the appeal of this play is that there isn't a true scare card on the river. If he hits his 3 outer, whatever, you lost a bunch of chips, but if you are running scared of 3 outers, then you are going to struggle to win tournaments.

aren't hearts scary?

or if villain had Kd/Qd/Jd

I see more jamming these days with very strong hands - pretend to be weak by acting strong and get a call from someone who thinks that you're trying to buy the pot.

I would hate to call OOP with AJ also as most tourney players know that AJ is a trap hand, but I could see savvy players calling with J10 or 10 9 or even 10 7 since this is the "Neg-O".

Two flush draws missed and we showed weakness on the turn. I think we have plenty of evidence to suggest that the villain can be bluffing a healthy percentage of times here on the river. I would very rarely be checking the turn here, but I can see a few good arguments for doing so, and I am definitely not folding this river when I do.


I think the people from General OT and other such forums are allowed to play in the Neg-o, too.

True..depends a lot on who villain was...

You ready for Monday Night in PRIMETIME against the Degenerates? Probably your opponent will be Vatche.

[quote name='gobears' date='Friday, May 26th, 2006, 9:20 AM' post='1101975']
I see more jamming these days with very strong hands - pretend to be weak by acting strong and get a call from someone who thinks that you're trying to buy the pot.

yeah i noticed this too. Did everyone take Matusow to heart when he said the way to win tourney is to flop big hands and bet big because no one folds anymore ?

I think the first 200+16 i played a guy pushed like 2k into a 500 dollar pot when the flop came AKx with two clubs. I had A9 of clubs and ended up calling because i thought he was buying and i had outs and he turns over AK...club came on the river so i won but i just could not fathom someone pushing in 2k with top two. Later i went broke in the same tourney when someone pushed all-in with the nuts straight into another relatively small pot and i had a set.

Nut Peddling FTW i guess.

Matusow is a certified genius. Who would think that someone would be betting large with the (near) nuts??? What a concept...

I'm not a "name" poster. If you want to play it (or MK, or Vick) you are certainly welcome to.


I totally cluttered this thread with FCPHUL stuff, so I'm going to make up for it here.

A blog entry every fan of Matusow should read.

Hi all, glad to see this generated some discussion.

My thinking:
This was in the first orbit of play, I think the fifth or sixth hand. I didn't recognize the name of the Villian or have any reads on him. However, I have recently been working on trying to assign logical hand ranges to players. NegO players (to my unexperienced eyes) seem to generally play pretty well.

PF - raise from the button could have been a bit bigger, and can look like a steal I suppose, but when it's called I assume BB has a hand.

Flop - He leads into me; my assumption here is that he has a pocket pair or a big ace. I'm worried about 66 and TT. So I raise to learn more (again could have been more) and he calls. His call leads me to discard all but 66, TT+, and a big ace. Two hearts I wonder about but I'm not sure it's likely. I feel comfortable but I am wary.

Turn - He checked, which made me think it less likely he had a set, as I had raised twice, wouldn't he want me raise his set again? But I still have a worry about the set, so I check. I appreciate the comments that I should bet here, and I may agree with them. This is probably too tight; I think I'm missing value pretty consistantly with this.

River - The ten makes me discount TT. The all in bet makes me discount 66 as I think he would bet lower for value to get a call or raise. I'm left with a big ace, JJ-KK, and a busted heart flush, all of which I beat except AT. If he has AT, I'm paying him off.

I called. Sorry, results in white.

He had AQ.

the suspense is killing me what did he have ? A10?

Also, as much as I would like to say that I checked the turn representing a flush draw, that wasn't my intention. I did, however, consider how it looked at the river.

I was pretty happy to see a ten on the river, as it made it less likely that villian had AT and TT. I didn't see it as a scare card.