I have a game that I play weekly, For me right now it is really the only game I can get without going to a casino. I play live 8 person Mini tourneys. I use do well at this game. But lately there has been a influx of new players that play any two cards and will chase down to the river, and then get that lucky river card they need. I think I play well, I play position, bet and rasie as I think I should. Many times I bet perflop 2 to 4 times the BB when I think I have the Best hand. Trying to get players off their hands. Most times I get 3 to 4 players that call. (for Empl) I have AKs and position, One of the other hands early position 9 10os an other will have 65d and the 24os. I know that you are not always going to hit the flop, But lets say, the flop comes k 10 5 rainbow. everyone checks to me. I bet pot size or bigger, Because I know the table and I want to get them out. More times then not, If a players hits anypart of their hand I will get a call. (To cut this short), I Bet bet to the river,Because I don't see to much danger on the board It has been check to me, and the turn 7h no real help. The river comes gives the guy with a pair of 5's a 6 to give him two pair and bets my k with a A kicker. I have played this game tight, and I have played it aggressive. I can't find a happy medium with these type of card players, I am try to better my game ,by put in the time and learning the game and the people I play with,I am stumped here. How do defend aganist players like this.

I think it depends on how much you guys start with, blinds and how much you're betting. You have to make these guys pay for they're chasing, put them to the difficult decision. With that AK hand, you should be betting about the size of the pot. On the turn depending on what's out there and if you think you still have the best hand you should basically bet the pot again (depends on how many chips you and your opponent have left). If they suck out, so be it, but if not, then you have a nice chip stack. In tournies like these bet it when you got it, no room to be fancy with chasers.

I play in a game similar to the OP, and I thought the same thing. Then we started keeping stats for a league it turned out I wasn't doing as poorly as I thought. I had the most points last year, while the maniacs who always seemed to catch were no better than 7th.

I would say keep playing solid poker, it's probably not happening as much as you think, it's just that you always remember that 6-7 2 pair hitting on the river. You don't tend to remember the hands where you had the best pair, and they chased to see all 5 cards and then folded to your river bet

there's an incredible amount of variance in these that you will get really flustered.

Just keep betting when you have a good hand.

I don't over bet to push out hands..unless the pot is big.

Manage the pot size with vulnerble hands like TPTK..and psuh hands like twop two pair with uncoordinated boards really hard.


Limp with suited connectors and small pairs and try to hit a big hand.

In the end ,you want to be playing with bad chasers.
It just takes awhile for variance to work out.

I have the impression, though I'm not sure if it's correct, that pocket pairs 88--QQ go way down in value in games like this and should be played passively, hoping to hit a set

You defend by in part playing your tight, aggressive style and in part by joining them in their style. So, play your good hands hard (pre-flop and on the flop) and make them pay for staying in to catch. Plus, look for more speculative hands as well that you can get paid off on. What you call with depends upon how passive they are pre-flop.

If they're mostly calling and not raising and the blinds are relatively low still then: you want to call with all pairs down to 22s (but make them pay if you have a high pay) with a view to flopping a set or folding; suited aces are good - you're looking for the flush or a flush draw that is cheap to call on the flop, although you might be able to bet for value if you hit an ace, depending upon your kicker, given that they will chase with bottom pair; connectors and one gap connectors are good too (suited or otherwise) although I prefer those in later position.

If they're more aggressive pre-flop then those hands are still okay to play, but you'll want to play them in later positions to avoid calling then throwing away the hand to a raise.

In short... if you have a good hand then hit 'em and hit 'em hard, if you have a certain range of speculative hands then try to get in cheap to hit a big flop, and fold the rest.

Once the blinds get larger relative to your stack then things change again, but that's a different story.

But lately there has been a influx of new players that play any two cards and will chase down to the river, and then get that lucky river card they need.

Kill them and get unlucky players to play with.

Oddly, there's a fair amount of luck involved in holdem. Even more oddly there's even more luck in tourmanets. The guys at the final table of the WSOP every year, they really *are* the luckiest guys in the tournament that year, not the best players.

good luck.

Are they the type of players to be calling LARGE pre-flop raises/pushes? 2-4X BB sometimes isnt nearly enough to whittle the field with your vulnerable holdings (ie. pocket aces, kings, etc.) Got a bunch of limpers and the action is to you - push. First into the pot - big raise.

you could just play kill phil against them.

Ya, They will call large PF bets and raises. I remeber having AA's I was 2 behind the button, I planned to check raise,but didn't get the chance, sm blind Checks, BB goes all in, bb+2 calls, Im thinking pay day. I call. Everyone else folds.We turn over are cards, BB pushed all in with pocket 2's ,BB+2 Called With 910s, and then me with My AA's. I can see the BB playing the 2's Agressively,trying to push everyone out., but BB+2 (In My Opinion) made a bad call. This was the 2nd hand of the tourney. Needless to say my AA's got cracked, with a flush on the flop.BB+2 won a huge pot. and to this day I bet he thinks he made a good call,It's not that these are bad players that I am playing everyweek, I think they don't understand the value of a starting hand, and per flop beting. I can't imagian the BB+2 with his 910s thought that he was win perflop.

I want to educate them , But I have a friend that tries and educate players at the table and I hate that, because he sounds so condesending.

It is generally less than optimal strategy to instruct one's opponents.

Helping your opponents to become better players in the middle of a tourney is -EV

Educating them isn't profitable, unless you want to make them better players so that it improves your play more too. But believe me, if they don't want to learn then you won't be able to educate them and it's not worth the effort trying, failing and spoiling the social atmosphere.

Your friend will come across as condescending and ignorant for trying to improve them. And he'll probably be wrong half the time. I guess that he only tries to educate them after he's had a beat beat?

Your friend will come across as condescending and ignorant for trying to improve them. And he'll probably be wrong half the time. I guess that he only tries to educate them after he's had a beat beat?
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you are right , He comes off very condesending and more like a wineing little B*&^H. He playes most low limit 2/4 cash games holdem and High low Omaha, and the players he plays with make is a showdown game, everyone in every hand, I played it for a while. That type of game was very hard (for Me aleast)to win at consitantly.

Discussing a hand is normally okay if the other person wants to, but 'educating' after a beat is normally just whining that makes the educator look like a d1ck, a bad loser, and a poor poker player. Or Phil Hellmuth jnr without the sponsorship deals.



If you're playing Hold 'Em like that then you want to play hands that do well multi-way. If you play only good starting hands in an Omaha h-l game like that and nut peddle aggressively then you should beat it easily.

The following discussion took place at a tourney I play. After hearing this, I don't think I'd ever bother trying to educate anyone else. It's not about the same thing for those players:

Player A: "Yeah, but it was a bad call, you'd lay that down if you wanted to become a better poker player."

Player B: "I'm not trying to become a better player, I'm just trying to beat all of you."

Words to live by.