If you dont know I would like to share that I am a combat veteran who served in OIF...

And while I was in Iraq aka mesopotamia between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers I really began to think about religion and god in general...

And let me tell you there is no justice in who dies and who doesnt... God will not bring your soldier back...god will not bring your enemys friends back... how many people did the terrorists kill on 9/11 3000? my unit killed 7-12k in Iraq the first night (multiple launch rocket systems) and let me tell you those people prayed just like everyone else... "If god be for us, then who can be against us?"

I just want a discussion into how it is possible to believe in something that has no explanation at all...that was founded on a story that was handed down for generations before it was written? God doesnt help anyone win a game or get drafted higher. or win an emmy but thats all you hear...thank you jesus (god)

so where is god when you live and your friend gets shot and he prays everyday and I have my doubts... this is my question to you... are you any more or less a person if you dont believe in "god"

where is the justice... dont take this lightly...but it has merit that only the good die young... I may be rambling here...but I can tell you if there is no justice from "someone you love" who shows no love back? were the people in NO any less religious than those in whichita kansas?

Just from a war veteran I can tell you I have seen far too many things to make me have faith anymore

the OP is being objective. you aren't.

This means absolutely nothing...except for the fact that if you want to see God, you will. That's why this next quote applies to you:



But really, those who don't believe on blind faith will never believe at all. There are no miracles in life...nothing that cannot be explained through science and rational thought.

I don't think anyone here is wrong. If you want to see God, good for you. If you don't believe in God, that's fine too. Logic and religion have no place trying to convince one another to switch sides.

well it's a waste of time to try to switch the opinion of anyone who posts in this forum, but looking at the broader picture the debate is of critical importance for humanity.

Regardless of what you personally believe...religion is a source of hope for billions across the globe. Think we'll be better off if that's gone?

Why?

if you're talking about fundamentalism, absolutely. all it's doing now is sustaining social boundaries and rampant anti-intellectualism. it is time we outgrew our need for it.

No, it's not. Just live and let live and when you die what will be will be. I think this statement shows exactly how desperate atheists, or at least some, how much they truly need to disprove God to be at peace with... what? I don't know what the problem is, but I meet atheists everyday and say , "Fine, live your life", and go on my merry way, and this is what there sentiments are? Critical importance for humanity? Realize this- science, for all it's misconceptions does get this right- we are not going to be forever, the earth was not built to last, there will be an end to this. Humanity is doomed anyway, whether you believe in a supreme creator or not.

i don't care about disproving god - i'm agnostic. i care that specific fundamentalist belief of any kind is ultimately detrimental to humanity and needs to go. the sooner the better.



the only reason the earth is necessarily finite is because the sun will go red giant 4 billion years from now. otherwise global catastrophies are potentially avoidable if technology progresses enough, and we can certainly learn to live completely off of renewable resources IF we work together. currently we aren't, and religious fundamentalism and religious anti-intellectualism are big parts of why we aren't (although not the only reasons).

That tired cliche is a cop-out. How does he work in mysterious ways? Why is he working in mysterious ways? Is there any point to these mysterious ways?

My guess is that you can't come up with a legit reason as to why he works in mysterious ways. And that's OPs point. That there is no point, and the god as described in the bible is just a myth.





Of course. It's also the reason why there is so much unwarranted hatred in the world. Religion does way more harm than good.

You think people have to be told a fairy tale to have hope? I have more confidence in the human race than that.

That's a lot to lay at the feet of religion; especially when it's provided a lot of positives to the planet as well.

Yeah. Like when god created it.

like what specifically? yeah a lot of humanitarian relief has been done in the name of religion, but that's just a drop in the bucket compared to the immense amount of historical carnage and social/intellectual stagnation it has caused and continues to perpetuate.

Well there was a really good comment that the world would not be better off without religion... 95% of the world believes in one form of higher being than another...


My contention is this... Is there not more evidence of a lack of God...than there is proof that he exists?

The phrase the Lord works in mysterious ways... Well that may be true, that is why its called 'faith'...but my premise for the arguement is that point exactly...in what way does he act? Praying everyday didnt help my Aunt from having her son run over by a car... If there is a God, then why do so many bad things happen to good people?

If you believe so strongly, and in your heart you know its true...and you want something to happen... you will create that situation in your head... if something bad "ALMOST" happens you can easily say God saved me... because you have it so wrapped up in your mind that he/it does exist...

What makes Christians more right than a Buddhist? Or a Jew? Or a Muslim?

What makes our God more powerful than there God? Jews were religious and look what happend to them? Muslims were religious and look what happend to them during the Crusades...past and the present Crusade?

Im not talking evolution or mutation... I just want to know if there is a God or not? If GOD created the world then how come primates knew nothing of him? The story of a Savior was in existance 2000 years before christ... I dont know... I guess all i need is CNN to tell me theres a GOD and I will listen (that was to lighten the mood)

Thoughts?




Well said sir... well said... at what cost do we provide that service?

I am not going to say the world would be better without religion... I think it provides some with morals...and pushes others to do good deeds... but what exactly are we believing in...a story...well so are scientologists..jews...muslims...buddhists..hindus...etc...well what 'story' is right?

None of them.

I had to laugh the other day..I was driving to a meeting with a colleague and he had Sean Hannity on and it was the first time I had heard him. His reputation is as a God-fearing humanitarian type. Some guy calls up saying he believes in Louis Farrakhan and all of his bizarre beliefs (mothership, aliens and so on). Hannity basically ridicules him ....Ha Ha Ha, mothership, teleportation...THEY DONT EXIST! I just felt like screaming back Ha Ha Ha resurrection, transubstantiation...THEY DONT EXIST!

well said... and i know... im glad you agree... but i must admit its tough being a black sheep

Mister B, you ask very good questions...

From what I see around me, I've never had a problem with there being a "God" but I have had a lot of problems with whether God really desires a personal relationship with me which is a basis of many Christian teachings. Also, I have wondered about the power of prayer.

My own opinion is that God doesn't intervene very often - if God continually intervened, then we would have no free will and most of the World's problems are caused by people exercising their free will. Of course there are also natural disasters such as tsunamis and earthquakes which cause heavy loss of life and many victims really had no choice of where they lived..I have no answer for that.

God is probably not going to stop the drunk driver from hitting an innocent pedestrian or on a larger scale, those folks in the path of a tsunami.

Does God intervene sometimes? I think God does as there are stories of, for a lack of a better word, "miracles". Of course, the other side of the argument is that it was just luck or happy circumstances..

probably the best response Ive heard yet... thank you... Im not trying to change anyones mind either way...Im just asking questions and would like a civil discussion on this... anyway... think about it all and enjoy your weekend

God intervenes all of the time in the lives of faithful christians, as far as the rest of the world goes, that's satans realm. Biblically, it's that simple. Now, what consitutes a christian is up for debate, and what prayer is is debateable as well, not to mention what Gods role is in answering said prayer.

that's a divisive thing to say, even by fundamentalist christian standards.

Have you ever known me to pander? Biblically, thats the truth. When Jesus was gathering his disciples it talks about how some had excuses for why they couldn't follow, and one was, " I have to go and bury my family. " Jesus response was, " Let the dead bury the dead. " What he is saying is, you have a higher purpose, they are on there own- fate is already sealed. In the account of Lazarus when the rich man died and from Hell saw Lazarus in Paradise he begged God to send him back so he could tell his brothers about this terrible place- pretty selfless thing to do at this point and God could have accomodated him but he didn't. He told him that they have the prophets, they know the teachings- if that's not enough, too bad. Im obviously paraphrasing but you get the point- for all of Gods love he is equally ruthless and nonchalant. I don't waste my time sugarcoating it because he is who he is, and anyone wishing to do as they like, live as they like, to each his own, but it has consequences.

yes and that is why humanity would be better off without fundamentalism. it's not the type of thing that you keep to yourself, and so it necessarily breeds and perpetuates social boundaries. you just felt compelled to insult the 2/3 of the world that doesn't believe in the bible.

You do realize that all you do is prove the Bible? God said that the people would eventually reject him and he would eventually have to destroy the earth and humanity. How is it an insult? Social boundaries? So sorry God gave you rules to live by... I had nothing to do with it. Crying about it will not help you, and will not take away from the reality of life here and the Afterlife.

Something interesting that Matt would never state out loud because for all his pomp he lacked real knowledge, is that Jesus clearly stated that he did not come to bring peace but rather division, son against the father, mother against the daughter- true christianity creates a divide, between believers and unbelievers in this life but so much more so in the next, where that divide can no longer be narrowed because it's too late. What is done with that division is the issue- some would say go to war, which Jesus was clearly against and any true christian would be as well. Some would say stand on street corners and berate passerbys- what for? They just look foolish. No, you " Go into all of the world and preach the gospel. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not is damned. " That scripture puts it so simply and it takes the onus off of me, even though at times the things I say come across as judgemental. They are what they are, and I suppose you could shoot the messenger but then who is killing over religion at that point?

its really interesting to hear you speak for me lois. funny how just like your lack of understanding of the bible you fail to understand me. When you feel like being up to date with anything let me know

you have to realize that most of the world will never believe what you believe no matter what, so in most public situations your fundamentalist christian rhetoric is more likely to inflame than convert. look at what pat robertson's comments have done for the christian public image - set it back a few years i'd say. when you say things like non-christians are the devil's territory you are just inciting discord, as well as giving your critics ammo.

Look at the chaos currently going on throughout the world in places that are not predominitely christian. God is looking the other way or he's angry, he most definitely is not helping.

Matt already tried to convert with the smooth and the easy- didn't work, and I am not that guy. I am about truth, and only that. Anything else is a waste of time- if I don't bother to get it right I might as well just live it up. There is no halfway with God.






I know you because I know your type. Up to date? God doesn't change, the deceptions just get smoother. Your caught up in it. Nothing I can do.





Oh. and just to put this out there, Pat Robertson is not a christian.

Loismustdie,

Wow. You are ****ing crazy.

"So Adam and Eve were running around in the garden of eden with a ****ing T-rex"
-Tony Soprano (heathen extraodinaire)

Thank you for your service

Col Jim Shoenhard, USAF

Thank you both.

On a slightly side note...

wasn't the quote, "There are no atheists in fox holes" brought around during the WWI era?

Or was that quote from the Civil war?

Regardless, I think it's an interesting thought.

- Jordan

I was thinking about that today- I am not sure when it came about.

And arabs that don't believe in 72 virgins dont blow themselves up.

?

Nevermind, I think I just misunderstood the quote at first. I thought it meant that only people who believed in heaven would go in the foxholes. I know see that it means that once in, atheisists would begin their god fearing....I think.

actually, in my experience, the opposite came about. I was a god fearing man, and then the war took place, and thats when the questions started mounting.

That may be one reason for the (absurd) quote, but I think a main one is that a lot of people like to cling to the thought that believing in god makes someone stronger or have more will power etc.
So I think a lot of people would like to think that doing something like fighting for our country or being president requires faith.
Or it could just be saying that atheists are all liberal ultrapacifist hippies who would never set foot into a foxhole. Who knows.

I don't understand why you are correlating atheism and liberals. If anything, democrats tie into the teachings of Jesus more so than republicans.

God does empower people that believe He can. I've seen it first hand and before I ever witnessed it, I was skeptical. It really is a powerful thing to see someone healed, or be healed yourself. It's beyong explanation and something I can't comprehend myself.

- Jordan

The population of atheists is clearly disproportionately liberal, especially socially.
That democrats tie into the teachings of jesus has nothing to do with anything...

I do think that faith can inspire certain people, but I also think that there are plenty of aethists that don't need that mental cruch for inspiration. Also, I think it works the other way for both believers and non-believers.

ANd I do believe in spiritual healing to a certain extent. Though I think it has to do with the individuals on mindset and energy - and is strongly correlated to theoretical physics that we don't yet understand - and not god.

No way it's God. As much as Jordans belief is based on emotion or feeling- so are yours.

You're right, there's no way God selectively heals some and not others...wait, here comes that divine, to big/tricky for our feeble minds master plan thing again.

And I was not disagreeing with what Jordan said. Positive feelings and good energy/vibes (which can be brought on by a strong belief in faith as well as other factors), are proven to help heal sick people. I don't believe that this is the work of god - and I don't think Jordan was getting at that - but rather the energy that surrounds the sick individual, be it emotions, pure thought, outside thought, or even other energy sources such as magnetic fields or sound waves.

I think personally that it is all in the mind, your brain has the power to do amazing things, and can be wooed enough by faith, energy, whatever you truly believe to fix not only your body, but spirit as well... Someone is definitely right in this topic, the question is who?

Umm, Jordan was talking about God. Specifically. Reread his post.

Way to try to slam me for a completely irrelevant part of my post.

Couldve been worse...

What else would he do?
Make a logically coherent point?
ROFLWTF?

Quite frankly, I seriously doubt your ability to comprehend and develop analysis on any sort of line of thinking.

I will excercise my right to ignore you.

ok... it was supposed to be a discussion

Hot Bacon is a nincompoop. No disrespect or nothing.

meh if thats how you feel... then maybe we should discuss the issues at hand then... why is Hot Bacon a ...'nincompoop'? Just out of curiosity?

Read his posts. End of story.