You are playing Omaha H/L in the big game and are dealt Q-Q-10-9 doublesuited on the button. The first player in raises and gets three callers. You also call on the button. The big blind re-raises and all players call.

The flop comes A K Q and you don't flop a front door or back door flush draw.

The big blind bets out, the first limper raises, the second limper re-raises, and the player in the cut off seat re-raises. There is one bet left as you are playing with five bets per street. What would you do?

I fold. Maybe even before the action gets to me.
"Open Farrell" was it called?? lol
You're dodging cards all over the place, and may already
be drawing to one out...It's not worth it.

Is fold pre-flop not an option??

Yeah agree, there is only a back door low draw available so there obviously is someone that allready has a straight. Someone else also probably has a flush draw. The flush and straight isn't really a problem since we still need to fill up to win the high. But someone probably has a set of kings or aces with the pot beeing three bet before the flop so we probably only have the last queen as an out.

So I say we have one out: Fold

If anyone can find a call or a cap I'd love to know how

I think a re-raise is better than folding pre-flop...lol

I think u fold here because many of your outs (to hit the boat) are probably in the other players hands. Plus there are many possibilties that other people may hit a bigger boat.

I agree.fold

*********Changed this answer****

This is a good call pre-flop with so many opponents (most likely with low-oriented hands). You hope for a high flop and plan to drop the hand if you don't get it.

Post-flop, you got your high flop, but it's bottom set on a very coordinated board. With this much action, I toss it without much thought. If I called, I really would have no idea what card to root for to come on the turn short of the case Queen. Even if I made a straight I'd likely be splitting.

How can you not fold here? Obvious flush draw, probable made straight, and likely trip kings or aces means you're drawing to the case queen, if it's still in the deck. But if you're psychic and feel like that queen is coming, go ahead and cap it. Reasoning for capping being the second choice above calling is that calling shows weakness and basically gives away your hand as trip Qs, and it's going to be capped anyways on the way back so might as well do it yourself.

Fold - you're drawing to one out.

And on a really good day, you'll turn your queen and someone will river their fourth King.


In fact, I have a hard time fathoming what hands these other four could have to go bet-raise-3bet-4bet...except perhaps straigth, flush draw, set, set.

I can't see the fourth guy 4-betting with just TJ....although, it's quite possible that a straight here is a favourite because everyone has each other's outs...a straight needs to dodge a few spades (and he hopes he's against a couple flush draws), and hope the final two cards don't pair each other.

Anyway...I've read somewhere that bottom set in Omaha is about as valuable as a snotburger.

Seems like an easy fold, but why is this hand posted then?

We're getting at worst 7:1 (but for at most 4 outs and at worst zero!)

Are we all missing something?

Is it for some reason clear no one has AAxy (even if yes, what about KK?)
Is this something in which we can safely represent the flush if it hits and get JTxy out?

Everyone who says fold is NOT missing something. Even though it will take runner-runner, we could be playing for only half the pot. Highly unlikely against all those opponents that we have the best hand right now, meaning we are drawing to one out against a better set, or at best trying to pair the board so we make our UNDERFULL. This is a no-win situation, so get out while the gettin's good.

I don't know if you can call 1 bet here let alone 4. What are you looking to hit, a queen or 3 of jacks. That's 4 outs. If one of the jacks comes it's very probable that there will be a split pot or a 3 flush will be on the board by the river.

i cap because i hate money?

very unlikely, itll take runner-runner for a low to become possible

exactly (didn't I say that???) - but you cant exclude that from happening. With all that action pre-flop, there must be some hands out there like A 2, A 3, etc. that MAY be calling here hoping to get a low draw on the next card (we won't go into why that is good or bad). Any 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 will provide a low draw, which is a fair number of cards...

The only possible scenario I can consider, where you would call (or cap) would be if your opponents' hands looked like this:

AKxx (two spades)
AKxx (two spades)
AKxx (two spades)
2345 (two spades)


The only possible saving grace here is with four willing betters is that you are possibly facing three separate aces, rather than a pair of them in one hand.

And if you're lucky and facing a couple of AK hands...who knows?

I just don't know how you warrant the risk on that hope.

But we have a set, how can we not cap? You guys are all weak tight fearing the monsters in the closet. I say cap it and look to spike a 1 outer.


SW

Easy fold. Bottom set in Omaha is worthless, more so in O/8B.

punch david benyamine in the face because he is french, then fold. simultaneously saying that you learned how to fold under pressure by watching France on the history channel

You're seriously drawing to a Q for the win, and a jack for a tie. I just don't see how a full house would hold up, although it might. I would muck here. There's just too many chances that you'll lose this hand somehow.

the bitterness is strong in this one.

Clear fold

fold.
with that much betting raising, no way. were essentially drawing to one out.

I was going to the fridge for an Old Milwaukee and Chris Ferguson says, "Fold'em"

Fold. You might be beaten by a bigger set, which leads to the possibility of being beaten by a bigger boat, not to mention the flush possibilities that render your 3 Q's virtually useless.

How can you do anything but fold?

BB probably has AA but his range is much wider than that, limper might have a combo draw or KK and maybe JT, second limper probably has JT, and CO even more likely has JT. So each player before you more shows more and more strength and it's progresively more likely you're behind and dead to 4 cards(1 queen and 3 clean jacks) let alone re-draws. I'm no Omaha Hi/Lo expert but anything other than instantly folding seems criminal to me. I'd love to be persuaded to do otherwise, though.

-Andrew

Normally, I would jam with this hand to punish anyone chasing a backdoor low draw (and the lack of a backdoor low draw or a backdoor flush draw affects the value of this hand).

However, you have at least two opponents willing to make it three bets on this flop. The nut flush draw is likely among the hands you are facing and the field is too wide, so you don't have any bluff outs. You're going to have the best hand to win, and you probably will need to show it down. No one will be bluffing here in a multiway pot. The BB and the first player in just need some sort of high hand for a bet and a raise here. To make it three or four bets against players giving you action, you need either the nut flush draw, a set, or a flopped straight (with redraws). Since you have a ten in your hand, it's less likely that you have multiple players here ramming and jamming with the nut straight, and in any case most players would wait until there is a safe card on the turn, unless they have redraws. It is also less likely that multiple players have JT in their hands, since they would often play it in hands like KQJT or AKJT or QJT9 (and might fold hands like A3JT), and you hold cards that make it less likely.

Either someone has a higher set (or AK, meaning that your only boat draw is a running pair) or they possess blockers if you are trying for a boat against a made straight. In either case, you're not in very good shape.

So, I would probably fold, but I'd play if there were fewer people in the hand.

You have a lot of gamble in you.

cuin4years says fold. Now I'm confused. I was originally going to say fold, because drawing to 3 outs for a probable split sucks, and the odds of coolering AA with the case Q are pretty damn low, but that's the same answer as 4years.

In a heads up pot, this probably going to be capped against the right opponent. The hand is probably ahead of the range of hands that the first two players are playing. It's the re-raise and the re-re-raise that are troublesome here and make me want to fold.

These players you're referring to as limpers cold-called raises preflop, right?

So the prefop raiser folds to one bet? What position is he in?

Oh, nevermind. Fold.

I would've folded this hand preflop to a raise and a call. I may play this game too tight, though.

I've reconsidered my answer.

The only thing that makes me think this is a total fold, is the number of people betting this flop, might push the numbers in our favor. Meaning the cards that beat us are probably spread evenly through the 4 other players.

Preflop, all this action in H/L says alot of Ace Duece, Ace Trey hands. Even if there are only two of these, then the Ace set is impossible.

If people are chasing club draw, then there are probably alot of burned clubs here.

The only hand to really worry about is KK. We are behind the made straights, but they will not be able to stand the action if the board pairs. And we have one of the 10s needed for the straight.

With the pot odds, and the chances for a boat to be the winning hand, I think a cap is okay here.

Hey, it's only money.



That was funny

i think most of you play too much online and don't know how fast some players can play in B&M casinos. you shouldn't over look that, or over look the fact that a lot of the players in the big game play some really tricky ways.

obviously, it's a fold but i would probably go into the tank (for just a few seconds) in this game before mucking. calling gives us too much (oh whats the term?) reverse equity? the term where when we boat it is going to cost us more.

folding preflop is a rather silly suggestion if there's any sort of ante in the game.

This is LO8 right? Is this an imaginary situation? What a bunch of degenerated gamblers!

Exactly - especially given the reads that DN has provided us with on the O8 play in that game.

Easy Cap IMO....You have the button, use it.

A raise and 3 calls pre-flop suggests that BB was probably reraising with a premium low hand, and the lack of RR preflop suggests that UTG does not have AA. The one hand I am afraid of here is KK.

Post flop: BB continues, UTG raises his 2 pair or weak flush draw, next 2 reraise their JT, nut flush draw or possibly KK (or bluff with JJ).

When you cap, BB is facing 4 bets cold for a low only draw (or non-nut flush) and probably folds, UTG realises his 2 pair are no good and the other 2 will call. so you likely have a pot of about 33.5 small bets going into the turn with 3 players. Assuming all the aces are dead, you have 4 outs twice and another 3 outs once to scoop if you are against a str8 and a flush draw. So, at worst you are about 3:1 against. When you are faced with the flop situation, capping is offering you about 5.5:1; assume a BB goes in on turn and river and the final odds will be 9:36.5 or about 4:1.

The 2 things that can screw this up is if one of the players have KK, or if they both have JT and it is bet and raised before it gets to you on the turn. However, this is offset at least partially by the chance that neither have the str8 and so they will check the turn to the capper, in which case you can bet and represent the str8. You also have the (likely) split outs of 3 J's.

In O8 games like these, betting is often more about getting rid of players than it is about having the current best hand.

i can't stop thinking about this hand. i've been trying to do the odds but only in my head, especially as it relates if a J comes off on the turn, would KK (without a flush draw) be getting the odds to call what he knows is going to be 5 big bets?

but the more i read cham's response the more sense it makes to me. however, if any of the hands are stronger (BB has nut flush draw and 2-3) we are in need of a few gorgeous cards to come off.

without any redraws (aside from getting half if a J peels off) i still lay it down.

OK, my serious question is, since this is LO8, how could so many players have so many high cards? I have no doubt that someone had AAxx, what could be the possible holdings for the others? What happened to the low cards? How could there be so many reraises?

in the 2 plus 2 forums greenstein defended his check-raise in that one hand daniel spoke of a while back. i think it kind of relates.

anyway i think there could easily be a 2,3 with a weak backdoor flush draw betting here.

Well, I...::gets distracted by avatar::

I think we're essentially drawing to one out that wouldn't be hopeful. There's even a straight flush possibility, which can null our quads. Fold.

Although, it seems a bit too easy, so I'm interested to find out the "answer".

The first bet and raise don't have to be particularly strong hands. The first bet could be a relatively weak hand trying to steal the pot hoping to be up against a bunch of low hands. The first raiser could have something like A34Tds and is trying to knock out people with backdoor flush and backdoor nut low and gutshot straight draws. It's the people making it three and four bets on the flop who are scary since, arguably, a player with the nut straight and no redraws to better hands wouldn't bet that way.

Can we not end this charade already??

This question wasn't even close, in my estimation...
Post an answer, if there is one other than,
"duh, fold"
and lets move on....

lol

There has to be a catch...there has to be...the answer can't be that simple...


Cap it - the action has to mean that either all your opponents have AK or they are all playing in the dark.

So your queens are good.

hehehe

i guess we're all forgetting that we're on the button this hand. all of this action is likely to knock out some of the draws who will have to call one or more bets cold if we cap, and if players want to push their low hands (which might explain the 2 raises preflop) needing runner runner, let them pay us off.

basically, we have to ask if anybody really has us beat RIGHT NOW. the only really likely hands are hands like AA32 and AAKK double suited, and they both have us crushed with a bigger set and maybe a redraw to a flush. also likely is maybe something like AK23 double suited, which we have beat right now.

the key is this: my experience in omaha is that decent players raise preflop with both good low and high hands. so, isn't it most likely that two of the other aces are each in the hands of the two preflop raisers, and doesn't this mean that the chances of being up against a set of aces is reasonably low? if so, the next hand we have to worry about is someone holding KK, or JT which is the (very) mortal nuts on this board. remember also: we have a T, making the nut straight less likely and giving us a redraw to the nut straight.

could we then cap the betting and get the players holding KKxx and JTxx out of the pot? it'd be an ideal scenario to play heads up against someone with something like AK23 even if they have a spade draw, since we'd curently be winning and have only to worry about the flush draw or a very unlikely A or K redraw to beat our set of queens. would someone without a redraw call one or more bets with the nut straight after this much action? i don't know, but that player would know there were many, many ways to lose the hand.

lastly, if we think but aren't sure that we've gotten ourselves heads up against a set of aces and/or a straight, should we fold or plan to make crying calls on two more streets if we don't improve? i think an argument can be made for folding here, but maybe it's not nearly as easy as it looks on its face. maybe capping is the right play and if a flush comes all bets are off for our hand. DN?

easy fold.
best case scenario is somebody has JT.

somebody said you are playing for half the pot. that really doesn't make sense since runner runner low would be needed.

but you are against AA or KK.

Any chance of the answer soon?

Got a feeling we might be (understandably) waiting till after the WSOP.