as a homosexual non-rac1st vegetarian who doesn't physically abuse my children, i am offended.

Sarcasm not overlooked - offended by what?

By the bible, and religion in general, I presume.

This is a terrible topic to talk about in an online forum.

I follow a religion I once read about on Paul Philip's blog...

Apatheism

I don't know if God exists, and I don't really care either. I will live my life as a good person regardless of who may or may not be watching. I put my faith in myself and those around me.

i found tight/aggresiveism.

it's changed my life.

hey speed i like that.

seems like a good way to be

Thanks. It works well for me.[/i]

The bible does not promote physical abuse. Religion aside, it seems biologically obvious that homosexuality is "wrong". Sex with animals also seems wrong, but I'm a Christian, so I'm bound to be intolerant.

There are, literally, thousands of manuscripts, some dating back as far as the second century A.D. that refer to the life and words of Christ. Furthermore, these manuscripts were discovered in vastly different parts of the greater Middle East and Eastern Europe, penned by people who never came into contact with each other, and they agree with a level of accuracy that is statistically impossible were the subject (Jesus) an invented figure. There is, in effect, more credible evidence of the existence of the Man called Jesus, than there is of the existence of George Washington. In a court of law, where two corroborating witnesses are all that is needed to establish the credibility of an event, the existence of Jesus of Nazareth would hold up every day of the week.

Now, whether you believe that He's God or not is between you and Him.

i am not even going to bother to find the passage where physically disciplining your child is condoned. just google it or something.

i'm also not going to spend any energy to start up a homosexuality tangent.

your intolerance spells out your hypocrisy.

Discipline and abuse are different.

Proverbs 23:13-14: "Withold not discipline from the child, for if you strike and punish him with the (reed-like) rod, he will not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."

Proverbs 22:15: "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him."

Proverbs 13:24(AMP): "He who spares his rod (of discipline) hates his son, but he who loves him diligently disciplines and punishes him early."

in all fairness

the word "racist" was censored


see.... "dont be a nazi racist"

becomes "dont be a nazi racist"

I AM A CHRISTIAN!

I have said this before when Christianity topics have popped up and I will say it again. As a Christian it is not my job, or anybody elses job, to try and convince ANYONE that my view is the correct one. I believe what the bible says. I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins. I believe he rose again. And I believe that there will be a rapture. THAT IS MY OPINION AND I AM ENTITLED TO IT. I would not come on here EVER and tell any of you that your opinion is wrong. Friendly disagreements and discussions are fine. But the approach some of you use is horrible. SMASH - I love your posts about limit poker - I enjoy reading them daily. But, you're a jerk. (And yes Christians can voice there opinions and use the word jerk). How dare you belittle someone who believes something you don't. Why in the world do you have so much hatred towards Christians???? Am I hurting you by being a Christian???? You say you derive your morals and ethics internally????? . . . well my friend you need to look a little deeper within yourself if you honestly think you have good morals or ethics - because its obvious from your hateful comments you seriously lack in that department. Get a grip. You're entitled to your opinion and voice it if you wish. But all the hate and sarcasm makes you look like the biggest hypocrite of them all - ethics - yeah right. What if I'm wrong Smash and there is no GOD????????? I live my whole life believing in something, trying everyday to better myself as a person, help others in need, live by and teach my family good morals, treat others with respect. Wow - I am wrong to believe in anything that teaches that. But . . . If I'm right . . . . . . . . . . . . .

The original poster put himself out there to talk to anyone who was interested . . . if you're not who cares . . . I'll put the same offer out there. Email me if you want to talk or even debate about GOD. I won't try to tell you I'm better than you - because I'm not, he's not, no Christian is. The Christian that tells you he's better than you because he believes in GOD is not really a Christian at all. So many of you have such a distorted view of what it actually means to belive in GOD and be a Christian. I feel sorry for you - not because you don't believe - but because of the need you feel to belittle the ones that do.

discipline - Training expected to produce a specific character or pattern of behavior, especially training that produces moral or mental improvement.

abuse - To use wrongly or improperly; misuse: To hurt or injure by maltreatment; ill-use

read those 3 proverbs above. it's a condoning of instilling fear in your children through physical abuse, which i don't agree with.

i don't disagree with these definitions.

fine, if you think of "striking" and "beat"-ing as "discipline" then i don't agree with disciplining your children in that manner.

I've got to agree with this one here, I've made a lot of similiar arguments and rationalizations that usually came out with similiar wording, and I have no idea who Bill Maure is?

you will find that a lot of atheist share these opinions. That being said believe what you want I don't care, but if you start preaching the gospel you better get on an asbestos suit.

Great post; I am going to have to read that book. As a practicing Catholic who often questions my own beliefs, I think that is something I'd really be interested in picking up.

so he can't say anything if someone comes on the message board and posts that he or she is a white proud racialist?

You are misinterpreting those passages.

"He who loves [his son] diligently disciplines".

Again, see the definition of discipline. It is the new age view of "discipline" that is largely responsible for the moral decay of our society.

I am a father of two. Just out of curiousity, do you have any?

For the record as I said I was not attempting to preach. I also thing that it this is more of a Website and Forum for Daniel and topics he deems important while in the wrong section it probably isn't a terrible topic. I will say though that I have much respect for a lot of you that have posted though as most seem to have really thought the subject out. I think it is important to come to some conclusion. Even if the one you come to doesn't agree with the one I come too. I don't know.

Yes, he can say he disagrees, but don't stoop to the level of the racist and start name calling. Yousucked, please stop taking what everyone says and coming over the top with some outragous instance to disprove them. The point is that someone started this thread to say that rekindled faith helped them in life, Smash and others preceeded to bash him and his beliefs, simple as that. Most of those people disagreed in a calm and respectful manner, but Smash in particular was out of line.

Word.

I'm not trying to start a fight but these statements are absurd, its harder to be a christian, thats like saying its harder to be a cow than a thoroughbred.

and one last little note start a religious debate with an atheist, and they will show most christians right quick that they indeed know more about there religion and a lot others , more so than the beievers do.

People who don't go to church and don't care one way or the other are not typical atheists, a typical atheist knows the religions and the books of them, that compounded with zero scientific data to prove it, is why non believers become atheists.

If you read my entire post I said "you are entitled to your opinion and voice it if you wish".

This sentence you displayed (out of context) is about how he inisists on verbally abusing others for what they believe. There is a difference between voicing your opinion and "SMASHING" somone for their beliefs.

i don't think i'm misinterpreting. i think we just differ on our beliefs on the aforementioned "discipline".

no i don't have any children, i'm 22 and am not even close to ready to have children. i know you might be thinking that i have no experience with dealing with children so i don't know what it's like. true. however i still disagree that physical "discipline" is okay. through personal experience, i was disciplined when i was young and it instilled in me a fear that i don't think is healthy for a developing child.

aneurysm wrote:

As for my remarks regarding Catholocism: It is the original church. All Protestant churches are Catholocism's censored children. I use it as an example because Catholicism was Christianity until about 400 years ago.


Catholicism is not the original church, Christ is. Catholicism is man created, Christ was created by God. There is no denying the atrocities performed by the Catholic church in the name of Christ (The Crusades are all that really need to be said). I think the Catholic faith is in actuality one of the biggest influences in people not finding Christ. That may be a little unfair to the church, but they are constantly in the media with scandals and their idealogy is not fully representative of the Bible. For instance "pentances" (paying for forgiveness of sins) were created by the Jews and adopted later by Catholics. In the New Testament, Jesus goes into the courtyard of the church and flips over the tables for pentances and other business matters. He clearly states this is not the purpose of church.

I think the point that DN and others are trying to make is that it is a "personal relationship" with Christ. That is my religion. You can call it whatever you like because I am indifferent to the name, I know what it is. It is me with God. Not a scorecard, not an amount I give each month, not what anyone else tells me is right or wrong. Me and Christ. I understand the backlash that Christianity has seen due to people abusing Faith for their own personal desires. However, that is not the case for everyone.

As far as social issues ie: homosexuality, sin, etc. Christ's message can be summed up in one word, "love." Christ hung out with the ill, the prostitutes, the so-called "scum" of the earth and loved them all.

As for Smash and the others, I understand your point of view of many Christians. Especially when someone says they wont judge you and then the next post says "they feel sorry" or "sad" for you (not a direct quote). To everyone here as Christians we have to be careful and honest on how we proclaim our faith in Christ. "Walking contradictions" arent going to convert the masses. Only Christ and the word can do that through us. My goal is not to convert the masses, but rather hope that one person sees the joy Christ has brought into my life and asks me to share my story.

Your faith shouldn't be something that somebody has to prove to you with a scientific experiment or a calculus equation or anything else. It should be where your heart leads you. In the end your faith will never mean so much as when it is all you have left to hold onto.

I googled for a Christian interpretation of the passages you cited. Here's the first one I came up with:

First of all, discipline of children should begin at an early age, whenever a child begins to defy the parent. Remember the old saying, "He who spares the rod, spoils the child." Notice that the Bible says that all children have foolishness in their hearts. We are to drive out this foolishness by punishing them with a whack on the butt with a small reed-like rod when they disobey. This rod could be a switch from a fruit tree branch or a willow tree branch or a small wooden spoon. It is not to be a large heavy rod or anything that would cause permanent physical damage. We are not talking about child abuse here. The purpose of a spanking is not to cause any lasting bodily harm, but to cause spiritual correction. A spanking should be swift and cause short lived pain that makes a point. That point is that the small pain they feel now will prevent them from feeling great pain by the act they are committing, which could cause them the loss of their lives in some cases. (For instance, if a child tries to eat something that is poison.)

I was also disciplined as a child, and I'm thankful for it. Lack of discipline is more prevalent today than actual child abuse. Certainly, child abuse is a FAR more serious problem.

i really... really... really like hot pockets.

is that wrong?


i personally believe they are delicious

scrumptious in fact


coconut sucks

blue is definately the best color


if you disagree, please tell me every way in which im wrong.... i really need to hear it.

I think it would be better if you said "I dislike coconut" and "I like blue the best" as this would be stating opinion rather than as a fact. Political correctness please. :wink:

Hot pockets taste delicious, and I like coconut and feel that mint has a place in my stomach. :-)

I do not enjoy tobacco products. :?

no tobacco?


you are surely going to hell now.


i challenge you to disagree with me.... you are expressing infinite stupidity, you ingorant little peon.


how dare you express an opinion on a public forum

What's become sad about this forum is someone posts about a hand and three guys jump on him and tell him to post in strategy.

Meanwhile, in the general poker forum, there's an on-going religious debate being contributed to by our host.

Maybe these kinds of posts should be in off-topic?

On in a religious forum?

I like mexican food.

For a period of my life, I served as a missionary. Each day I would talk on the streets and in the homes of people from every walk of life. I talked with those who actively participated in organized religions, Christian in the majority, but also extensively with those of the Middle Eastern faiths. I talked with those endorsed a religion of "self", being that they didn't believe in organized religion, or a particular person, but rather their faith was based in themselves. I talked with Atheists, and Agnostics. I talked with ministers, and with those heavily addicted to drugs, and alchohol. From morning to night, I listened to what people believed or chose not to believe. At times it left me disallusioned. Early on in my service, I was niavely compelled to expect those I talked to to want to believe what I believed. This resulted in frustration. The lack of unity among those who had faith in something was disheartening. After some time, I prefered to talk with the person who had little care for religion, Christ, or faith. I prefered to talk to the guy sticking needles between his toes, or the women raising four kids on her own, while her husband served time in prison. I prefered helping suffering over helping someone believe.

As time passed, I became aware of something, however. Those who suffered in addictions, and those just trying to get by needed something. They needed faith. Faith in something beyond themselves. My faith had been rooted in Christ from a young child. I grew up in a family that belonged to an organized religion, and went to church on Sundays. A picture of Christ has always been found near my bedside. I was taught to pray to a God, my Heavenly Father. In my youth, I never doubted that somebody was listening to those prayers. I'd get off my knees at night and crawl in bed with a belief that I was being watched over, that I mattered. It wasn't until I was serving as a missionary that I questioned that belief. I'm not going to bore you with my story of convertion. I will say though, that in the process of helping those who struggled with problems I had never experienced, my faith grew stronger. I watched countless lives change when faith became a part of their lives. The change was drastic in many cases. I do not mention whether that faith was in Christ or not. In most cases, it was. In some, it was simply a belief or faith that somebody cared about them, and they could overcome those things that were robbing their lives of happiness.

Life for me is about happiness. That might sound incredibly narrow, that I will concede. I simply believe that people can live happy lives regardless of circumstance. There are too many things in this world that would try and take away that happiness. We worry about money, some in vanity, some by neccessity. We worry about image and how our peers see us. We suffer from depressions, infermities, and social injustices. Drugs, excessive alchohol, and sexual promiscuity may provide entertainment, but ultimately result in consequence. I commend those who can lives that are indeed happy without faith. I cannot, and nor can the majority of those I've encountered. My faith is in Christ and a God above. In many ways, I like being like that little kid I was who'd climb into bed after saying his nightly prayers. I like the idea that I'm not alone, and that somebody is watching over me, mindful of my sorrows and eager to help me to have happiness. Call me naive. Call me needy. Call me misguided. Yes, I am naive in many ways, I do need help, and at times, I can be terribly misguided. That is why I need faith.

Here is one of the things the original poster wrote:



Combined with the testimonial, this is obvious proselytizing. It wasn't done in a rude way, but it certainly is seeking conversion to some form of Christianity.

I would have felt much more compassion for the poster in the face of Smash's comments if he/she had just stuck to a discussion about religion rather than seeking converts. In my book, once of proselytize, you are fair game for arguments that run counter to conversion.

I enjoy discussions and debate about religion, but I highly dislike attempts to convert me. Daniel even mentioned in one of his posts that he doesn't push his beliefs on others. Of course, he then offered to send someone a book that seems designed to encourage people to buy into in a specific system of beliefs, so I'm not quite sure how he stands on the issue. I respect most beliefs that people hold and expect the same from them, and that respect includes not trying to change those beliefs. Seeking to change my beliefs shows me that you don't respect them.

Great post(s) Daniel. I was excited to hear that you were a Christian, but even more now, I know you've got your head on straight. You've cleared up a lot of misconceptions about Christianity and Relgion. I too am a believer that people put way to much stock in CHURCH and orgainized religion. It becomes a business and deters us from the real reason we call our selves Christians. I haven't read "A case for Christ" but have heard good things about it. MERE CHRISTIANITY by C.S. Lewis is probably my favorite book. He too, was an athiest, and "thought" his way into Christianity-the book is truely amazing. I challenge you all to read it, especially you smash. I don't want to preach or be a jerk, but you seem to be a pretty level-headed guy, and you can understand that it's important to really understand and explore something before you bash it and make assumptions that aren't true. Take a weekend and read Mere Christianity-keep an open mind-that's all I ask.

God Bless-
(great discussion)

Tommy

I'll send a book to those interested. I think it would be a great read for Atheists and Christians really. I'm not pushing or forcing it on anyone, but if someone wants a ton of great information on the subject I'd be happy to pay for it.

this is one of my favorite quotes. But I am always at odds with it. I myself am a conundrum. I'm both a Social Democrat(yes, I just stated my core political beliefs) and a Christian at the same time. I'm not a hard core christian in teh slightest. I haven't attended church(other than christmas eve) in a while. Happenings to me in my life have made me question where my beliefs are and what I am about. Organized religion is a opiate, because people are willing to floow it blindly. I am refering more to the followers of Billy Grahamand Jerry Falwell and those types( I would include religious cults in this group too, including the church of L.Ron hubbard). These are also the people that effected the outcome of the past national election and will effect the outcome of the 2008 national election, for better for worse. For me being a christian is about maximizing your own happiness andliving a moral life. I use the word christian for myself as that is how I manifest my beliefs in the best way for myself. If I figure out another way to manifest my beliefs then I would change that. I don't identify myself as a fullout christian either, I just believe in myself. One person, one god, however you see fit. I don't believe in Blind Faith either(I'm not gonna insert the clapton joke this time), I just believe in personal faith. I try not to be judgemental, but none of us are infallible to that. I believe the person who started this trhread was judging smash when they said "jesus loves you", I don't care what smash believes in, I just care that he gives me a different perpesective on how I could've played my hand when I post it. I'm done with my little rant. peace, love, happiness to all

I really wish I had seen this last night. As for smashs point about morals. I would have to ask you if u considered yourself a good person? As for the debate about the catholic Church. Yeah its focus on paying money and worshiping to another man (pope included) is what started the reformation way back when. I am not trying to offend anybody that is catholic in here but there is a lot that is taught that either isnt in the Bible or that is part of a bigger situation. I think it was Daniel who said that he doesnt necessarily agree with the salvation by works. Well thats because according to the Bible it is not true. Paul spends an enormous amount of time saying that it is by grace through faith and not works that we are saved. A quick example is Ephesians 2:8-10:
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Also real quick about Christians never having problems. THe Bible is about conflict. Most of the Disciples and even the Apostle Paul were thrown into jail for preaching, and a great many of them...all but one i believe were put to death in various ways. Jesus himself said he "didnt come to bring peace but to bring the sword" So it is fullish to say that Christians dont suffer as anybody else.

I didnt get to read all the posts b/c I needed to head out but those were some of the issues that I saw early on. If I recovered something already said im sorry but I thought id get that out

This disscussion reminds me of a great song. If any of you out hear ever want to hear some good music check out the song by Dream Theater called in the name of God.

It disscusses all the things that were done "in the name of god" in the world.

Like the cults, underground religions etc...

Here are the lyrics.

Dream Theater


In The Name of God

by John Petrucci
How can this be?
Why is he the chosen one?

Saint gone astray
With a scepter and a gun

Learn to believe
In the mighty and the strong

Come bleed the beast
Follow me it won’t be long

Listen when the prophet
Speaks to you
Killing in the of God

Passion
Twisting faith into violence
In the name of God

Straight is the path
Leading to your salvation
Slaying the weak
Ethnic elimination

And day we’ll all be
Swept away
You’ll be saved
As long as you obey

Lies
Tools of the devil inside
Written in Holy disguise
Meant to deceive and divide
Us all

Listen when the prophet
Speaks to you
Killing in the name of God

Passion
Twisting faith into violence
In the name of God

Blurring the lines
Between virtue and sin
They can’t tell
Where God ends
And manking begins

They know no other
Life but this
From the cradle
They are claimed

Listen when the prophet
Speaks to you
Killling in the name of God

Passion
Twisting faith into violence
In the name of God

Hundreds of believers
Lured into a doomsday cult

All would perish
In the name of God

Self-proclaimed messiah
Led his servants
To their death
Eighty murdered
In the name of God
Forty sons and daughters
Un-consenting plural wives
Perversions
In the name of God

Underground religion
Turning toward
The mainstream light
Blind devotion
In the name of God

Justifying violence
Citing from the Holy Book
Teaching hatred
In the name of God

Listen when the prophet
Speaks to you
Killing
In the name of God

Passion
Twisting faith into violence
In the name of God

Religious beliefs
Fanatic obsession
Does following faith
Lead us to violence?

Unyielding crusade
Divine revelation
Does following faith
Lead us to violence?

such an insanely talented band

To me, this is what it's all about.


"Beautiful Letdown" By Jon Foreman

it was a beautiful let down
when i crashed and burned
when i found myself alone unknown and hurt
it was a beautiful let down
the day i knew
that all the riches this world had to offer me
would never do

in a world full of bitter pain and bitter doubt
i was trying so hard to fit in, fit in,
until i found out
i don't belong here
i don't belong here
I will carry a cross and a song where I don't belong
but i don't belong

it was a beautiful let down
when you found me here
yeah for once in a blue moon i see everything clear
i'll be a beautiful let down
that's what i'll forever be
and though it may cost my soul
i'll sing for free
we're still chasin our tails and the rising sun
in our dark water planet
still spins in a race
where no one wins and no one's one

I don't belong here
I don't belong here
i'm gonna set sight and set sail for the kingdom come
Your kingdom come
won't you let me down yeah
let my foolish pride
forever let me down

easy living, not much like your name
easy dying, you look just about the same
won't you please take me off your list
easy living please come on and let me down

we are a beautiful let down,
painfully uncool,
the church of the dropouts
and losers and sinners and failures and the fools
oh what a beautiful let down
are we salt in the wound
let us sing one true tune

I don't belong here
I don't belong here
I don't belong here
Feels like I don't belong here
Let me down
Let me down
Feels like I'm let down
Let me down.
Cuz I don't belong here
Please
Won't you let me down?

wow now we're quoting christian songs?

if someone starts singing creed, i think i am going to lose it.

So given that most of you, or some of you (at worst) consider yourself tied to a belief in God, or a higher being of some sort, but not firmly rooted in a religious organization, would it not be easier to refer to yourself as Unitarian? I believe in something, or someone greater, but I neither, practice, nor preach. I just simply believe that is possible (probably perhaps even) that there is someone/thing greater.

My girlfriend is a unitarian. She believes in a greater being, but doesn't believe in becoming a part of any religious organization or following. The Unitarians are really just a group of people who believe that there could be someone/thing greater, but just aren't willing to give in to the idea that there is one right religious org.

I also believe in Aliens too. But I don't preach or practice alienism.

EDIT: You know what...Daniel, I'm gonna take you up on your offer about the book. Why? Because I'm interested. Geniunely interested. My father is a Catholic, uncle is a Catholic priest, my mom is Buddhist and my girlfriend is Unitarian. I face all different types of religions and beliefs daily as I interact with them. Perhaps getting a fresh (or at least different) idea is in order after all these years. I'll send you a PM or email about this...

Once again, I've enjoyed reading everybodies posts. Whether they be for or against Christ. I myself am a Christian and have been for quite sometime. Christianity in by no means is easy and does not promise a life without problems, but promises a life with LOTS of problems. If we didn't have problems then we wouldn't need to Trust God to pull us through. I haven't read the " Case for Christ " but I have read " Mere Christianity " by C.S. Lewis and it by far is my favorite book. I think another poster said he read it too. If you really want a deep theological discussion than this is the book for you. Anything pretty much by C.S. Lewis is great. I in no means will say to keep an open mind when reading it. I hate when people say they are open-minded. People only accuse other people of being closed-minded because they don't think the same things as they do. Its just silly. So read it if you want..thats all.

I just wanted to say something i had wrote in another post again and that having a personal relationship with God is really what Christianity is about, but first you must realize why you have to have a personal relationship with God. You are a sinner and you have broken the law of God. ( which is the Ten Commandments ) If you first do not realize that you are a sinner than you can't become a Christian. I see so many people proclaiming that just believe in Christ and everything will be ok. Well, we need to believe in Christ, but first we need to realize that we have wronged God. Once we realize this than true Grace and Mercy can be given. We must first admit that we are sinners and have broken God's law, we must repent ( a changing of the mind, to turn around ) and ask for God's forgiveness. Once we have Forgiveness ( which was promised to us when Christ payed for the sins of the whole world ) than we can have our personall relationship with God. I'm not saying that you aren't going to sin but you have a different outlook on sin now. I wish I could write more but I have to run. Just like to thank all the posters for their involvment in this topice and the great discussion. Once last thing though : you can debate so many things about the bible, but until you understand this one point than all other things are pointless to discuss.

Thanks also to Daneil for offering up to buy the book for people. That is a great thing. God bless everyone and I would say good luck...but I don't believe in it rather...make good reads and play solid

this sounds like preaching to me.

DN wrote:

I'll send a book to those interested. I think it would be a great read for Atheists and Christians really. I'm not pushing or forcing it on anyone, but if someone wants a ton of great information on the subject I'd be happy to pay for it.

Daniel,

From my post earlier, I obviously am a christian. However, my girlfriend is an atheist. I dont try to push anything on her and she has a very open mind. The best way i have found if somone is stubborn or open to learning more is to ask them "if you were wrong, would you want to know?". If they say no, there is nothing to talk about. Anyways, my main point is I would like to get the book for her to read. I would probably read it as well so we could have a dicussion abou it and maybe there could be an opening there. You said to email you, but how do I do that? I looked under the member thing and your email wasnt listed. Thanks,

Smash, I would recommend you would research the assertion that there is no credible historical evidence of his existence. You will be surprised. It is very well established that the man Jesus Christ did live, of course it's a large leap from there as to whether he was who he claimed….



I think most of the Christians here would argue that the pain and suffering you speak of is a result of misguided leadership and people in positions of power misusing the name of God. These are not the actions which Christ condoned, and Christ spent a good part of his time arguing with the religious leaders in his day. Your argument against true Christianity is using things associated with the "Christian religion" that the personal individual believers themselves disagree with. This is pretty simple to grasp if you are listening. You can't say to DN that his beliefs are wrong because the Church has been a bastard for the last 1000's of years… because he already recognizes it and claims his beliefs to be not the same represented by those who caused the pain and suffering. A prime example today would be TV evangelists saying they are doing things in God's name, but clearly the people on the forum who claim a personal faith disagree with their actions.



These statements wreak of bitterness towards religion and your own denial of self inspection. You are not listening to the personal beliefs instead you are making blanket statements and taking the worst of organized religion - which noone here is supporting! and using it to refute the life and teachings of Christ. You speak of using it as a crutch while you cling to your general statements with a stubbornness that is shocking even to your normal forum supporters.

You have taken the easiest way out of all, by simply saying everyone's weak and that you don't know what happens but all evidence seems to point to nothing happening at all… when it is clear that you haven't truly weighed all the evidence…

That said I am sure that regardless of how long we debated we would be at a stalemate… for two reasons. 1.) You would NEVER be able to prove me wrong, and 2.) I will never be able to prove me right, because true Christianity at some point somewhere along the line defies logic and requires a leap of faith. A leap of faith requires an open mind… and I'm sorry that you've closed yours… because if you can ever make that leap of faith, the freedom and love that will be found is amazing.

But Smash, I do challenge you to read DN's recommended book as well as the other suggested reading Mere Christianity, and comment on it. I'd love to hear your comments on them.

On a sidenote I'd like to point out that it is a scientific belief that the Earth is actually at the center of the universe… (pretty neat eh?)… Through the mapping of space in recent years, it has been established that the planets and stars are all moving outwards away from the earth… granted gravity has caused the earth to rotate the sun so I guess technically the Sun is the center… ha! But regardless you'd be pretty surprised at the scientific theses that this research points to…