i'm going to say again that my mom is a devout fanatical catholic. she's talked to me so much about miracles, resurrections, stigmata stories, saints, healers... she's got huge collections of books and videos, so i think i have been exposed to plenty of religious influence. i tend to ignore her.

You do realize that dinosaurs existed before man did, don't you?

And you do realize that "adam and eve" and "caveman" are not mutually exclusive terms, don't you?

Do you have a hard time understanding words, or are you just trying to cause trouble? Define how someone who goes to church once a week lives in an "unconventional manner", or is under the guidance of an authoritarian.

How is it ridiculous? Is it because everyone KNOWS that atoms exist? What if I had used 'quarks' instead? (I didn't because some people wouldn't be familiar with the term) What if I had used 'black holes'? Do you believe in them? Is it through faith?

would be kind of hard to rob a grave that was being guarded by roman soldiers that also had believers in Jesus near the grave at all times too...

It's very unconventional at the start. It's only the convention because it got popular.

i believe in them (black holes) because they emit radiation. its actually quite fascinating how (hawking proposes) it works. the anti particle and the particle are together (nothing)... kinda like -1 and 1 making 0... its actually much more fun to think of 0 as -32145 + 32145... but anyway. as the couple approaches the black hole, one of them is torn away and into the singularity... the other scurries away in the form of radiation.


thats too damn cool to try to disprove

To say that Christianity was unconvential means u have to also say that Judaism is unconventional. What you forget is that well before the time of Jesus it had been prophesized that there would come a Messiah who would save the people. So when Jesus came saying He was the one that was talked about how is that unconvential? If there had never been a foreshadowing of His life then yes people would call Him a lunatic but the fact that everybody knew he was to come, knew what he was there to do and knew why he was there makes it a little hard to say its unconvential

So these people have nothing better to do than constantly hang outside a tomb for days on end?

I'd be reluctant to believe that the Romans would be continuously guarding the tomb of some criminal (their perception...I'm not making a statement). Their interest would be to keep the peace. If people left the tomb, so would they once the potential for any sort of uprising was over...they're not going to guard it forever right?

Very cool, but I'm guessing you've never personally monitored radiation from black holes. Like I said originally, you either read it in a book, or you're taking somebody's word for it.

Well, first of all, I don't like the Catholic belief system. At all. The concept of a Pope who can talk directly to God kind of bewilders me, not to mention their mannerisms at services are just plain wrong and exploit people.

For example, my friend from College was the second "test tube baby" in Michigan. His family is devout Catholic, but he was not allowed to attend the church? Why, you ask? The church decided that he was not a real human being, and they didn't even allow him to come with his family. There are a lot of issues with the Catholic church, and that just pushed me over the top. They not only judged him, but they judged him so much that they believed he wasn't even deserving of God.

BUT, just because some people have it wrong, doesn't make everyone wrong. I encourage you to read these books. People can go on and on about the things you mentioned, but if there is no proof behind what they say, of course it sounds rediculous. But there is a lot more out there than most think.

ok if you still don't get it, i mentioned dinosaurs and cavemen because jack the cat seems to take the bible as historical truth. i don't know if you realize, but a lot of christians seem to believe that god created the earth and man no more than a couple thousand years ago, and people have termed this "creationism" or "ex nihilo" if you will. now in jack's little post, he affirms this with what he thinks is scientific evidence. so, this seems to point out that dinosaurs didn't exist, and ancient homosapiens didn't exist. and yes, i know that they existed in separate times, did i really have to answer that?

Catholicism is the original curch. A church is an organization, Christ (in my opinion) is an idea.

if that's how you view things, then how do you manage to go about your daily life?

sometimes someone's word is all we have... and when its a reputable scientist observing and recording mathematically explained phenomena, im willing to accept his observations.

The label doesn't matter. Somebody was trying to associate the word 'cult' with Christianity simply because 'cult' has a negative connotation. It's just another way to attack religion. Whether you feel that Christianity is unconventional is an entirely different argument. Christianity can't be deemed unconventional by modern standards... there's simply too many Christians.

Good question and it is as easy as ABC

Admit you are a sinner and in need of a Saviour
Believe that Christ died for you and thru His blood your sins are forgiven
Confess that Jesus is the Lord and ask him to come into your heart and be the guide your life.

It's a gift you don't have to earn it...

JackTheCat

I'm saying that the practice of Christianity, like the beginnings of any religion, are by definition unconventional at their inception. If they aren't, then they are the convention. If they are the convention, then how are they different? Judiasm at its start was uncoventional...one god, no pork, etc.

To be honest, I'm having some trouble following your logic. Christianity was conventional because someone said a messiah would come hundreds of years in the past? I don't follow.

If Jesus claiming to be the messiah was conventional, then why did he take and not all the others who claimed that title?

But I'm not a sinner. What do I do now?

well if you check out the Bible Jesus made the claim that he would be resurrected after 3 days. So knowing this wouldnt u think it would be wise of the Romans to make sure of this? There was a potential riot on their hands that they had to keep calm. This leaves several options for a ruler

1. HE doesnt guard the Body. If he does this well then if the body isnt there then the christians would claim it had been resurrected while the Jews would claim it was stolen. Seeing as how the goal was not to have a rebellion that would cause a lot of problems for the Romans.

2. He does guard the Body. If it is there after 3 days...Well then the Jews win and the Christians have been proved false. If it is not there then it kinda defeats the arguement of the Jews that the body was stolen. With a more defiante answer being available.

Now after seeing those 2 options..which sounds more likely?

I'd bet that 99% of those millions of people your talking about never even heard of those books and the reason most of those millions of people believe is because mommy and daddy told them to from the day they were born.

I have some very christian friends who always tell me that if i don't join their faith that when "the Jesus" comes back at the end of time that i won't be saved and brought to the great kingdom in the sky, that being a good person and living a good life just isn't enough to get an invite to this so called kingdom, but Charles Manson won't have any problems getting in if he asks god for forgiveness and accepts him into his heart.

I was always thought that living a good life and being a good person was good enough to get you to the pearly gates where st. peter opened his book and looked over you life and told ya that you were either in or out based on how you lived, not on your beliefs.

Have you ever told a lie? even a white one?
JackTheCat

i'm a sinner and in need of some C2, you know, the low carb coke.
i believe christ died because i saw it in mel gibson's movie.
i confess that jesus probably did help people but how is a dead dude going to come into my heart and guide my life?

Not really. There was religion before Christianity, just ask a Jewish person. But that argument is flawed anyway, since everything has to start sometime. Something that has been accepted for almost as long as there has been recorded history of mankind can hardly be called unconventional. Also, it's hard to see something truly unconventional (aka REAL cults) to ever become popular. That's part of what makes it unconventional. Cult leaders usually have something to gain, and while there are people *cough*Catholics*cough* that try to use religion to gain, there are just as many, if not more, do things to help people because they feel that is what God wants. My best friend, who recently became a Christian, is a good example of this. He is going to Turkey for two months not for him, but for God.


As for your grave guarding comment (i'm too lazy to go back and quote it), you are assuming that people that lived 2000 years ago have the same priorities and thought process as you. Their society was completely different. Guarding the grave of an execution that high profile would be of utmost importance. There are people who dedicate their lives to researching things like this, so before you make decisions against what they have to say, you should at least read what they have to say.

1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!

2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!

3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!

4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!

5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!

6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!

7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!

8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!

9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!

yes, and then you tried to apply that evangelical generalization to Christianity as a whole.

The actual number of literal translation believers is actually a lot smaller than what many are led to believe. Your "bible thumpers," per se. They just happen to be a very vocal (and discredited) lot.

It's the same with this generalization about what any religion believes by people who aren't members of said religion. As a Catholic, I hear it a lot. I know the Mormons do. Christianity can't be put in a box and generalized the way some are trying to do.

Do you know that the Pope has gone on record as saying that from the Catholic Church's view, evolution does not contradict biblical or Church teachings, and that members of the church who believe in it are encouraged to do so? Many people don't. Now, if only they back off of the male priests and abstinence route, I'll be happy.

There are many different beliefs within Christianity; just because someone doesn't believe in dinosaurs and say they are mythical doesn't mean that reflects on the whole of Christianity...

These things don't have an impact on my daily life. I'm not sure I understand that question.

The point I made as that you claim to not understand faith, yet you enlist your trust in things that you've never seen or don't understand. Do you believe in Einstein's Theory of Relativity? Remember, Einstein was proven wrong on many counts after his death. I would definitely think he qualifies as a " reputable scientist observing and recording mathematically explained phenomena".


I think you're beginning to understand faith.

I probably won't be the last, but let me attempt.

As someone raised in the Christian belief, (my father, and grandfather were pastors), I was steadfast until I was 17. Then, in my boarding school in Germany, 911 happened. We received death threats from anti-American groups, finding bloody pellets on the steps of our school quite often. My friend's father committed suicide, slashing his wrists in the forest by my dorm. On top of that, our dormitory burned down, myself and 15 others losing every single possession I had in the world. In the same time, I had to apply to 11 different schools in the states and juggle a severely twisted ankle. I won't even mention the replacement room they gave me to live in, a 6x6 shithole in the corner of some remote inn where frankly, I often felt lonely and suicidal.

I decided to give up Christianity, renouncing it a trick and like Smash said, authority using it to gain power and to manipulate the masses. I delved into dark things. I wrote demonic-themed poetry quite often, contemplated suicide every day, and generally became anti-social and rebellious, attempting to subvert any form of authority within the school. I was blessed not to be expelled from this school.

Since then I have had quite a journey, attempting to find myself and to really find out just what the truth was. I examined nearly every worldview existing in this world, anywhere from nihilism, theism, postmodernism, existentialism, and so forth. From a purely empirical and logical perspective, I attempted to find out just what the best worldview would be for the average human. That is, one that would give a human being the maximum amount of happiness, peace, joy, and the soundest and most sensible moral index to live by.

I sincerely believe that the human being is intensely concerned with the truth; we seek it every day. I will not reveal if I am an atheist, Muslim, Christian, or agnostic. That is entirely irrelevant. I've seen a lot of statements on this topic that disturb me, mainly because they are entirely ignorant and poorly researched. Some statements are blatantly false, in fact. Smash's statement that Jesus probably never existed would be laughed at in every intellectual debate across the nation. There is more documentation of Jesus' existence than that of Julius Ceasar. Smash pretty much used every generic argument of the atheists of old, all of which have been thoroughly dismantled by theistic intellectuals today. Similarly, Kelsey's attitude sounded strongly of, "I am better than you because I am closer to God, but it's ok, I won't judge you; just tell me about your life and I'll tell you how to fix it." While I'm sure his attempts were altogether honorable and altruistic, no doubt many have heard this tone and have already built a blockade against it. And hint: people might listen more often if you come with a fact, rather than the trite, "Jesus loves you."

My point is this: nobody will listen to you if you don't care about your topic. Sure, you love Jesus, but you can't answer any of the questions that skeptics will throw at you. That makes you look rather foolish and unprepared. How would a self-proclaimed NBA fanatic look if he couldn't even name a star player on each NBA team? He would, in short, appear to be a hypocrite. Atheists and agnostics, if you're out to make every unaware Christian look dumb, do it gracefully and do it well. Most atheists come off as bitter, hateful loners who have nothing better to do than to make well-intentioned, albeit moronic, Christians miserable.

If you're gonna make a claim, back it up. Don't spout generic crap or things you've heard from others; there are people out there (like me!) who love debating with brash but hopelessly misinformed dudes.

And if you're not gonna make any claims, that's more than ok. Just be positive.

Ok, you've got me there. I guess it depends on how you define what a sin is. I personally have no problem with Christians or any other group of people: black, white, homosexual, etc. I only have a problem when someone tells me that I am going to hell because I'm Jewish (well, born Jewish but practising apatheistic). By that logic, check out how many people are going straight to hell because they weren't born to families that were Christian...

Islam: 1.3 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
Buddhism: 360 million
Chinese traditional religion: 225 million
primal-indigenous: 150 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 14 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 6 million
Jainism: 4 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 3 million
Tenrikyo: 2.4 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 700 thousand
Scientology: 600 thousand
Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand

I find it pretty ridiculous to claim that one religion is any more valid than the next.

I assume you mean the proconsul for ruler.

I don't recall Jesus saying that he'd come back after three days. I could be mistaken. It has been a while since I've read it.

The Romans were probably ignorant of the three day thing regardless of whether or not it was known to everyone else. They certainly wouldn't care "who wins." But yes, they are looking to keep order, so if things were heated, they would be guarding the tomb. I was just introducing the possiblity that they wouldn't be.



How about the cult of Isis? Or Mithras? Or Christianity? Oh, wait...

For the times, many of the Christian ideas were incredibly radical. So much so that the Romans had a lot of difficulty understanding it for a long time.



Well, I've read a lot about what people 2000 years ago thought...it the original language. I'm just wondering how high profile this execution was that there are no primary documents written about it. Even Tacitus only gives it a paragraph and that paragraph is though to have been added hundreds of years later.

Maybe that's true. However, you have no idea on the number, so 99% seems a bit high. But just as many believe there is no God because mommy and daddy told them. Most of these people will eventually become conflicted, and hopefully that is when they'll seek answers. I still think though that Atheism requires a lot more blind faith then Christianity does.

:wall:

If there were any doubt about a truly bizarre "REAL CULT" getting popular...

If I'm the cat guy,, I did not say Christianity was a crutch...

I hope you mean some other cat guy..

JackTheCat

Congratulations! Hope everything goes smoothly.



I wouldn't call it coincidence. If we must put a name on it, let's call it evolution.

If God is indeed the creator of everything, how did he/she become? It's like my theory on the size of the universe. I would argue that the universe has no end while someone would argue that it has to have an end. Then let's say it does have an end and we can somehow reach it. What's on the other side? My point is that these things are discussions that will go on forever. It is the "what came first the chicken or the egg question" on a larger scale. Have fun with it, believe in what you want, and be reasonably nice to one another. Let the chicken and egg responses begin......

well I must say I did enjoy manwansi's article. I to went through some difficult times that led me to turn away from christianity. I began searching for a reason why bad things happened. I literally rebelled against christianity. I drank, smoked, used girls and tried everything else possible. Yet through all of this I never did find the happiness i was searching for. I spent more then enough mornings waking up regretting what had happened the night before. It was after this i began to realize that I was causing myself the problems i had. I began to realize that I was blaming God for every problem in my life. He has made it clear from the beginning that we wont have a problem free life but actually the opposite. Many have died for preaching the Word of God and many more are sitting in jail in other countries because they were christians. I have a freind who accidently brought "A case for Christ" back with him to China when he went home. Now just having that book there is cause to be thrown in jail. He was lucky though. My point is that life isnt struggle free.. But its a lot better knowing that you have God waiting for you then to just live without hope.

As for manwansi's comment about unknowledgeable christians. Yeah it is a sad thing. Only about 10% of christians read on a daily bases. That causes lots of problems b/c it is more often those who dont know that are put on the spot over those who do know. The only thing i would ask of those who meet people christians that just dont know answre is to not judge christianity off of that. Take the time to talk to a pastor or somebody who is knowledgable before you just brush it aside.

These things don't have an impact on my daily life. I'm not sure I understand that question.

the attitude




it appears you were trying to trap me into the whole faith issue.

i never said i didnt understand faith.

im not discounting the christian faith.. i am still undecided. i dislike organized religion. i feel like there is a higher power at the time, but i find my scientific side laughing at that.... as a 19 year old i realize i will find my true beliefs eventually


that's my exact quote on my stance on religion... it can be seen above in this thread.

i am not doubting the existence of your god, and i am curious as to what you are trying to prove... this whole conversation simply started as i was pointing out scientific fact behind your comments.


but hey.. im 20 in a few days. maybe i'll "wake up" as a christian soon.

[quote="MDXS"][quote]

How about the cult of Isis? Or Mithras? Or Christianity? Oh, wait...

For the times, many of the Christian ideas were incredibly radical. So much so that the Romans had a lot of difficulty understanding it for a long time.

[quote]As for your grave guarding comment (i'm too lazy to go back and quote it), you are assuming that people that lived 2000 years ago have the same priorities and thought process as you. Their society was completely different. Guarding the grave of an execution that high profile would be of utmost importance. There are people who dedicate their lives to researching things like this, so before you make decisions against what they have to say, you should at least read what they have to say.[/quote]

Well, I've read a lot about what people 2000 years ago thought...it the original language. I'm just wondering how high profile this execution was that there are no primary documents written about it. Even Tacitus only gives it a paragraph and that paragraph is though to have been added hundreds of years later.[/quote]

Do you see a cult overtaking the entire world now? I sure don't. Also, if it were unconventional, how did it spread so quickly? You say that the Romans took a long time to understand... which Romans are you talking about, all Romans? Surely you musn't believe that. Something that took a long time to accept surely couldn't have spread as fast as Christianity did. Amish people still don't accept electricity, so are we unconventional? There were more people alive in the world than just the Romans you are talking about.

Documents could have easily been lost. But they did let a known serial murderer go in place of him. That at least suggests that a lot of people really wanted him dead.

First of all, if you believe in absolute Truth rather than relative truth, then yes there can be One Way to Heaven. Hell to the Christian is separation from God. He gives everyone the opportunity to know him, whether thru hearing the Word or seeing His majesty and glory in nature, it is His Grace that will save. You mentioned you were Jewish,, so was Christ, he came to fulfill all the laws of His religion and He did just that. If you don't want to spend Eternity with Christ and God, then that is your Hell, a prison which is locked from the inside.

I can't worry about the millions of others being led astray at this moment, that is God's job. All I can do is what He asks me to do, profess my faith in him and "always be prepared to defend what I beleive." It's in a book written by Peter in the Bible, not the exact quote but I can get it if you like.

JackTheCat

Your argument about who created the creator is the common argument to refute the causality argument that many have tried to use to prove the existence of god. One of these was St. Thomas Aquinas as was mentioned earlier in this thread about his 5 ways. Each of these arguments have been logical discounted based on various assumptions that were made in his proofs.

In St. Thomas Aquinas' proof he mentions a 'first cause' in his causality argument in the same breath that he utters that every cause has an effect which in turn has a cause. Basically everything that is was caused by something earlier. So what 'caused' the 'first cause'? God. Ok. So what caused God? Who knows.

There is no way there are 600 thousand people that change their lives completely because of scientology. And when you consider that, plus the fact of how many people there are in the world, it isn't really THAT popular.

MDXS
I don't recall Jesus saying that he'd come back after three days. I could be mistaken. It has been a while since I've read it.

Here are 2 examples of Jesus saying he would rise again:

Mark 9:31 For He (meaning Jesus) was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later."

Mark 10:34 "They will mock Him and spit on Him, and scourge Him and kill Him, and three days later He will rise again."

Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God. 17 Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor. 18 Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to the kind and gentle but also to the overbearing. 19 For one is approved if, mindful of God, he endures pain while suffering unjustly. 20 For what credit is it, if when you do wrong and are beaten for it you take it patiently? But if when you do right and suffer for it you take it patiently, you have God's approval. 21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 22 He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips. 23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly. 24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

Taken from 1st Peter 16-25, I think it explains a lot.

JackTheCat

oh lucifer! it's turning into bible study in here.

OOPS i'm sorry Nimble

I forgot there for a second that this was a poker forum and that if i tossed out a number (99% in this case) that someone would tell me that said number was dumb and that i had no proof that said number was accurate and +EV or -EV.....lol

I'm most likely an idiot but it's easier for me to believe that Jesus was some far advanced alien that came to earth with his advanced technology and healed people and made wine out of water with his molecular transducer thingymabob then to believe that some all mighty guy in the sky sent us his son.

No he just had said he didnt remember seeing it in the Bible that Jesus said he woudl rise again...so i was just showing him the specific passages where he did...Not tryin to start a Bible study just answering a question

Do I see a cult overtaking the world now? No. But that wasn't what we were talking about. Society was different back then, like you say, so it would be easier. Christianity, like Isis, was a mystery cult. You get initiated and you get sacred literature and learn all the secrets of the cult. Like Isis, it promised life after death. If the story if Isis were as intriguing we may be debating about her right now.

It was unconventional, and it spread fairly quickly, but quickness is relative. It was 300 years before it became the offical religion of the empire. Is that fast or not?

I'm speaking about your average Roman, who grew up with the gods and has no concept of a life after death in the Christian sense. These ideas are bizarre and would not make sense to your average Roman.

Right, there are more people than the Romans, but they are all I was talking about, and really all I care about. At this time though, they were in control of an awful lot, and pretty much everywhere relevant to our discussion.

Documents could have been lost, sure, but that doesn't mean they existed. I would argue that they are less likely to exist because had any made it a couple of centuries, Christian writers and scholars would be very interested in proliferating the writings. Unless of course, they were contradictory.

I need to retire from this conversation for a while, so responses may be a while in coming, if at all...

Jesus led a group of disciples, as far as I can recollect. They all followed his word.

He walked about the place with a group of ordinary people that he converted along the way, living as a closely knit group (i think). It was no different to a modern-day cult. How can you not see that?

It isn't meant to be an easy concept. I've had long talks with a very knowledgeable friend of mine, have read books upon books and I still have a lot of questions. But that's good to me, something this important shouldn't be this easy to come to a decision on. At least, not for me.

As for the number thing, just be wary that 99% is a lot more than, say, using the words "a lot". Some people truly believe the percentage is 99, some people just throw out a high number. It's hard to tell.

numbers, plain and simple.

Activity: Listen to an explanation of any religion as an unknowing child would, with no previous knowledge. It sounds ridiculous...kinda like a cult.

Thanks for the Bible quotes, I wasn't certain about that.



It hasn't been around long, so I'd say that it's wildly popular. And why couldn't that many change their lives because of scientology?



Thanks Filesharer, want to take over for me in that debate?