Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, K.
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) Q, K, 3 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 4 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (6.25 BB) T (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero ...

Villain used the exact same line when he rivered a set of 8's vs my TPTK.

Hmm. you called and won?

I can't fold there getting ~9:1.

I think this is a situation where you just have to pay him off.

There is no such thing as a situation where you HAVE to pay someone off. There's no reason to think like that. I think I fold this hand, most of the time, without a read.

Wang

You don't think we are good here one in ten times? Also..if we start folding to river raises like this people will start c/ring the river with alot less then TPTK.

Make the pot smaller (~6BB) and I fold.

1) There's rarely a check/raised river with 6ish BB in it.

2) What's the villian making this play with?

Wang

1) Make it 7ish BB then.

2) You would be surprised what they can turn over. In the games I play, villain can easily have something like JT.

You might be right. But my biggest pet peeve is the whole "you CAN'T fold here" attitude. It's irresponsible. Just because the pot is big doesn't mean you can't fold. If you can't win, you can fold.

I'm too drunk to really analyze this hand, but I don't wany anyone on these forums suggesting some pot is too big to fold, unless he/she gives a reason.

Sorry, I'm hammery/hammery/hammered:

Wang

Allright..maybe I phrased it the wrong way

Are you ever sober?

The best way to play these hands is to usually fold, and sometimes call. Or course, adjusting your call/fold frequency based on your opponent.

My thinking during the hand was that he can't be bluff raising me. I think I'm up against a rivered 2 pair here, QT or KT. The other hand, I had AQ on a Qxxx8 board, where he used the exact same line with 88.

I think screech is right, I should be mixing up between calling and folding in these spots.

Screech is definatly right, but I think at 2-4 it should be 50/50 wheter you call or fold. At 10-20 more folding is probably better. And as usual the most important thing to keep in mind is what kind of villain am I facing?

Without a read, this looks like a pretty easy fold.

Verdimme,

I find that with river check/raises, it's somewhat impractical to examine your immediate odds. Sure, you are getting 10:1ish or whatever with TPTK, but being check/raised on the river generally means you are toast. They're expecting you to call, because they know that you'll know you'll be getting 10:1. You need to start disappointing your opponents in these spots, and save your bet.

Also, giving your opponents the green light to check/raise you with marginal holdings on the river isn't exactly a bad thing for you. As long as you can adjust to it properly, you can start getting in double-sized value bets on the river. This all assumes that they actually notice that you're folding, which often won't be the case.

Edit: Also, I'm looking at your hand histories. I just haven't had time to give you feedback with the whole Neteller fiasco. PM me your address and I'll get around to sending you mine as well.

My Thoughts:


Do not fold this river unless you have an incredibly confident read on your opponent.

And if you do fold this river, do not do it again for a very long time.

Yes, it's possible that you could be so confident in your read that you are sure that your TPTK will not win even 11% of the time.
And so folding in that theoretical situation may marginally be the better play.

But once you make that fold, anyone who sees it may use it against you for a long time to come.
And once this possibility exists, you simply won't be in a position any more in which you can say, with 90% certainty, that your TPTK is worthless against this 2/4 opponent.



At the low limits, I have seen players make this horrible bluff plenty of times.
There are just so many bad players that make desperate plays when frustrated.

When an aggressor folds to a river check-raise like this, it sends a [/u]huge[u]
message to the rest of the table.
Even the ignorant opponents will spot such an obvious turn of events.
And these opponents would think it's just the coolest thing to start bluff check-raising you whenever they want.

At the lower limits, I feast on opponents who can be shaken off the river in big pots.
And it gets even better when the opponent shows his strong hand before he mucks it.



Having opponents bluff check-raise you is good...
but only if you are going to be calling them all down.
Fold to just one too many of them, and you will be costing yourself lots of enchiladas.


The point is this:
If you were to call down this check-raise every single time at this level for the rest of your poker playing life, and you were wrong the vast majority of time, then you would lose a little bit of money in the long run. But the damage would not be much.

But if you were to fold this often against players at this level, you would be throwing away entire pots. And the more you folded, the more often folding would be wrong. And throwing away these big pots will certainly add up and could lead to significant losses.

Do not fold these rivers until you begin playing better players at higher limits.
But right now, the opponents that you and I are playing need to be called down.


--cm

Why do we give 2/4 players credit for paying attention? I guarentee you 90-95% of the 2/4 population would not know how to exploit someone who they saw fold to a river check/raise, assuming they noticed. The small percentage that do notice, and have the initiative to do something about, often won't exploit it correctly. If they are making mistakes against us, we are making the money.

Guys, I play these limits too, and I still don't think this is a call. I think some of the disparity between the call and fold camp resides in our varying amounts of experience. True, a present 2/4 player will probably have a better feel for that particular game than players like Screech or Wang would, but Wang and Screech have a lot more experience with being check/raised (rather, I'm assuming they do, probably a safe assumption.) Being check/raised with just TP really, really sucks on so many levels. It sucks because it'll always leave us with amazing odds to call, but the people that check/raise know this. They know that they are going to get called, hell, they EXPECT to get called. When someone performs an expensive maneuver expecting to get called, it means that they will have TP beat WAYYYYY more than 1/9 times.

Do we play in different games? How would you rate your table selection skills? In my games, I fold this, and I don't get exploited. In fact, there is so much turnover amongst the players that I have a hard time digesting the thought that metagame has that much of a bearing in these games.

I think there needs to be a reverse shift in thought, going away from the SSHE "pay everyone off if the pot is huge." You can fold in big pots as long as you are doing it correctly. When we get check/raised on the river with TPTK only getting 10:1 against a typical 2/4 player, I think that's one of those times. I also think there needs to be a more extravagant read to call this rather than to fold.

I know this isn't the question, but does anyone hate the idea of just checking behind on the river? (I know hindsight is 20/20). That river is kinda scary as it makes 2 pairs and straights all over the place..I don't know though, I'm not much of a limit player but am going to try to improve

This is a textbook value bet.

You might be hesitant to bet based on results-oriented thinking, but that's actually quite common and nothing to be ashamed of.

It's tough to explain what situations are prime opportunities for value bets, but generally when you have a good hand (i.e. TPTK) against loose/passive players who have shown no real strength thus far, and you can expect to get called by a lot of worse hands, a value bet can be highly profitable.

Experience also helps with determining whether you should value bet because you'll often make a mental log of how often you get called by worse hands, better hands, get check/raised, etc., in each particular situation.

It's good that you are aspiring to improve. I would suggest that you make yourself visible in this forum and offer your analyses on some hands. Structured hand analysis is critical for the development of a SH limit player, and basically any poker player in general. Good luck.

Ok, no sweat. I'll guess I will start folding to some river c/r's then..and post them here. I've sent you an email btw.

This isn't an "easy" fold.
This will be KJ or AK or a total bluff quite a bit.
Difference between calling and folding isn't much, I would probably call.

You're right, I exagerrated. Not as easy as I've made it out to be.

I think it is a fold though.

Really?

It might just be the limits different people play at that is causing so much disagreement here, but I've gone through my handhistories and found that I don't get bluff check/raise on the river all that often. Somewhere between 1/10 to 1/15 times.

Like I said earlier, against most players it is a fold. Against LAGgier players, then it probably swings to a call. The point is, it's so close it really doesn't matter what you do this one time. On average, I would guess that this call is slightly -EV. But you may want to call here because you want to get a quick read on this guy, or you want to send a message early that he can't check/raise bluff you off of made hands on the river (meaning that if a similar situation happens in the future, you HAVE TO fold assuming he had you beat the first time).

So to say this is always a fold or always a call is wrong. Against certain players it may always be one or the other, but on average, you have to mix it up, and it would be in your best interest to fold more than call - say call 25% and fold 75% - and base these decisions based on your opponent, and what you have done in the near past.

Edit: And since you have seen villian use this exact line against you with a strong hand, and since you showed you had a strong hand by calling that time, this is a pretty clear fold.