Bodog 10/20 LHE (10-handed)

Cobalt is SB w/ A Q . UTG is LAG. No reads beyond that.

Pre-flop:
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 raises, 3 folds, Cobalt calls, 1 fold, UTG calls

Flop (7 SB): A 5 K (3 players)
Cobalt checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, Cobalt raises, 1 fold, MP2 3-bets, Cobalt calls

Turn (6.5 BB): A (2 players)
Cobalt checks, MP2 checks

River (6.5 BB): 5 (2 players)
Cobalt bets, MP2 calls

Final Pot: 8.5 BB

I dont really see any other way to play it.

You could lead the flop, but I think I like a checkraise here better.

I think I probably lead turn personally...but can definitely see why you'd go for the checkraise.

Cobalt, I'm curious what about this hand made you post it.

I don't play nearly as much full-ring as short-handed these days, so there were a few factors. Mostly just reassuring myself that we're cool with CCing in the SB, going for the check-raise on the flop, not capping the flop, and going for the check-raise on the turn. Whenever I get duped into checking and give a free card, I get frustrated with myself.

First of all 3-bet preflop.

Second....you were going for the c/r on the turn??????? no no no no no no no

If you thought you were ahead, lead the turn OR cap the flop.
----if he was ahead on the flop, he's still ahead on the turn.


I assumed reading the HH that you thought you were behind. This hand is played well post-flop if you think you are behind on the flop. (Obviously when he checks behind on the turn, you're ahead and have to bet the river.)

Personally, I would've 3-bet preflop and called the 3-bet on the flop and led the turn.

I 3-bet pf. That makes life a lot easier.

Now on the flop, you have underrepresented your hand. Sure, you have AQ, but you've played it like ace-rag. If villina has AJ here, he's gotta think he is best. That said, it's hard to imganine him not value betting the turn and river with this type of hand, so a call dwon is fine since it won't scare away something like KQ, and you won't lose bets to hands that have you crushed.

After villian checks the turn, I may go for a check/raise, depending on how aggressive he is. He may decide to value bet a weaker ace, or KQ, or he may bluff a busted draw.

Edit: I see you were going for a check/raise on the turn. If you think you are ahead, it is much better to cap/bet, or call/bet.

What if it's a case of "I'm not sure if I'm ahead on the flop" and then "Now I know I'm ahead" on the turn?

Also, I'd be more likely to 3-bet if MP had open-raised. With UTG calling, I think 3-betting becomes much trickier, because he's likely to come along for the ride. I've also got to give credit to MP for a bigger hand than a typical open-raiser. I'm not sure it's standard to 3-bet with AQo in the SB against an UTG limp and MP2 raise, but I'm willing to reconsider that.

cobalt how are u at 10/20 already...i remember you at just a lowly 1/2 player

I was actually somewhat overrolled for 1/2 for the most part, but it was a good chance to practice short-handed limit before Bodog added bigger short-handed tables. Built most of the roll with NL over about 9 months. Finally decided to plunge back in once I was able to play 5/10 and above.

wow 2 slow played hands from a fast player

i like the way you didnt get too crazy with AQ out of position and you played it well on the turn

On this hand, I probably got about as much as I could out of a bizarrely played KJo.

I think you should bet/call the turn. Otherwise, you played it right.

A lot of people overplay AQ. If you 3-bet PF and completely miss the flop, a bet would most likely cause you fold. So, you overplayed AQ before the flop and lost more than you should have. Even worse is if you hit the flop with top pair (which is the most likely outcome), you still may be drawing to very few outs and because of your hand and the favorable odds you'll be forced to call down and lose a good amount of case. AQ isn't a strong favorite against other major hands. It's a race with a some of the hands that would call your 3-bet (middle pocket pairs). The only major hands you have dominated that could have called are AJ and lower, QJ and KQ. Against other premium hands (pocket jacks, queens, kings, ace or AK), you're pretty much screwed. In other words, you'll win mostly small pots but you have the potential to lose a heck of a lot as well. After all, it's why Doyle Brunson refuses to play AQ.

If you were going to be in position, you could probably justify a 3-bet, but not when you're out of position.

I've seen a few good players (Doc Z, Screech, etc), advocate 3-betting from the SB here, and I wasn't totally sure the first time I looked. After careful thought, I'm positive this is a 3-bet, and here's why (in typical Wangman list form):

1) It's important to make the UTG player call 2 cold. If he folds, we're perfectly happy with that, as AQ plays better with fewer players. He's shown that he's not very strong, and all hands he limps with here (unless he's a limp-reraiser), we have crushed, or beaten soundly. We don't want to let him play for just a single extra bet with a suited connector, a pocket pair, or even 2 live cards, which makes up a wide range of his holdings. 3-bet so he has to pay 2, and can't call correctly.

2) Folding the BB out is important for the same reason. AQ plays well against fewer opponents, and we'll regret it if we let the BB call (correctly) with a suited connector or gapper, a pocket pair, or something like KTs. The BB could pose a real danger here, though he is less likely to have a hand than UTG. Still, it'll be tough for him to call even with a hand that could hurt us.

3) I think you underestimate the size of MP2's range. Many decent thinking players are raising any reasonable pocket pair or 2 paint cards to isolate the UTG limper, who's basically showing his belly by limping UTG. I know I'd be isolating with a lot of hands here if I felt I had decent control over the UTG player, and had decent reads on the players behind me. I think we compete well against his range, and are probably favorites.

So, in conclusion, we're raising to (a) get value from hands that have a single bet in the pot and that we likely have either dominated or beaten soundly; or thin the field profitably with a hand that plays well against fewer players by making them fold to 2 more and (B) to get value from the MP2 raiser.


Taken separately, you could argue that neither (a) nor (B) alone dictates a raise here. But when taken together, I don't think it is very close at all. 3-bet. I haven't even mentioned how much easier the hand is to play postflop, either, and I think this hand is a good example of how 3-betting can improve visibility and win you extra bets post-flop.

Now, if you just call the MP2 raise, I don't hate the way you played the hand, but I don't really love it either. It could be tweaked.

You could cap the flop with top pair top kicker, but could be spewing, and will be beside yourself if he pops you on the turn when you lead. If you thought you were ahead when the Ace fell, I think it's a good time to lead out and call if raised. Based on the way you played the hand, I think villian could easily put you on a weakish ace, which would be reasonable. You can't fold at any point, now, so I say lead, and call down if raised If he has AJ, AT or even something like A9s, he's DEFINITELY raising you. If he has KK, you've got outs.

If you thought you were behind on the flop, you're still behind here. This line would be okay if you thought this was a WA/WB scenario, and that he just as likely had QQ JJ KQ AJ, AT A9 as AK, then it's alright to just call down. But that doesn't seem very likely, does it?

Going for a check/raise here is pretty instinctive, and I've been trying to fight the same problem myself. I have a feeling this was just an "auto-check" on the turn. Look at the baord, reevaluate, and I think you can lead.

Sorry I was so long, but I think poker is interesting, and since I'm such an awful player myself, I make myself feel good by writing mini-dissertations on relatively unimportant topics.

Agree? Disagree??

Cheers,

Wang

i was almost certain when i read this hand that i would see a bunch of responses saying fold pf

i was surprised when i saw none.

anyone fold this, because in the lower limit games i play most of the time this is an auto fold.

is there something about 10/20 that makes this an easy raise versus a probable fold (at least i think) at 2/4?

Whoa, son.... Why on Earth are you folding AQ in a 3-handed pot against an MP2 raise?

Have you been reading Lee Jones, or something? Look, tossing this hand is just ridiculous. Your opponents are MORE likely to be entering the pot (or raising the pot) with abso-trash. AQ has an even bigger edge against 2 opponents in a LOOSE game than a TAGgy game.

If you're chucking this hand for 1.5sb, even extremely OOP, without a player-specific reason (ie, MP2 only raises with AA/KK and AK), you need to seriously seriously reevaluate what you're trying to do, here.

Can you explain WHY you're folding it?

Wang

AQo in the SB is a tricky proposition in my book, and I think it's one of those hands where I vary my play a lot.

If it's a raise from a positionally-aware opponent in EP, I usually fold it.

If it's a raise from a default opponent in MP, I usually call it.

If it's a raise from a default opponent in late position (or short-handed), I usually raise it.

If there's cold-calling involved, I usually just call...unless it's a pretty big volume pot where I 3-bet for value.

I understand the arguments that are being made to 3-bet PF in this situation. Be aware that I know that I'm inviting BB and UTG to come into the pot with us...and that I'll probably have to hit to win. By 3-betting, yeah...I might isolate myself against MP2 with a hand with great value. However, one big reason I didn't 3-bet in this case is that a lot of the time, BB and UTG are going to come along for the ride anyway...so I've done little to improve my relative position...and merely served to make the pot bloatier. Also, I don't have much of a read on MP2, so I perhaps give him too much credit for raising in that position with a limper.

Cobalt, how strange to see you in the full ring games area.

Anyhow, I really don't like cold calling from SB.

If I think I'm dominated then I fold otherwise I 3-bet. The "may come for the ride" excuse doesn't sit well with me.

The MP will call of course for one more bet but the BB and UTG need a lot more to cold call 2 more bets in a full ring. If you get callers at least you can put them on a range of hands.

Obviously everything changes in the hand if you make the PFR so I'll leave the post flop game to you.

I'm thinking I'd love a strat table with you because I bet out SO often and you consistenly post threads w check-raise attempts.

3-betting from the SB with AQ makes me feel dirty. It costs way to much to drive out the BB(we are OOP the whole hand without even a pair), UTG...(said "LAG") is never folding...actually, the best way to get UTG to fold is to check/raise the PFR on flops that either hit you or didnt hit anyone. 3-betting is pretty bad, guys.

Huh?!

Hmm...lemme see...3-betting is bad for the following reasons:

[and I am only talking about UTG due to your post]

1. Folds - adds dead money in the pot
2. Calls - Even a good LAG player doesn't generally cold call 2-bets with nothing. You can put him on a range of hands and, more likely the UTG has a weaker hand than you and just put in more money.
3. Raises - you have more info on what he has

Gee...I guess telling us the decision is bad without any back-up MUST be right.

(sw)

Good post. You obviously put a lot of thought into this.
1. he never folds.
2. yes he does. No you cant. its better to check/raise a 255 flop than lead out when the pot is 9 SBs and LAG and MP2 can profitably call with any two cards. Position is important in hold'em. Its true, really.
3. A LRR from a LAG means AA every time, i know. I looked in my PT database. Its an astounding 99%.

Stop posting. You're bad for the forum.

WTF!?!

The only reason I took a sarcastic stance with wrto was because he just said "pretty bad guys" and dismissed all the posters without explaining his thoughts.

I don't know wrto and I don't have a beef with him or anything.

While I admittedly have leaks in my game YOU are DEFINITELY bad for the forum!!

What are you? wrto's lover or something?!?

Furthermore, how do you just know all these answers so perfectly?!

How do you KNOW utg NEVER folds? Are you him?! Cobalt doesn't have a strong read on the table according to his post so we don't know that yet.

Position IS important which is why I prefer folding most raises to my SB. But if I'm going to play from that position I would rather have the image of strength and 3-bet. This is just MY opinion and style.

Did I say that a reraise from the UTG meant AA everytime? Why are you putting words in my mouth!?

I've seen players 4-bet with other hands also buddy. If I know he can 4-bet here with garbage then I've learned something new about him.

Is looking up a player and learning a sin?

Stop being a jerk a$s and grow up.

fleung, I agree with you that a reasonable opponent UTG (like you or me) is going to fold most of the hands that he limped to a 3-bet from the SB. However, I find that most opponents (even in full ring) aren't reasonable in this particular regard. When they've got one bet in, they're going to throw two more in...even while risking that the original raiser will cap it.


I make posts with check-raise attempts because they're some of the more interesting hands that require analysis. It may seem like I never lead out...but I actually lead out quite a bit...it's just that those hands don't get posted as often.