10/20 Play Money Razz. Trying to learn straightforward play. I am trying to get in as many hands in as possible, 2-8 handed. I am not sure if play money is the best place to find serious players who actually try to play, but this table was pretty good about it for a while. I am looking for advice on reads, odds, correct plays.



Seat 1: Villian (585)
Seat 3: Hero (853)
Seat 5: Meh 1 (2,598)
Seat 6: Meh 2 (3,881)

Everyone antes.

*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to Villian [9d]
Dealt to Hero [Qh 4s] [6h]
Dealt to Meh 1 [8c]
Dealt to Meh 2 [6s]
Villian is high with [9d]
Villian brings in for 3
Hero calls 3
Meh 1 folds
Meh 2 calls 3

No one representing strength by completing, but that was how the table was going....

*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to Villian [9d] [2c]
Dealt to Hero [Qh 4s 6h] [4d]
Dealt to Meh 2 [6s] [Kc]
Hero checks
MDA fan checks
Villian checks


Ok, I paired up with a good card, but my board is in the lead. Should I take the lead here and bet? Q644 isn't promising but a 64 board looks it...



*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to Villian [9d 2c] [7c]
Dealt to Hero [Qh 4s 6h 4d] [5d]
Dealt to Meh 2 [6s Kc] [Jd]
Hero bets 20
Meh 2 folds
Villian raises to 40
Hero calls 20


So I lead out with a nice fifth street, I get raised. What do you put the villian on? What's the correct response? I think I put em on about a Q9 made semi-bluff, trying to buy it there so I called, thinking anything 9 or under would put me in the lead.


*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to Villian [9d 2c 7c] [Ts]
Dealt to Hero [Qh 4s 6h 4d 5d] [Ac]
Hero checks
Villian bets 20
Hero calls 20


I caught good, but I think they did too. I put em on a T9 now, versues my Q6. So any T,9,8,7,3,2 would help me. Something like 20 outs? So 3 to 2 dog? Is that about right?



*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to Hero [Qh 4s 6h 4d 5d Ac] [7d]
Hero checks
Villian checks


Checking a 76 heads up... I'm an amature. Probably a bad move right??


*** SHOW DOWN ***
Villian shows [9c 2s 9d 2c 7c Ts Ah] (T,9,7,2,A)
Hero shows [Qh 7d 6h 4d 5d Ac 4s] (7,6,5,4,A)
Hero wins the pot (137) with 7,6,5,4,A


So they had hole cards of 2,9,A (don't know the order) but probably paired on the end so ace was there already, because I think they would have bet had the ace come on the river. So they started with a (A9)9 or (A2)9 and the latter is most likely a "complete" hand so A99 seems most likely.


*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 137 | Rake 0
Seat 1: Villian showed [9c 2s 9d 2c 7c Ts Ah] and lost with T,9,7,2,A
Seat 3: Hero showed [Qh 7d 6h 4d 5d Ac 4s] and won (137) with 7,6,5,4,A
Seat 5: Meh 1 folded on 3rd St.
Seat 6: Meh 2 folded on 5th St.



Where can I improve this play? Should Q64 be mucked 4 handed against a complete? Should Q644? Any help is appreciated.

Third: I'm confused when you say no one is representing strength by completing? So do you mean no one's folding to a complete? if so, then the call is good. If not, then you should be completing.

Fourth: The check is good. Only bet on 4th if you think you can push out players. At a play money table, I wouldn't count on it.

Fifth: Your bet's awesome. The call is very very bad, as the only thing you're beating right now is a very bad bluff, and you hardly have a draw along with that.

Sixth: As it stands, you now have picked up a draw. and it's a decent one, as it will probably beat whatever villain has. A check is good, but a bet is just as good, as you can re-represent strength, as if that ace made your hand. You probably get called there, but if you get raised, then another call is good.

Seventh: You make your draw. Why are you not betting? Give Villain credit for 9-high and bet. He'll call or fold here more than likely.

To answer your other question: yes, you would be folding Q46 to a complete.

Thanks. And I didn't mention this but I do realize I caught lucky the last 3 rounds, I was more likely to lose than win, so mucking after that raise probably was correct.

What I meant after third street was that the table was pretty unassertive, meaning no one was bluffing for ante steals. I think the last complete was 4 or five hands ago, they had 54A I think. I doubt I will come across a table that unagressive once I get in real money tables.

Another thing I need help with is starting hands. I've been playing more than researching, so I haven't seen any razz strategy sites. (not yet anyway) So, A23 is the best starter, and KKK being the worst. How do you go about ranking them? My bushwacker system is simply adding the three values together, and under 20 I play, under 16 I raise. Pairs I value at 15 and it's original value.

A2K is 1+2+13 so 16, boarderline raise?

678 is 6+7+8 so 21, muck unless short handed.

AA2 is 1+15+2 so 18, will call one bet but not two?

So according to this, A2K is better than a 567. Comments?

and Q46, my starter for the aforementioned hand, would be a 22, so not great but perhaps playable for one bet 4 handed?


Thanks for your help.

Sorry, dude, your system bites the big one.

Check out twodimes.net and run the odds on a number of matchups. As you can see, 567 is MUCH better than A2K, a 7:3 favourite -- pretty logical when you think about it -- the K is totally worthless, so this is basically a 2 card hand against 3 card hand, meaning you need to catch 3 good cards, and he only needs to catch 2.

pokenum -mc 500000 -r ac 2h ks - 5s 6s 7c
Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Ac 2h 148647 29.73 351227 70.25 126 0.03 0.297
6s 5s 7c 351227 70.25 148647 29.73 126 0.03 0.703

I've only recently started playing razz, and I'm still learing, but I can say that the most important thing in choosing a starting hand is the highest card. Three cards to a five or six is a raising and reraising hand. Three cards to a 7 is a raise in most situations. Three cards to an 8 is often playable. Your side cards are not that important if you have a good hand -- i.e. 567 is a bigger favourite against 9A2 than 7A2 is against 567. If you have a bad card in the hole, though, you want your other cards to be as good as possible, although a hand like KA2 will never be playable.

You should be putting as much as you can in early with your good hands. Especially if people are in with high up cards. For example if you raise with 732 and an 8 and 10 call and a 3 reraises, you should reraise -- your hand is probably worse than the 3's, but you're never a big dog, and you want to put as much pressure as you can on the other hands. Same situation if a bunch of people limp to you -- raise, because this is your best chance to get value from people who have J's and 10's in the hole.

This is where you lost me man. You do not want to pump the pot early on. You do not want to give proper odds for people to call you on later streets with weak draws, but still draws that could beat you later down the line.

Completes are good. Bets on 4th street are good, if you think you can pick up the pot on 4th with one. Raises on 4th are generally not smart. You want to save heavy betting for 5th street and after, and if you saved those bets from 4th, then you're giving bad odds for people to call with draws that could beat you.

Here's a great discussion on this topic (based off stud hi, but applicable in Razz too) that backs up that theory, and actually references sklansky, who agrees with the concept. KowboyKoop's 1st & 2nd posts on this are the basis on why betting heavy early is -EV.

It is +EV to pump the pot whenever you have an edge. If I have 723, i'm ready to put in as many bets as I can against people with 10s and 9s up. I don't care if this gives them odds to call all the way to the river, I'll will the hand more often than they will, so every bet they put in is increasing my future winnings.

it's also +EV to play the hand right. If your opponent has 3 or 4 low cards on 4th, they're calling almost every time, and that drags in almost everyone behind them, as they're now getting proper pot odds to call. it's a domino effect, one that's easily fixable by not betting 4th street unless you can drive your opponent out of the pot.

if you're pumping the pot every single time you have a good draw on 4th street, you're not leaving yourself with an escape plan if it doesn't make it on 5th, but someone else's does. and then what? you're either stuck in a tough situation of trying to figure out whether your draw is now live, or you're priced in to calling anyway into what could be the cooler hand for you.

or even worse, you give some bizarre hand the right odds to call you down, until they catch the draw to beat you on 7th, then you're pot stuck in the hand again. now you spend the rest of your session on tilt over that hand, and trying to recoup your losses from the big hands you lose.

and then, when you come on posting about the "bad beat suckouts," and post hand histories, we'll then be calling you an idiot for giving your opponents the proper odds to call. then it's no longer a bad beat, it's a "i played this hand wrong and they took advantage of it" beat.

you need to save your bets for when they can matter. picking up small pots is not a cardinal sin in poker! every pot you win does not have to be a monster. and every small pot you pick up is to pad you for when you do lose those massive pots.

and pushing every slight edge in poker is a great way to go broke. this is not just a razz thing. just ask any poker player in any game, of any discipline. selective aggression, not guessing you have a slight edge and pumping the pot due to it, is key in this game.

dont play play money ever

Hey Hanguk, we may have to agree to disagree on this issue, but I'll try to respond to your points and explain my opinion here as best I can.

if you're pumping the pot every single time you have a good draw on 4th street, you're not leaving yourself with an escape plan if it doesn't make it on 5th, but someone else's does. and then what? you're either stuck in a tough situation of trying to figure out whether your draw is now live, or you're priced in to calling anyway into what could be the cooler hand for you.

For me, this is a good argument IN FAVOUR of betting 4th with a good draw, you give yourself odds to take one off if you catch bad on 5th because of the money that went into the pot when you were the favourite.

And what about the times when you catch perfect on 5th and your opponents all catch bad and fold to your bet? Now you've just lost a bunch of bets that they would have called on 4th.

What about the times when your opponents make a pair on 4th and would have folded to your bet, only to catch good on 5th and call you down to beat you? Now you've lost the whole pot by checking 4th!

Plus, alot of your opponents don't know or don't care about pot odds and will call you down with anything. Since they won't fold anyway, there's no reason not to keep betting as long as you feel your hand is good. Checking is simply giving up value.

or even worse, you give some bizarre hand the right odds to call you down, until they catch the draw to beat you on 7th, then you're pot stuck in the hand again.

The extra money you win when they call you down and don't hit will make up for the times that they do.

In the long run, there's no way the small amount of value that you might gain by checking fourth to get someone to fold on 5th makes up for the value you lose by not pumping the pot with the best hand.

you need to save your bets for when they can matter. picking up small pots is not a cardinal sin in poker! every pot you win does not have to be a monster. and every small pot you pick up is to pad you for when you do lose those massive pots.

I don't like to win a small pot where I could have won a big one.
I don't mind losing a massive pot as long as I got my money in with the best of it.

and pushing every slight edge in poker is a great way to go broke. this is not just a razz thing. just ask any poker player in any game, of any discipline.

Pushing silght edges is the way to win in poker! This is especially true in Razz, where the edges on 3rd and 4th are usually very small, and you can never count on getting alot of action on later streets because it is usually pretty obvious to your opponents when they are beat. If you're not ready to put money in unless you've got a 5 card hand and a board lock, I don't see how you're going to win in this game unless you're playing against total jackasses.

selective aggression, not guessing you have a slight edge and pumping the pot due to it, is key in this game

If you are playing razz and you have 723 against someone with a 10 doorcard, you're not guessing that you have an edge, you know that you have one, and if you don't push it, then you're not playing correctly.

I'll tell you what's all F'd up, I started a H.O.R.S.E. freeroll tournament at 330am on full tilt, I just got done. Placed second!! I crushed my opponent in Razz and OHL, he killed me in stud though. second out of 780... Sweet! Now good night.

we'll agree to disagree on the pot odds part. i just seriously think you need to read up on the odds in razz, as there's a few key differences than in other games.

there was two specific parts that i want to touch on.


when that situation arises, you SHOULD be observant enough to know whether your beat or not. if you're counting the cards that have left the deck that can beat you, and observe your opponents good enough, then 7 times out of 10, you should be able to know where you stand. if you can't, then you're clearly not doing one, the other, or both, and need to take a step down to micros (or to play money if you're already at micros), and start working on those fundamentals to figure that out.



i can't deny the truth behind that. even at 8/16 on FTP, there's some donk plays almost every hand, and seemingly almost every player makes them. my PT stats right now currently shows almost 7 out of 10 players (could be more, i'm not at home, and don't have the stats up in front of me) as losing players. but you can't just take that and assume that every players bad and will do this. i don't think you are, but this should just be incentive enough to learn to play the game as correctly and as fundamentally sound as possible, because if you get in the instances where you're facing a stronger or an equally skilled player, then you will definitely be able to handle the weaker players.

I used to play Razz play money STT at FT to get the basics down, and it actually helped a little. There were several regulars who took it seriously.

After we eliminated the idiots who were spewing chips, we had some pretty good battles. Probably the only time I ever learned at playmoney tables.

Give them a try, maybe you'll be lucky like me and find a few players who try their best. I never found anyone actually trying at the 10/20 play tables, so I gave up on them.