Let me begin by saying I am not writing this to knock Christianity, but to better understand it. Let’s also assume a couple more things: God is all knowing, all powerful, and God will send me to hell because I don’t believe in Jesus.

My question is this: What is the point of all this? Why did God create me if he knew I would eventually make the choices that would send me to hell? (Lets leave the issue of free will aside for the moment.)

God did not have “hope” that I would turn out OK. “Hope” implies uncertainty and an all-knowing God has no uncertainty. In fact he knew, from the moment he created the universe, that poor little Jerry Lundegaard was bound for hell. So why does he bother? Why play this little game with our souls when he knows the outcome?

I have a feeling what you will say: “The Lord works in mysterious ways, and we
can’t hope to understand.” Fair enough, certainly that is a statement that can end all discussion. But, if God is all powerful, couldn’t he have set up the universe in some other way? In a way that does not require myself and every other non-Christian in the world to go to hell? An all powerful being is bound by nothing. So he CHOSE a plan where some people have to go to hell.

Maybe he did it so I could experience life on Earth. Well, OK. I think life is at times very very good, and at times very very bad, and the rest of the time pretty boring. Why not make life on Earth better? You may say “We have to experience the bad times, so that we can experience the good times. Good has no meaning without bad.”

But is that really true? Couldn’t an all-powerful being create a universe where is WAS possible to experience good feelings without also feeling pain? Again, this God CHOSE to make things this way, it may be a “mysterious plan we cant understand” but he intentionally chose to put pain in it for some reason.

I’ll stop now. Sorry this is so long. Looking for all perspectives on this issue.

Romans 9

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."

29It is just as Isaiah said previously:
"Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah."
30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

well the short answer is we dont know why God did what He did but since that isnt enough for you or really anybody else lets get to the longer version

If you create something that isnt capable of disobeying you then what have you done? You have created robots. they cant truly love, cant truly hurt, cant truly do many things mainly b/c they dont have that option. To create something that could not sin is to create something without free will.

by creating something that does have the ability to do something wrong, yo uhave also given them the ability to understand what it means to do the right thing. What it means to love, what it means to actually have a choice.

Is it a risk from our standpoint? Sure it is. But by having the choice, we exist with the passion and desires that we have. Without it, we are just robots

same point in different forms has been raised in at least 6 threads since this forum expanded. an all-knowing god is logically incompatable with anything resembling what we define as free will, making the whole christian "plan" of salvation pointless.

Since when is knowing that someone will chose something, choosing it for them?

To steal from SNL:

If I could offer to make you the leading scientist in your field or give you mad cow, I know you're not gonna choose mad cow

... and I'm not even God. Just because God knows you're gonna choose something, does NOT mean he's choosing it for you. How is this not obvious?

cruel experiment? Asking why God does anything is useless, as we assume he has a higher thought process than humans.

The real question is why make right and wrong? What if you could do literally anything you wanted with no shame, guilt or consequence?Go crazy with it- anything that could possibly jump into your head is all good. You could walk into A KFC, pull down your pants and doodie in grandmas 3 piece special and nobody would even blink. Or, you could just grab her keys and take her car- it would not even be stealing, that would not exist, at least not as we know it, there would just be action and reaction, unfettered.


See how smart God is?

So your saying God "invented" morals and values in order for life to have a point?

No, I am saying that in the midst of chaos, there is still order, by design- without an innate sense of morality we truly would be nothing more than talking meatsticks.

There is knowing and then there is knowing. In your example, you think very strongly that the person isn't going to choose the mad cow, but they might; maybe they have a death wish or something, or a curiosity about the illness, or a desire to prove you wrong, whatever... the point is you do not know what they will do, just you can guess with high probability what their choice is going to be. Constrast this with an all-knowing God who absolutely knows every choice we will ever make. Then, whether or not God actually is making the choices for us, he is making us suffer through them all with the exact knowledge of what the end result is going to be.

I personally find it hard to believe in such a God, as creating all of existence just to have it follow the exact path you always knew it would follow seems pretty pointless and sadistic to me. Of course, my finding it hard to believe doesn't make it any less true if it happens to be true; however I will choose to not worship such a God, but to be fair he already knew I would make that choice anyways.

bolded parts what i love about you. It shows ur ignorance. You try to make sense of what is going on based on what man has defined it as. problem is we dont understand even .5% of everything yet you continually rely on man...

So the final answer is, "We don't know."?

Back to Jerry's main question (from what I understand).

Let's assume God is all-knowing and all-powerful. He could have created the world however he saw fit, and he knows exactly what is going to happen.

Why would he create a world where, according to the Bible, the vast majority of people are going to hell? And the OP specifically sounds like he is going to hell. Shouldn't he be pissed at God for damning him to an eternity of fire/brimstone/etc? Why should he worship this asshole?

Jerry,

brvheart posted the exact verses that I was going to post, especially since you are trying to understand the Christian worldview. God is infinitely just and righteous. For God to remain righteous and just, He must love and seek to glorify that which is infinitely valuable, namely, Himself. If God did not seek to glorify Himself, He would not be God, for it is right to glorify and magnify that which is infinitely valuable.

Therefore, He created a world in which He would ultimately get the most glory and exaltation. If He created a world without sin, many parts of God's nature would be never seen or demonstrated to the world, such as His wrath, justice, righteousness, etc. If everyone went to Hell because of their sin (which we all deserve Hell), then God's love, mercy, grace, etc. would not be seen fully. Hence, God has so designed the world in the way that it is so that His glory and excellence and magnificence will be most fully seen and admired throughout all eternity.

The death of Christ and eternal hell is God's shout of how horrible and horrendous it is to sin against God, because "all have sinned and FALL SHORT of God's glory" (Rom. 3:23). For God to be righteous, He MUST punish sin in proportion to the nature of the offense. God is infinitely righteous, and sin against an infinitely holy God deserves an infinitely long punishment. Our only hope is Jesus Christ's death and resurrection. Christ died so that all who will trust Him will be saved from the wrath and punishment of God. You were created for God's glory, and you were created to know God. You will only find true joy and happiness in fulfilling the purpose for which you were created. Jesus Christ came so that we might know God personally. God nows commands all people to turn from their sin and trust Christ alone for their salvation from their sin and from hell in order that they might experience knowing the One for whom they were created...

That is why God created you in a nutshell, according to the Bible.

And the quoted part is what i dispise about you. It shows, yet again, your complete and total arrogance---not to mention it reveals the hypocrisy of you holding yourself out as an upstanding Christian.

Schmuck.

But doesn't all that make you want to punch God in the face for being such an arrogant prick?

Seriously.

are you saying Mattnxtc is God?

No- I would not go that far. I will say that there are times when I think of this line of thinking as well, but, it's pointless, because I did not make the rules. God did. I may or may not like them- it does not matter, I have no control over the situation. I know that doens't help you but there is not much more that I can say.

An innate sense of morality can quite plainly be ascribed to evolutionary survival.

and God damned him how? You see the problem. Its like a murderer killin somebody and sayin that the TV made him do it. Its just stupid.

the real truth is this. You stand before the judge for your crimes and instead of sentencing you to hell for what you have done, he gives you a second chance. He offers you a way out....and what do you do? spit in his face and then complain hes not fair.

You have nobody to blame but yourself

Not true. Our OP (i think it's jerry) CAN blame God...who made him exactly the way he is, knowing that he would be a sinner going to hell.

You're still missing the question.

what have i said taht arrogant?

I am not sittin here claiming that what "man knows" makes it impossible to believe in God. Further those comments from a guy who uses the excuse that "we dont have enough knowledge to know" but then turns around and says that according to man, God doesnt exist. do you see the problem. He is willing to admit that man knows not even .5% of what is out there but then claims that "man knows" God doesnt exist. I realize yall dont like me b/c i am willing and able to challenge yall at your level, but please dont be blind to the bad arguments your collegues make. You should be workin with them to educate them not backin their bad arguments.

What hypocricy do I hold? Please enlighten me as to what i say that makes me a hypocrite. My beliefs are out in the open.

I also am not being arrogant. I have not claimed to know anything more than any of yall except in terms of teh bible only b/c i know i have read it more and studied it more than most of you. Thats nto being arrogant, thats just using common sense. Using this line anybody who actually studies anything and gives an opinion to anybody who knows less is arrogant and i dont think you want to go down that road.



Who gave jerry the ability to choose? God did

Who chose to sin? Jerry did

Who offers Jerry a second chance? God does

Who says no to that chance and then complains about it? Jerry

So no he has nothing to blame God for. God has given Jerry the instructions has told Jerry what he must do, Heck has made it as easy as possible for Jerry. And whats jerry want to do? complain about it.

jerry has no excuse to not take the gift God has given him. God never made jerry sin. Jerry chose to sin and now he has to live with the consequences

Or it could be an innate sense of morality.

are you really willin to back this belief? just wondering?

What about "bolded parts what i love about you. It shows ur ignorance." isn't arrogant? You are seemingly taking joy in someone's ignorance and throwing it in his face. It is unbelievably insulting to talk to someone like that. It isn't what you say, necessarily, it is HOW you say it. This type of response is quite common for you lately and most of us have ignored it but i'm having a hard time doing that lately. There is this notion called tact--and you, my friend, could use some. OK, a lot.



It is the boastful, prideful and arrogant nature of your posts that are so un-christian-like. You hold your beliefs above the beliefs of all others as being the one and only interpretation of the bible. You are quick to judge others' competence/intelligence/etc. In short, you're an argumentative bully and a prick. If you're REALLY looking to enlighten someone--try using less abrasive arguing techniques, a little less smugness, a lot less arrogance and maybe you're posts won't be viewed with such contempt.

Yes. Would you like me to?

Or you might realize that the only way crow learns is when you force him to own up to what he says. You havent been here long but if you go look at his posts youll realize that I have played nice with him for a while. Now I am forced to call him out so that he cannot sit here and avoid the truth. Speaking of that we are now off topic. The fact is that he like others makes a comment that lacks any sort of justification and when you call him out on it he like others avoids it.

all can ignore me or wahtever its not really a big deal. I know most of yall are here lookin to make fun of the "crazy christians" and i am more pleased that yall aer forced to attack me when yall come up short argument wise. Just as long as everybody realizes that many of the arguments posed lack any sort of justification in them.

And if any of yall were here actually saerching for the truth that would be another thing. How do i boast? What do i boast about? What do I show pride in? these are all more accusations yall make. I am sorry but I played the tact game with most of yall for long enough. It is time to be blunt. It is time to call you out. You may think its unbiblical but trust me, the bible backs me on what I do. There are plenty of passages where Jesus, Paul and Peter all got blunt with the "wise men"

You all came in with the thought you could "outsmart" christians. That you could use big words and quote all these abstract things. When yall get called out by others and myself I watch the person attacks flow. I have done nothign worse than any of yall yet you look to blame me

Yall ignore me mainly b/c I have challenged you on every step. I asked for evidence in the monty situation and still nobody can provide anything. I will not let yall make statements that are untrue or unjustified. I would expect the same from yall. Why must yall be defensive when you get called out on it?




yeah lets here it. I wouldnt mind hearing your erasoning behind it.

Ill say now for the sake of the discussion that i believe the opposite and will post an article on it eventually as to why i believe what i believe.

but u know im always open to new things

http://www.evolutionaryethics.com/

There actually are many writings on this topic. For me, the most logical argument surrounds this statement...



I'm not sure if morals and ethics have been hard-coded into our genetic makeup. Obviously, I believe in evolution (and am impressed by anyone who does not), but this part of the process in my opinion is up for debate. Frankly, I don't understand why Christians are so against the idea that God created the Universe and started the action...but didn't "build" our bodies piece by piece.

i have never said god doesnt exist. i'm agnostic.

i said free will and the designing/intervening/all-knowing christian version of god are logically incompatable, which is one of many reasons i think that if god exists the christian version of him is inaccurate.



most here do not consider you at an equal intellectual level. most just talk down to you trying to educate you (feel free to post a poll if you doubt that). if your approach was a little more humble you might actually learn something here like the rest of us are.



it is not that simple.

who created jerry's environment and genetics such that his choices are predictable and his sense of choice only illusional? (you said yourself several times there is only one path we can take). GOD did.

jerry is complaining about this because god MADE him (and me) so that we cannot believe in him - we are NOT choosing not to beieve - we see no reason to believe, and unlike you we don't have the genetic personality makeup to brainwash ourselves into doing so. if christianity is true we are predestined to go to hell and there's nothing we can do about it.

no christian who has posted in this thread has come remotely close to addressing this issue.




it's pointless to tell people who is full of it. they are quite capable of deciding that for themselves.

Matt,

Just so you know, every time you say you are on a higher intellectual level than the rest of us it just proves the fact that you're borderline delusional. The fact that you're the only one around here to never concede any points is very indicative of the fact that you're the ignorant one...not us.

I bet you have no idea what I'm talking about, though. You'll probably just look right past the words and just assume we all hate good Christians like you.

I agree, and I know what I said... that was the point. I'm not God yet I can know with almost near certainity. God is much much greater than I, obviously, and he has no problem seeing our hearts and knowing our minds. And as for 'making' us suffer through our own choices? That's funny, because that almost sounded like a democrat... "It's not his fault he doesn't want to get a job, let pay for him to stay home and watch TV".

God DID create a world without sin... we chose to sin.




These are wonderfully humble quotes.





We can't make you read what we write. We've said this TOO MANY times. Once should be enough... Here's the deal. God KNOWS who will choose to follow him, and to say that you guys are predestined to hell is ridiculous.. you are all in your early 20's presumably, and you have 70 years more to live. Only God knows what you will learn, realize, and he will show to you in that time. If person A is predestined for destruction, then what we can do about it? nothing. The issue is HOW do you know that person A is predestined for destruction. You don't, only God knows.





I certainly hope I never conceded any points...

and i have claimed to be smarter than anyone?

what should i concede? Most of yall come in with a very limited understanding of the bible and try to act like you know what you are talkin about. Very few here understand philosophy as a whole but try to act like they understand it

I have alread started several threads to get a better understandin of the science yall claim....

I asked tim to explain his view on moral evolution

so again it appears that I have asked for info on peoples views.

How am i ignorant? Do I make a claim that I cant back? Unlike some of yall, when i make a claim i provide evidence for it.

Like i have said for months, the challenge to find errors in my biblical answers is always open. If i post something that yall can disprove, by all means do it. But dont be so defensive when i expect the same from you.

they are accurate observations stated in hope that matt will stop his pointless personal attacks.



none of that addresses the issue either. it sounds like you are just conceding that free will is illusional.

i forgot, You dont believe the christian God exists. I forgot i had to clarify to avoid you makin these statements. Your "reasoning" still doesnt hold. You try to define a superior being with inferior terms and then wonder what the problem is. You dont know enough to define Him yet you attempt to. Interesting



funny. I have yet to see anybody have to "talk down to me." I have yet to see anybody have to "dumb" it down for me. In fact I have had to do taht several times with you. I highly doubt any of yall are here to learn only to say what limited things you know. Its why you have to go in circles. I have talked the bible, science, and philosophy so far and will always talk about more. Sure i dont understand all the new cutting edge science but heck i started a thread to talk about it didnt i? So dont act like you know much.



another attempt to cop out of the situation.

Bible actually spends quite a bit of time talkin about "people like you"

You come in with your ego and pride and your "wisdom" and talk about how rough it is. Its like someone saying the TV made him kill people or Mcdonalds forced him to eat himself fat.

Its what makes modern society pathetic. Nobody wants to take the blame

The simple fact is this. You have been introduced to God. You have His words to read whenever you want. You have people who study Him for a living, yet YOU CHOOSE to reject Him. You have no excuse for not believing other than you just dont want to believe. There is no genetic make up makin me more suseptible to believing Him. The truth is I chose to seek Him and He found me, You choose to spit in His face and he hardens your heart until its to late.

Its not some big mystery. It has been written in the bible for 2000 years exactly whats going on.



Yet people still tend to side with others who basically offer no proof of anything.

I greatly respect people like Tim as he is one of the few who always backs up what he says. I dont agree with a lot of what he says but i can respect a guy who is willing to offer proof. Yall hold me accountable to provide proof and when i expect the same, Tim is one of the few to step up and actually provide stuff

Wrong. We have a nonsensical storybook that a lot of people in this part of the world at this point in time profess to be absolute fact. There are similar storybooks in different parts of the world (i.e. the Koran), and before people liked to write out books, they told different stories altogether (i.e. Greek mythology). Nothing about this information suggests the divine writings of a superior being.

When people become atheists, it's not because they see God there, and decide they want to "spit in his face". It's because they see no real evidence of God's existence whatsoever, and find the whole concept very consistent with a made-up story. They're using their brains, and figuring things out for themselves rather than blindly following what's out there. Why do you think there are so few Christians in the Middle East and so few Muslims in America. It's because most religious people don't honestly weigh facts to find out the truth; they just blindly follow the people around them and go with the stories that are popular in their region.

You're missing the point. The above posters aren't saying that the omniscience of God is why they do bad things. They are just trying to reconcile the apparent contradiction between an omniscient God and human free will.

i'm not attempting to define god. i'm agnostic.




nice sermon

not in the least...do you see why

I'll go on the record as saying I've done this. I don't necessarily feel good about it, and occasionally I've apologized, but it still happened. I've talked down, I've dumbed it down, I've dumbed it down some more, and afterwards lost my cool a couple of times.

I'm shocked that this has gone undetected. I broke my condescention-o-meter when typing some of those posts.

probably about as often as any christian has had to explain the bible to you, or anybody with a degree in philosophy has had to explain that to yall

Actually considering my upbringing and schooling, it isn't even close. Sorry pal.

and somehow I am the arrogant one?

but keep dreaming

Matt used to be alright to deal with, like 6 months ago. Look at all the "yalls" ands realize that you are now dealing with the real Matt, who I pegged long ago. He is what he is, and arrogance goes hand in hand with the deceived believer.

Arrogance or honest appraisal? Who can say? What is certain is that my arrogance isn't on trial here and that it's difficult to get elementary evolutionary theory across to you without turning it into a puppet show first.

hahahahah

best part about this is watchin people like you try and show how big and smart you are. I love hwo people who know little rephrase what little they know over and over hoping nobody notices.

as for your arrogant comments. I promise you that nothing you said is remotely challenging as you wish it to be. I just really enjoy watchin some of yall contradict yourselves with your comments.

Isnt it ironic that im the "dumb" one yet im the only one who continuously corrects and challenges yall when it comes to your contradictory statements. How come none of you educated people are correcting your collegues?

Free Will is the gift. Hell is the built in acountability for free will. Checks and balances from the begining. Throw in destiny, fate, divine intervention, and sin and that's a spicy meat-a-ball!!!! It's God's pay-per-view. It's the greatest show on Earth, litterally!

But then again, I'm agnostic, a hedonist, and a heathen so what do I know from heaven or hell eh?

Flame away, oh righteous ones.

Are you God? Because it's the only way you could make such bold and silly statements.






???? I'm confused by this rip on Matt, Lois.

apparently b/c im from texas and use yall im a deceiver? I dunno.

I think he is still mad that I said baptism isnt necessary for salvation and that the only 2 verses he has have alread been explained

Not a deceiver- deceived. There is a difference, mainly that you aren't quite smart enough. As far as the baptism issue- your soul, not mine. I can hand it to you on a silver platter, if you choose to still believe in the deception that is on you.






Open your eyes- Matt has become near intolerable since this whole religous section opened, and his arrogant tone and smarmy ways are plain to see. Why do you think I barely bother with him anymore? It's an excercise in futility that I just don't have the time for.

Lois, Matt and I have both been baptized, so we are cool in your book too.