DanielNegreanu
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 5:12 AM
You are playing in a $10,000 buy in WPT event and are in the this first limit about 30 minutes into the event. Your stack is at 10,225 when you look down at QQ from middle position and no one has entered the pot in front of you.
The blinds are 25-50 so you decided to raise it and make it 150 to go. Everyone folds to the player on the button who re-raises it to 750 and both blinds fold back to you.
You have never seen this player before and have no idea what he has or what he is capable of. You assume he plays pretty straight forward as you haven't seen anything strange thus far from him. He has 10,000 in chips so you have him barely covered.
JaysonWeber
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 6:35 AM
Well, I'm scared here... 2 hands that can beat me. I guess I would fold here in a lot of instances, depends what the guy LOOKS like. If he's a younger kid or seems to be loose, i'm calling, if he seems to be the tight, quite type I'll fold, no point in risking it.
I voted for fold, You have 1/10th of your stack out there in the first limit on what you c0nsider a possible coinflip. There are times where I would call this, for the same reason I stated I'd fold. It IS the first round, and theres time to build your stack back up... really depends on what the player looks like to be honest lol.
JimmyWellington
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 7:05 AM
OK, let's look at each option. To me, go all in makes no sense. He's only going to call if you're beat. Although he MIGHT lay down KK if he thinks your re-raise means AA. The general rule when it comes to raises is that a huge raise usually looks like you don't want a call. The risk/reward ratio is too high. The levels are 2 hours and you have plenty of time to build up chips, there's no reason to go crazy on a hand that (without knowing anything about the player) is most likely a coinflip (AK), or crushing you (AA,KK).
Call -
To me, this is an option. It's going to depend on how confident you are on your post flop play. Based on the previous betting, he's representing a good hand. You gotta figure out if he's got a big pair, or AK. I'm just going on standard play here, since you don't know anything about him. Also, depending on your image at this point, just calling him might scare him. You raised it up fr0m middle position, and when he raised, you just called him. If I didn't know that a player was weak, and I was in a 10k tourny, I'm going to be wary of a raise - re-raise - call.
Fold -
This was my first option. It might look like playing scared, but at this point, we haven't really seen too much. There's plenty of time to build up chips, and this is looking like a confrontation that you might very well have the worst of. Also, by folding here, you are setting him up for a repop later. If he's making a move on you and you lay down what is probably a good hand, then you know he'll try it again. Maybe at that time you've seen him do it a couple times before and come over the top of him.
So I vote fold, with call as second option if you're really confident in post flop play.
KramitDaToad
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 7:28 AM
I think you have to call here. You are obviously worried about AA or KK but it is equally (actually more) likely you are up against AK where you can be a 57% favorite. On your good days it may even be AQ, JJ or even worse and things are rosy.
True you will be out of position, but pairs are not as constricted as other cards because post flop they are not drawing hands.
The implied odds for hitting the set are good as you are both deep, and you can assume to have his hand defined to a small range of possibilities
I you are prepared to let it go to an A or K on the flop it's not going to cost you any more that the 600 to call.
Worst case scenario is a low flop with no A, K or Q which will leave you with some work still to do, however in this case you are ahead 16/28 times if all he re-raises with are AA, KK & AK.
I think the final deciding factor is you are showing the table early that you are not easily pushed off your raises - it might even be worth the 600 to take the flop and check/fold to any non Q flop to 'buy' this reputation.
I don't see going all-in as an option and thus folding is second to calling for the above reasons.
Edit: Daniel has just added the reraise option. I think this is out as 600 will let us see the flop and define the hand so much more. (ie A or K bye-bye!)
Wlleiotl
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 7:37 AM
Call or reraise, folding to an all in. My main worry is if i reraise, will he just call? that way im playing for a very big pot and with no idea of where i'm at. I'd probably just call, bet out the pot and see what he does. if he's got the balls to reraise with AK, JJ or TT then he can have the pot, but I think I'm looking at AA or KK far more often if he raises. Folding to a single raise is obviously terrible, unless I have some reputation for only raising preflop with monsters and moving all in is terrible because you shut out any action with any hand you're ahead of and only get called when you're behind.
So I think reraising isn't horrible, but if he calls then I'm in a tricky spot. So I call, bet out 1200 or so on any non Q flop, folding to a raise and on a Q flop ill either check to him or make a weak lead. I'll bet A high flops hoping he can fold KK-TT and i dont have to show, but if he calls I'm check folding. As an overpair I'll bet out, hoping he folds overcards, then if I'm raised I can easily pass, if I'm called I'll check to him and he'll probably want to check it down with most hands. If he does bet the turn I probably pass, if he checks and then bets the river when i check, I'll probably call most bets, depending on the board.
There's no need to be getting into massive pots with QQ this early, then again you can't fold it, what are you going to play if you do?
Thanks Daniel for a good one. After the last one you've pulled out a thinker with different answers that can be right, it's just about getting that magical best answer among them.
wheezer16
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 7:56 AM
Fold. He may be behind you or with AK may be offering a coin toss, but not worth the risk at this point.
Calling with the hope of a queen on the flop ain't worth it. It's still early...save your chips for another hand.
troutsmart
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 8:28 AM
I flat call. I have position for when the flop comes down. I might be facing several hands that I dominate, such as JJ, TT, AQ, KQ, etc. I don't like reraising preflop, because for the same $1750, I can bet on the flop a pot sized bet and gain more information.
Thus I play it like this.
I call preflop. There is approxiamately 1500 in the pot.
On the flop, I'll make a few different moves.
If he bets the pot...I'm willing to risk a large portion of my stack here. I'll make it 4000 to go when he bets 1750. I'll consider a fold to an all-in here.
If he bets smaller... say 1000... I'll most likely make it 2200 - 2500 to go and look for his reaction.
If he checks the flop... I'll bet between 1250 and 1750, and look for his reaction.
If I feel I'm beat after the flop...I'll slow down
My point is this... I likely have the player beat preflop...it is possible that they have KK or AA, but unless I get an amazing read, I'm not folding here, though it might make sense, being that a small portion of my stack is committed. I would prefer to play this hand post flop, where I can get a stronger read.
I'm also a player who likes to accumulate chips early or exit early. This is an ideal situation to do either, though I'd say I come out ahead in the majority here.
bigedjr17
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 8:31 AM
QUOTE (troutsmart)
I flat call. I have position for when the flop comes down. I might be facing several hands that I dominate, such as JJ, TT, AQ, KQ, etc. I don't like reraising preflop, because for the same $1750, I can bet on the flop a pot sized bet and gain more information.
Thus I play it like this.
I call preflop. There is approxiamately 1500 in the pot.
On the flop, I'll make a few different moves.
If he bets the pot...I'm willing to risk a large portion of my stack here. I'll make it 4000 to go when he bets 1750. I'll consider a fold to an all-in here.
If he bets smaller... say 1000... I'll most likely make it 2200 - 2500 to go and look for his reaction.
My point is this... I likely have the player beat preflop...it is possible that they have KK or AA, but unless I get an amazing read, I'm not folding here, though it might make sense, being that a small portion of my stack is committed. I would prefere to play this hand post flop on the flop, where I can get a stronger read.
I'm also a player who likes to accumulate chips early or exit early. This is an ideal situation to do either, though I'd say I come out ahead in the majority here.
Well said.. that's what I would do..
Wlleiotl
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 8:53 AM
I wouldn't, because if I was waiting to see what he did on the flop I'd bee waiting a long time, you're acting first on the flop
rog
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 9:00 AM
All-in is out of the question. Too many unknowns, and WAY to early to put them all in preflop on any hand really. Fold is out too. The bet is not big enough to make me fold a premium hand, so we're down to call vs raise to 1/4 of my stack.
If I re-raise, I expect all-in or fold from my opponent. All in if I'm beat, and fold if I'm ahead. Not much of a deal there.
I like the flat call. Reason is, even though I have a premium hand, I'm beat by AA, KK. I'm a coin flip to AK, and it's too early to flip coins. I think I benefit from seeing a flop. Ill re-raise if the flop comes under-cards, fold to a large raise with any overcards, and of course if I hit a Q with no overs, I'm looking to get them all in. Call.
Rog
troutsmart
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 9:19 AM
I wouldn't, because if I was waiting to see what he did on the flop I'd bee waiting a long time, you're acting first on the flop
Wow... boy did I misread the original situation. I was thinking the player was in the BB, giving me position. This changes my approach a bit.
I still don't like a reraise, and would likely call. He's showing aggression and will bet the flop under most circumstances. Therefore, my read after the flop will be crucial. If the board is low... I will likely check-raise. If an A or K hits, I have no problem walking away from the hand, though I might bet out 1250-1750 with just the K hitting.
Bottom line: it bites to be out of position. However, with a good read on the flop, I could pick up a lot of chips in this situation.
Red_foot_soldier
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 10:20 AM
before I look at anyone elses posts I fancy giving this a stab.
Obviously he has something but given my/your aggressive nature he could be testing you with Ax, small pair, only really 2 hands that worry you AA and KK, so take the flop if you avoid the A or K to make any of the mediocre hands test him again if appears strong you can get off it then.
Then again by that reasoning could push preflop with only 2/3 of maybe 20 ish hands he could have you beat.
a too risky early they're will be better spots to get the cash in later
CALL
Big-Ern777
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 10:43 AM
I'd say this one is pretty simple. Lay the hand down and move on to fight with more bullets rather than taking a highly unnecessary risk here. Give him credit for the steal, cowboys, rockets or what have you as a battle here is highly risky and not matching the reward.
If you call:
No real flop is making you comfortable unless you catch the set, which of course is highly unlikely. If an A or K lands now you're in trouble, most likely beat and must wait to see what your opponent does as betting would most likely be incorrect. Even if the flop comes 2 7 10, rainbow, this isn't a great situation for you as KK or AA would still have you dominated. The logic to this hand is that nobody limped or raised before you (which could mean Aces are still in the deck or someone's hand) and considering his reraise, whether it be pocket 5s or pocket As, you're still correct in folding as most likely you won't catch the flop and already you'd be highly concerned as to what your opponent may do, as any bet would probably scare you away regardless of the board. The key part to the quiz is that you don't know this player well, therefore you don't know if a bet at the flop means a monster or a simple push and risking chips to acquire this information (when you could simply watch him on later hands) doesn't seem very profitable, long-run or short-run.
Reraise 2500:
Definitely the worst decision in my opinion. Most likely he's going to call even if he attempted to scare you out with a low pocket pair. Basically, why risk a quarter of your stack to test and see if this unknown player has KK or AA and get trapped in a crippling situation when you can healthily lay the hand down.
All-in: Gee, that's a great play. Let's find out whether or not he has us dominated and risk nearly our entire stack and tournament life! Basically, if you don't have a read on your opponent you shouldn't be using almost your entire stack to do so.
KramitDaToad
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 11:33 AM
QUOTE (Big-Ern777)
The logic to this hand is that nobody limped or raised before you (which could mean Aces are still in the deck or someone's hand) ...
Sorry there is no logic there. Player's actions have absolutely no bearing on the distribution of the cards remaining in the deck.
Big_J234
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 11:51 AM
Ok so I'm not as educated as most others, but heres my stab. I would re-raise only reason is that when I just call I usually just fold if I miss the flop. Also folding Q's is pretty hard for a bad player like myself. In this senario it's heads up, early, and the raise is just as scary to him as it was to you (from his re-raise that is). So put the stress on him to figure it out. Why lose 1/4th of your stack on the chance I might hit trips with a Queen high on the board. If he has Aces or Kings so be it. I'm throwing initial pot odds out the window I know. But surviving this hand may set up the whole day for you, even if you lose the pot. People will be willing to play with you cause' your "crazy". I'm pretty sure folding is correct here but oh well. I'm going out with guns blazin.
ejay
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 1:03 PM
I would re-rasie because i believe that it would be the best way to find out where i stand. A call does not tell me much because if a flop was to come down something like 9 high and the player made a huge bet he could still have pocket jacks or tens and i would not know. A raise leaves me with about 7500 hundred which is enough to make a comeback if i had to fold. Going all0in would be risky because you could easily be beaten
holman3rd
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 1:12 PM
QUOTE (DanielNegreanu)
You are playing in a $10,000 buy in WPT event and are in the this first limit about 30 minutes into the event. Your stack is at 10,225 when you look down at QQ from middle position and no one has entered the pot in front of you.
The blinds are 25-50 so you decided to raise it and make it 150 to go. Everyone folds to the player on the button who re-raises it to 750 and both blinds fold back to you.
You have never seen this player before and have no idea what he has or what he is capable of. You assume he plays pretty straight forward as you haven't seen anything strange thus far from him. He has 10,000 in chips so you have him barely covered.
The pot only has $225 in it and the button re-raises big to $750. That size raise here (absent a read, which we don't have), smells like AK to me, and the button wants to isolate me by getting the blinds to fold.
I don't expect to see AA or KK, as I can't see why the button would want to isolate me with those monsters. Yes, I would expect a re-raise, but not this big since there is only one person in the pot (me) and the 2 blinds yet to act.
Going with a read of AK, I flat call. I'm out of position on the flop, so absent any Aces or Kings on the flop, I'm in good shape and try to take it down there, probably by betting into him. If he comes over the top of me, I fold, fearing my read was wrong and he was playing AA or KK. I think it's too early for him to have a read on me and try this move (playing back at me), with less that those two hands.
Any A or K on the flop, I check and fold to any bet.
Second choice would be to push, but since I don't have a read on this player, I'm not sure if he is capable of playing AA or KK this way. Therefore, I don't push, since I'd likely only get called by those two hands.
I don't consider folding a choice.
By the way, let me add that the button could be making this move with a lot less than AK. My open-raise came from middle position, which would indicate a wider starting range than, say, if I were UTG.
holman3rd
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 1:14 PM
QUOTE (troutsmart)
I flat call. I have position for when the flop comes down. I might be facing several hands that I dominate, such as JJ, TT, AQ, KQ, etc. I don't like reraising preflop, because for the same $1750, I can bet on the flop a pot sized bet and gain more information.
Thus I play it like this.
I call preflop. There is approxiamately 1500 in the pot.
On the flop, I'll make a few different moves.
If he bets the pot...I'm willing to risk a large portion of my stack here. I'll make it 4000 to go when he bets 1750. I'll consider a fold to an all-in here.
If he bets smaller... say 1000... I'll most likely make it 2200 - 2500 to go and look for his reaction.
If he checks the flop... I'll bet between 1250 and 1750, and look for his reaction.
If I feel I'm beat after the flop...I'll slow down
My point is this... I likely have the player beat preflop...it is possible that they have KK or AA, but unless I get an amazing read, I'm not folding here, though it might make sense, being that a small portion of my stack is committed. I would prefer to play this hand post flop, where I can get a stronger read.
I'm also a player who likes to accumulate chips early or exit early. This is an ideal situation to do either, though I'd say I come out ahead in the majority here.
Our posts are very similar, although we don't have position. The re-raiser is on the button.
ddudley
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 1:21 PM
This is a pretty straight forward call. You don't wabt to fold and you sure as hell dn't want to give him another chance to go all-in (which you can't call). If the flop has an ace or king and he's betting then we can fold. If not, we probably have the best hand.
wrto4556
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 1:32 PM
QUOTE (KramitDaToad)
I think you have to call here. You are obviously worried about AA or KK but it is equally (actually more) likely you are up against AK where you can be a 57% favorite. On your good days it may even be AQ, JJ or even worse and things are rosy.
True you will be out of position, but pairs are not as constricted as other cards because post flop they are not drawing hands.
The implied odds for hitting the set are good as you are both deep, and you can assume to have his hand defined to a small range of possibilities
I you are prepared to let it go to an A or K on the flop it's not going to cost you any more that the 600 to call.
Worst case scenario is a low flop with no A, K or Q which will leave you with some work still to do, however in this case you are ahead 16/28 times if all he re-raises with are AA, KK & AK.
I think the final deciding factor is you are showing the table early that you are not easily pushed off your raises - it might even be worth the 600 to take the flop and check/fold to any non Q flop to 'buy' this reputation.
I don't see going all-in as an option and thus folding is second to calling for the above reasons.
Edit: Daniel has just added the reraise option. I think this is out as 600 will let us see the flop and define the hand so much more. (ie A or K bye-bye!)
I couldn't aggree more. In this situation I would call with AK, too...Even if I had to fold UI on the flop.
sloshr
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 1:42 PM
I reraise here to keep control of the hand. I probably have him beat, but if he really does have AA or KK here, he will almost certainly move all in. If he moves in, I will fold. If he calls, I am going on the assumption that I have the best hand and will bet any flop without an A, K, or Q, and check if any of those 3 cards come. By checking my strongest flops as well as my weakest, I take away some of the equity he gets from my showing weakness. I doubt he will call preflop, though.
Emptyeye
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 2:08 PM
I re-re-raise to 2500 and see what he does.
Folding isn't the right thing to do, if you ask me.
Calling is a viable option, but I like to have the initiative in a hand if I can help it, effectively forcing my opponent to make the decision.
All-in is just too risky at this point. Get called and lose, and you're effectively out.
With the re-re-raise, I've reassumed command of the hand, and if he re-re-re-raises me all-in, I can drop it and still have a substantial amount of chips with which to fight another day.
holman3rd
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 2:13 PM
QUOTE (Emptyeye)
I re-re-raise to 2500 and see what he does.
Folding isn't the right thing to do, if you ask me.
Calling is a viable option, but I like to have the initiative in a hand if I can help it, effectively forcing my opponent to make the decision.
All-in is just too risky at this point. Get called and lose, and you're effectively out.
With the re-re-raise, I've reassumed command of the hand, and if he re-re-re-raises me all-in, I can drop it and still have a substantial amount of chips with which to fight another day.
I understand the logic of this play, and certainly wouldn't say it's bad. But, I still think a call is the better play b/c I wouldn't like re-raising and committing 25% of my stack, and then have to fold if he comes over the top of me again.
gregdon8
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 2:24 PM
I think that a big factor here is position. Remember that you raised from middle position and that he is re-raising you from the button. Also the size of his raise initially tells me that he wants to win the pot without much confrontation if possible, so I would take out AA-KK, figuring he would just call the raise there. I would put him on AK, or maybe even AQ. It is still early and you do not know how good of player, or tight a player he is. So I call and see a flop.
Calling is the best choice for two other reasons I see as well.
1. If you fold people will take notice to that and could possibly make more plays at you later when there is a higher percentage of your stack on the line, making any decision that much more important.
2. Re-raising is either gonna result in a fold and you winning the buttons 750 (not worth it. 2500 to win 1000), or an all in and a decision for your tournament life. Even if he calls you have no put 1/4 of your stack into the pot and have gained no information.
Of course you could take this question to the next level...
Is he re-raising you a large amount from the most obvious steal position, to try and trap you in believing that he is weak when he does have a monster (AA,KK)? Probably not, as he would be losing equity if you fold the majority of the time. He would rather call, have you bet the flop and raise you. Would he really re-raise you 600 to win your 150 raise??
Emptyeye
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 2:27 PM
QUOTE (holman3rd)
QUOTE (Emptyeye)
I re-re-raise to 2500 and see what he does.
(Supporting argument)
I understand the logic of this play, and certainly wouldn't say it's bad. But, I still think a call is the better play b/c I wouldn't like re-raising and committing 25% of my stack, and then have to fold if he comes over the top of me again.
Likewise, call is definitely my second choice, and there's a case to be made for it, perhaps even a better one than reraising. However, as I said, I like to be the one in command of the hand--effectively, if I can help it, my options at any given time will be either bet/raise or fold--and this puts me back in that condition. Having to toss the hand to an all-in would bite--I think we both agree that it's too early to effectively risk your entire tournament, particularly by CALLING an all-in and praying maybe he made a move with AQ or JJ--but 7500 or so chips is still plenty at this early stage.
Again, though, I think it comes down to either a call or a reraise.
holman3rd
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 2:30 PM
QUOTE (Emptyeye)
QUOTE (holman3rd)
QUOTE (Emptyeye)
I re-re-raise to 2500 and see what he does.
(Supporting argument)
I understand the logic of this play, and certainly wouldn't say it's bad. But, I still think a call is the better play b/c I wouldn't like re-raising and committing 25% of my stack, and then have to fold if he comes over the top of me again.
Likewise, call is definitely my second choice, and there's a case to be made for it, perhaps even a better one than reraising. However, as I said, I like to be the one in command of the hand--effectively, if I can help it, my options at any given time will be either bet/raise or fold--and this puts me back in that condition. Having to toss the hand to an all-in would bite--I think we both agree that it's too early to effectively risk your entire tournament, particularly by CALLING an all-in and praying maybe he made a move with AQ or JJ--but 7500 or so chips is still plenty at this early stage.
Again, though, I think it comes down to either a call or a reraise.
We definitely agree that folding is not a good choice. As usual, it will be interesting to hear Daniel's advice.
custom36
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 3:13 PM
I voted fold here. There are many better places to put your money in during the tournament. Tough lay down, but I feel it's one that should be made.
expunge
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 3:59 PM
I see two options. I prefer option 1 which is reraise to 2500. Fold to an allin, if just called i think i shut it down unless i see a Q.
Second option is just call, and bet that other 1750 on the flop.
breiten19
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 4:07 PM
I voted call, lot of these plays are possibilites, and the tough part is that I have no info from previously playing against this player.
I chose call for this reason. This guy could have a big hand, you flop a Q and this is a potential double up situation early. Also, you are afraid of AA, KK and A-10, if you see a and A or a K on the flop you can run away (possibly even him checking his big hand (set or top pair top kicker) back to you. I like checking the flop regardless of what hits actually. If you wanna get real brave and tricky, your call preflop could easily be a medium pair. If the board comes rags, you could check raise him all in, if he is a cautious player, he may even lay down an overpair in fear of flopped set. I see this play as an small risk investment with potential big rewards, where as these others are big risk with little reward.
The other option I like is fold. It is early, you were gonna piss away 150 with 67 suited soon anyway when you miss the flop, forget you ever had QQ.
Reraise to 2500 is not an option I like(used to be my standard play). It is purely an info bet here, you are paying 2350 to find out if he has AK AA or KK and you are gonna fold to any reraise. He is not gonna flat call here, so you basically are risking 2350 to win the ~1000 in the pot. The good thing is you get info, the bad is you get little reward.
Reraise all in is horrible. Only getting called by a better hand for the chance to win ~1000.
* Note - my no-limit hold'em game has been absolute crap lately, so i could be completely wrong
Big-Ern777
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 4:38 PM
QUOTE (KramitDaToad)
QUOTE (Big-Ern777)
The logic to this hand is that nobody limped or raised before you (which could mean Aces are still in the deck or someone's hand) ...
Sorry there is no logic there. Player's actions have absolutely no bearing on the distribution of the cards remaining in the deck.
It's just a small assumption of information you acquire to try and get an edge. With most players they'll limp or raise with an ace, even a bad ace. No this assumption doesn't give you much to go by, but is small enough to factor in as you should take every piece of information you can get.
breiten19
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 4:56 PM
I know it isn't a choice here, but what do you guys think about reraising the minimum to 1350 rather than 2500? You are risking 1200 instead of 2350 more. It is probably the most suspicious bet in poker. You will likely get called and have to play the hand out of position. However, if you favored the raise to $2500 and saw it as an info bet to fold to if you got reraised, wouldn't you get the same info from this play without paying as much for that info? The seed has been planted from the very suspicious bet that you have aces. I still favor the call over this play but, if you get called and not reraises, how about leading with $1000 again after the flop (you've risked the same amount as wit the reraise to 2500), but have now made 2 suspicious bets.
packattack
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 4:58 PM
A pretty straightforward player would probably make this play with a hand like TT, JJ, or AK. Therefore, I disagree with folding. Ok, moving all-in isn't an option either because it's such a huge overbet of the pot, and if he's got AA or KK your done for. If you call, you have no idea of where you are at in the hand. A flop of J43 with two of the same suit may not look that scary to you, but you could be in deep trouble here. If you check, he's going to bet, and then you really don't know where you stand. If you bet, and he calls, you still won't know for sure what he has...he may have a set of jacks, he may have a flush draw, who knows. Therefore, I think that you need to come over the top of him here. You will totally find out where you are in the hand. He will be forced to lay down a hand like AK. Because you don't have position, smooth calling is a bad play here, you have to re-raise.
spacemonkey
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 7:06 PM
I'd call right now. It's only 600 more and everyone has plenty of chips. If the flop has an ace or king I'd check and fold if he shows much strength. If the flop doesn't have an ace or king I'd lead out with a bet of about 1,000. If I hit my set and the board is really ragged (Q

7

2 :club) I'd check it and try to trap but I'd usually go ahead and bet about the same amount 1,000-1,200.
That's what I think anyway.
karasz
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 9:17 PM
i say fold... only because its 30 minutes into it, new guy is playing, why risk it right now... get a feel for him, THEN when you see how he plays youll know if you're nothing hand can take him or if you're going to need aces or kings to show him who is boss
who am i kidding, i would have pushed it right then and there... but then again i dont play in many (any) WPT events so who knows maybe i would wimp out
cheviot
Monday, March 7th, 2005, 10:46 PM
I think a call is correct in this spot. He's reraising you with one of most likely three hands. He either has AA, KK, or AK. Although he could be reraising with AQ or JJ or also QQ, the first three are most likely. Of those three, he is 57% to have AK. He only hits the flop about 33% of the time with AK. If you call, there will be about 1500 in the pot. If the flop comes with an A or K you can check and only lose 750. If the flop comes three blanks, you can bet 1000, and he probably wont follow up with AK. If he has AA or KK, you will find out on the flop and lay your hand down easily. You only lose 1750 and still have about 8500 which is healthy with blinds still at 25-50. You are also getting huge implied odds to get most of his stack if you flop a set. You're putting in only about 7% of your stack to potentialy win the 10K in his stack if he's willing to play an overpair for his whole stack.
Unlike most of the posts I read, I think being out of position in this pot is actually an asset. Most people think that by acting first you won't have as much information. However, if position was reversed, certainly any player would bet AA or KK on an all blanks flop, but many players will lead out with just AK in this spot. By your opponent acting first, you still have no definite read on him. But if you can lead out with QQ on an all blank flop, you can know with certainty that he has AA or KK if he raises you. (Some very agressive players will continue with AK, but unlikely in this spot)
I don't mind folding here becasue you could very well be in bad shape. But for only 7% of your stack, you should take a flop and figure out where you are. 8500 is plenty of chips to play around with, and only a bonehead would go broke on this hand.
brisk
Tuesday, March 8th, 2005, 1:02 AM
wow ... i'd like to sit down and play with these 6 year olds that are posting. (when i say 6, i mean thats how tight you are ... like a 6 year old girl) ...except for packattack, he is dead on balls accurate
150 would be a standard opening raise which could be re-raised with a large variety of hands. Imagine the quiz question went something like this:
You are on the button looking down at 99 and a player in mid position makes the standard raise to 150 ... what do you do?
I'm sure a lot of you tight-os would fold or call, but the appropriate play for 99 would be to raise. Many players will raise with hands such as 77-AA, A-J - A-K, or even a suited connector (or 10-7off).
*please note i said SOME players, not necessarily me
therefore
Re-RAISE
...then if they move all in start asking questions such as:
where are you from?
OR
did you win your seat in an online satellite?
KramitDaToad
Tuesday, March 8th, 2005, 1:16 AM
QUOTE (brisk)
wow ... i'd like to sit down and play with these 6 year olds that are posting. (...)
brisk, how would you like to remove the stuff between the brackets in your opening paragraph.
Not the best.
hexag1
Tuesday, March 8th, 2005, 4:21 AM
Just call
this is a 'just call'
he could have re-raised with A-K, KK or AA
by calling you can see the flop and decide from there. its only 750 chips and folding to an A flop or a K flop is not that bad. and he doesnt know that you folded QQ.
Devilkin
Tuesday, March 8th, 2005, 6:00 AM
I call - its early still, so no need for huge gambles. A raise from 150 to 750 is significant enough that a reraise isnt going to give you any new information, force him to fold.
Call and play out an agressive flop, unless it looks dangerous. Fold to a large reraise.
Dev
akishore
Tuesday, March 8th, 2005, 6:36 AM
NOT all-in!!! by going all-in WAY over the top (9000 on top of a 1000-chip pot???), you're basically asking for an ass-raping if he has AA or KK, and only AA or KK will call you. this concept is explained in sklansky's "tournament poker"; you're turning your queens into a 2-7 effectively, since only a better hand will call and will have you crushed.
i don't see folding as an option... you have the third best hand, and for only 500 more chips, you're going to fold??? think about the implied odds, if you hit your queen on the flop, you can take down a monster pot and maybe even double through if you set a good trap.
re-raising is an option, but it's a risky proposition since your opponent might move in over the top, and then you'd be forced to fold (it's definitely not a good idea to call an all-in with QQ in the first stage of the tournament).
thus, i think calling is the best move. it disguises your hand, makes it look like AK/AQ, maybe KQ or a medium pocket pair. it also gives you a chance to see a flop. if it's low cards, you can try to get a little tricky because your opponent might have AK, but otherwise, you can afford to let it go. the main reason for calling is to try to hit a set, IMHO.
my answer: call.
aseem
Lorax
Tuesday, March 8th, 2005, 6:45 AM
QUOTE (breiten19)
I voted call, lot of these plays are possibilites, and the tough part is that I have no info from previously playing against this player.
I chose call for this reason. This guy could have a big hand, you flop a Q and this is a potential double up situation early. Also, you are afraid of AA, KK and A-10, if you see a and A or a K on the flop you can run away (possibly even him checking his big hand (set or top pair top kicker) back to you. I like checking the flop regardless of what hits actually. If you wanna get real brave and tricky, your call preflop could easily be a medium pair. If the board comes rags, you could check raise him all in, if he is a cautious player, he may even lay down an overpair in fear of flopped set. I see this play as an small risk investment with potential big rewards, where as these others are big risk with little reward.
I agree with this assesment....Call
I dont position is important here as regardless of the flop - you are best served checking after the flop - either getting away from the hand, or if you hit the set - check raising.......You can setup a steal as well by calling a small bet with rags on the table......All in all, I dont think position is a big deal with a hand already made....
Nick Bouyea
Tuesday, March 8th, 2005, 7:24 AM
I think everybody is putting him on too narrow a range of hands. I really think that you have the best hand here with QQ. The raise to 750 screams weakness, not great power like AA or KK. I think with AA or KK a straightforward player would raise less to price in the original raiser. I think the raiser can have a range of hands from AJ-AK or pp's <10's. With that said, I don't know what I would do. I think most pros would try to play a small pot and call, while a more amateur player such as myself would raise and try to take the pot right now. I think that if you reraise then, you would definitely have to fold to an all in.
Chicago Slim
Tuesday, March 8th, 2005, 7:57 AM
I think that in this situation you have two descions to make:
1.) Are you best here?? If you think you are then I think a raise is in order. To me (not knowing the tendencies of the player that made the re-raise) 750 re-raise says one of two things: 1.) they have a middle pocket pair and want to project a big hand and protect thier table image, or 2.) they havea monster and want to build thier stack with a decent sized, but not over the top bet....So now I think that you have to figure out where you stand.....if you truly believe that they are representing a mid pp (such as 10-10...9-9) then I believe that re-raising to about 2000 would be a good bet...you are saying that you have a quality hand..and wont be "bet off" pots. Early (as is given in the example) in tournament play I like to find out as much info as I can about players without making too many "huge" mistakes.....and I dont think that making a re-raise w qq would be anywhere near a "huge mistake"......There are only two hands that I would be worried about here...aa and kk.......a-k is a coin flip, and b y re-raising you are saying that you are willing to "race"..Now if they come back over the top AFTER you re-raise then you really have some thinking to do....and with the re-raise you can get (usually) pretty good reads on how people play....what they are willing to bet with, and what thier potential tells (body language etc) are.....So I truly believe that if you think you are up against mid pp's or even a-k...then a re-raise is in order
2.) Your second descion is based on the "table image" that you want to portray for the rest of the tournament...If you want the table to be aware of your presence...and remember that you are willing to bet your hands agressively, then I think a re-raise is in order.....The re-raise here puts into not only the person you are up against....but the rest of the table....that you are here to "play" and that you wont be laying down for anyone at any time.....you represent your semi strong hand and you are willing to play that hand even down to coin flip...which gives the table an overall awareness of your presence...which may in fact help you later on inna big pot.....If you flat call....you are saying to the table.....I am willing to see flops, but not bet hands that I have.....and by doing this you are opening yourself up for all kinds of bluff, semi-bluff draws, etc, which may cost you in the long run....But again that all depends on the style that you are comfortable with and the table image that YOU want to portray....at this moment, or even for future "mental bank" for the rest of the table
So my answer would be to re-raise this to 2000.....make him pay to see his small set, or to spike his ace.....and from that you can get a pretty decent read on him, while projecting a table image that says "dont mess with my raises unless you are willing to pay to play"....and if they come over the top of your raise...then you fold and put the 750 number in your head for future reference.....But I like to project a solid/agressive table image when I play...and this answer might not be suited to everyones style of play
KramitDaToad
Tuesday, March 8th, 2005, 8:07 AM
QUOTE (Big-Ern777)
QUOTE (KramitDaToad)
QUOTE (Big-Ern777)
The logic to this hand is that nobody limped or raised before you (which could mean Aces are still in the deck or someone's hand) ...
Sorry there is no logic there. Player's actions have absolutely no bearing on the distribution of the cards remaining in the deck.
It's just a small assumption of information you acquire to try and get an edge. With most players they'll limp or raise with an ace, even a bad ace. No this assumption doesn't give you much to go by, but is small enough to factor in as you should take every piece of information you can get.
Nope.
This is a common mistake based upon poor assumptions.
You never know the motives of the
people holding the cards and thus cannot use other players behaviour to influence the probablity of your opponent's hand or the deck's contents.
The only relevant information you have, disregarding tells, is the current state of the tournament, your cards, your opponents bet and your relative positions
packattack
Tuesday, March 8th, 2005, 1:31 PM
QUOTE (Nick Bouyea)
I think everybody is putting him on too narrow a range of hands. I really think that you have the best hand here with QQ. The raise to 750 screams weakness, not great power like AA or KK. I think with AA or KK a straightforward player would raise less to price in the original raiser. I think the raiser can have a range of hands from AJ-AK or pp's <10's. With that said, I don't know what I would do. I think most pros would try to play a small pot and call, while a more amateur player such as myself would raise and try to take the pot right now. I think that if you reraise then, you would definitely have to fold to an all in.
I totally agree. There are a wide variety of hands that I would re-raise with here, and 99, TT is one of them, especially in position. Another thing that nick has pointed out is that he re-raised to 750. Why would he overbet the pot if he had KK or AA?
Someone earlier said that being out of position is an asset here, but I disagree. If you were in position, you would be able to bluff his KK if the flop came an Ace. Being out of position, you are not able to bluff at this pot on the flop.
nitrolife
Tuesday, March 8th, 2005, 1:48 PM
An allin would be moronic preflop, nuff said.
A fold is'nt very great because of implied odds.
A call sends the wrong message for MY style of play.
I'd re-raise here to send the message I will defend my raises and not be pushed out of pots.....no matter what stage of the tournament. NL holdem poker is not about cards. Personally, this is one of the few times I would min. raise. It affords you a great opportunity to take the hand down post flop....but it was not a quiz option, so I'll skip the reasoning.
Bottomline....QQ is not the best possible hand, but it ain't far from it. If you won't gamble with QQ to an obvious overbet you should take up lawn darts.
Uppie_
Tuesday, March 8th, 2005, 2:02 PM
My feeling is if you re raise you have to re raise at min to 1400 that is a good part of your stack at this early early stage of the tourament your not going to win right here no matter what happens, and sense say he flat calls so there is roughly 3000 in the pot at least if the flop comes low you bet and your bet amount should be at least 1500 then what do you do if he re raises you you have risked 30% of your chips at a stage where no matter how the hand comes out isn't going to make or break you in the tourament if you double up so you have 20,000 big deal so much time left it doesn't matter there are going to be much better chances to build up chips in the next 4 hours then this one. Also by laying this down he might make a play on you for a bundle of chips when you have the goods.
rivercardbandit
Tuesday, March 8th, 2005, 4:23 PM
I said re-raise. I'm tight-aggressive, so if I've a quality hand, I'm going to push back and try to take down his 750 right there. If he re-raises all in, I consider folding putting him on K's or A's or AK. If he calls and the flop is unfavorable, I can still fold with 3/4 of my chips and still be able to make a run.
Although, I'm most likely wrong and have just opened myself up to huge amount of ridicule.
Awful
Tuesday, March 8th, 2005, 4:23 PM
You forgot the most important part of the quiz, Daniel.
What is his answer when you ask the person "Do you play on the internet?"
XXEddie
Tuesday, March 8th, 2005, 5:38 PM
Ill go through them all
Call-Since you havent seen him before, calling is certainly an option it gives you the chance to bet first if you wanna
Fold-You dont know him and have no read of him whatsoever, folding cant be an option in my opinion
All-in-Way to big of a bet hands you have dominated like AQ or a smaller PP will be able to get away from this, and your only gonna get called if your beat(or maybe AKs)
Raise to 2500-my choice here, gives those weaker PP the ability to call here, I also have a chance to fold here, if I raise and my opponent moves allin he prob has AA or KK...(maybe AKs but I doubt he would go allin) so it gives me a chance to avoid losing all my chips if he does have Aa or KK