$100 NLHE, 10 handed, table playing very tight.
I have AdAh in EP. I open limp, folded to button who raises to $5, blinds fold, I call. Read on button is that he's a tight/straightforward player so he probably has a pair or 2 big cards here.
Flop
Kd 6d 2h ($10)
I check, he bets the pot, I call.
Turn ($30)
9d
I check, he bets $10, I call.
River ($50)
4s
I move all in.
Is my play reasonable or terrible?

First off I definitely think you need to reraise preflop to around $15. You limped w/ AA no prob with that in EP but you got what you wanted a substantial raise and you smooth called. I don't see why.

But since you didn't reraise pf you have to raise the flop. If he has KK you'll find out pronto. And then lead the turn. Reraise flop to $30 if he just calls we move in on the turn w/ the backdoor nut flush draw.

Also stack sizes would help.

Stack sizes: We both had about $100 or slightly more.

As for preflop, if I reraise, I basically declare my hand to my opponent and make it easy for him to play well postflop. If there were multiple opponents, I would definitely make a big reraise. But heads up, calling should be okay, no?

Post flop, I think I agree that I should raise his bet. My idea with just calling was that except for the unlikely event that he has KK, in which case I'm probably losing my stack anyway, there aren't too many hands that he would call a check-raise with here. So maybe I'm better off letting him bet the hand for me on the turn. For example if he has AK, he may fold to a checkraise [the guy was pretty tight], but if the turn is a blank, he will definitely bet when checked to and then I can check raise him all in. But there are alot of 'ifs' in this sentence, for sure, I admit, and alot of bad things can happen.

People 'round here don't like the Limp re-raise, and I actually will support the play IF YOU ACTUALLY DO IT. A limp call is God-awful with Aces. If you've got a tight player that's raising and you hold AA, your motivation to raise more/jam it all in right there is extremely high.

Why are you moving all in on the river with one pair? You want to protect your hand on the flop and sucker in any AK/KQ especially with two diamonds on the board.

He calls your bet on the flop (2 diamonds), what could he have here? Look at the texture of the flop. Most hands that are raising 5xBB with a king in it (AK) are re-raising here, and there aren't any reasonable draws besides diamonds. He certainly could be slow-playing KK to his own demise on a 2-diamond board, but that's his perogative.

On the turn, you bet, he calls. What would you do if you had the flush? You'd probably smooth call too and hope someone does something stupid like you did on the river. He could also have his set of kings and now be fearful that you have the flush.

Bad all around sir.

Honestly I dont like your play very much. It is exactly that play why you hear people say things like "AA..either you win a small one or lose a big one." I usually play AA fast under the pretense that I absolutely want to avoid losing with it exactly because I am such a PF favorite. Why give away your +ev?

I dont mind limping in early position but once the raise I think you should reraise. The most money stands to be made vs. other PP's.

I know this post may be construed as weak tight but I must say that my win % with AA has definitely increased with AA since Ive stuck to this approach. And increasing pots won is certainly my objective.

I would re-raise preflop. If I did something odd like just limp/call. I would bet out post-flop. If he reraises me on the flop, I would reraise him. I wouldn't let him see a turn, let alone the river.

I have AdAh in EP. I open limp, folded to button who raises to $5, blinds fold, I.............

FUCKING PUSH

Stop outplaying yourself, donkey.

good luck.

you got way too cute in this hand the whole way through.

You should have open raised in EP. However, if you do get raised you MUST reraise. C/C is not the best option either. Lead out or c/r.

I know it has been said 1,000 times but pocket Aces win small pots and lose big pots. Get what you can or do not be upset when the villian catches up with you when you get to fancy

Actually I won the hand. He folded on the river.

After thinking about it, I agree that my check/calling the flop and turn was not great (I should check-raise or lead the flop and hope he calls with AK), but I'm not sure why people think my preflop call is so bad (except for the joy of criticizing others to feel superior). I mean, this guy has pretty tight raising standards and is not tricky, thus allowing me to put him on a hand pretty confidently. If he was tricky postflop or could be raising with any two cards here, I agree that reraising big would be the best play, but against this guy why should I let him off the hook so easily by letting him make an easy fold with 1010--QQ or AK?

I mean, when you flop a set, are you telling me you'll never slow play it by just calling if you think your opponent is capable of folding to a raise? Sure, the guy might spike an over pair on the turn, but that's just poker. This is the same principle.

1. You posted this hand meaning you feel some concern for your play.
2. You received criticism and are now still trying to excuse your play.
3. Winning/Losing is irrelevant. You just happened to be in a hand with someone who played their hand worse than you did.

I'm not trying to be mean, or name call... I'm just not going to sugar coat it.

No... I don't slowplay sets. It takes some intense imaginative powers to conjur up a flop that doesn't leave a set vulnerable on the turn. K82 rainbow, is one, but I suppose you can always have over set. Any flop with an ace in it has the potential to turn a straight. Free cards is completely -EV.

Why is pre-flop bad? Not to sugar coat it, but it also seems like you are the type of player that will have trouble putting down your overpair when the board is 227 and the BB is playing back at you hard, all because you limped. Get money for your hands. At the 0.10/0.25 table today I had K10 hearts and Q6os call my 5xBB raise when I had AA. That's MONEY. Why hide a hand when you know you are going to get callers?

yeah im sorry i dont like it

I did agree with some of the criticism I got, and I do think I played the hand quite poorly post flop. But I still haven't heard a convincing reason against my preflop play with this opponent in this situation. I mean, my goal is to maximize my winnings over the long run, not to avoid getting sucked out on at all costs.

I agree with you MasterJL, if the table is loose aggressive, I should open raise and hope for a reraise. But this table was playing super tight, so I couldn't be sure of getting any callers. And after the button raises and the blinds fold, where's the value in reraising all in? -- he'll only call with KK and maybe QQ if I'm lucky. Let's say he calls me 10% of the time, which I think is too high, but for the sake of argument. I'll win ~80% of the time when he calls.

So I win $6 90% of the time = 5.4
I win $106 8% of the time = 8.48
and i lose $100 2% of the time = --2,

so my EV on this play is ~$12.

If I call, it costs me $5, and I'll have about 85% equity in a $12 pot = $10.2, for a total EV of $5.20 after subtracting the $5 i put in. Now, does the total extra that I'll win postflop when my hand holds up minus the total extra i'll lose when my hand gets cracked = $6.80 or more? I really have no idea, but it at least seems reasonable to me. Against this guy's range of hands there aren't too many 'trouble flops' for me (against 722, for example, I'll go broke if he has 77 or 22, but it's going to be hard for him to get away cheap if he has 88--KK. And on a flop like KK10 or QJ10 I have no problem folding to serious action.)

Uh, because you have the best hand 100% of the time. Why do you not want to put more money in the pot with the best hand again?

Just because you think you have him pegged for a very specific range doesn't mean that you can for sure play perfectly postflop. What if the flop comes down ten high and he starts betting hard? Does he have trip tens or does he have an overpair? What if it's king high? Does he have AK for top pair, or does he have KK for top set? For which of these are you going to lay down your AA? Could he really not have KQs here? What if the flop comes down with a K and Q? Do you fold every time?

Why would you let yourself make hard decisions when you can make very easy ones and be right every time? You don't have to push like Smash says, but raise it huge and make him make a marginal decision for most of his stack. Put yourself in a position where you can easily break him if he has KK or maybe QQ. Take his stack most of the time when he has JJ and undercards fall on the flop after calling a massive preflop raise and being somewhat committed.

The best part about this is that it doesn't require any thinking at all. Reraise preflop (well, open raise for starters, but that's a different story).

I mean, when you flop a set, are you telling me you'll never slow play it by just calling if you think your opponent is capable of folding to a raise? Sure, the guy might spike an over pair on the turn, but that's just poker. This is the same principle.

No, it's not the same principle.

Being 22 to 1 isnt' the same as being 5 to 1. Do you see why?

Also if you push and he folds you win 5BB every time. If you just call you sometimes lose and he often gives up very little more when you win. When you lose you almost allways lose more than 5BB. You have to be getting a tremendous amount of value from the hands you win and losing the absolute minnimum when you're behind to make not pushing better.

Not to mention when he calls his whole stack preflop with KK. You pass up an ideal situation to be a massive favorite for all of your chips in an effort to to try (and almost certainly fail) to squeeze out extra value postflop.

FPS.

You're not good enough not to move in with AA preflop here. This isn't a tournament. This one individual hand is meaningless. This situation will come up hundreds of times. Playing the way you did is pissing money away.

good luck.

Dangs,

If the table was as tight as you say, then pre-flop I like (:

1. Raise/re-raise
2. Limp/Call
3. Limp/Re-raise - I agree, this gives away your hand and he's only calling with KK and maybe QQ

I don't think the limp/call play is as terrible as everyone is saying as you are heads up against a tight player ( I don't think it's the best but I don't think it's the worst either), which limits the range of hands you should be worried about.

I think the flop play is ok. Safe flop for you...I also like leading into the raiser for 1/2 the pot because if he does in fact have AK...he should play back at you. If he has QQ or less, you are probably not going to win any money anyways.

On the turn he basically is saying he is afraid of the K or the flush so calling is ok here...I think if you raise he folds.

On the river, I don't like your move here. He's tight, he's only calling your all-in if he has the flush or maybe a set. I'd rather see you bet 1/3 to 1/2 the pot as I think that's the only way you get called by a lesser hand.

Again, I would normally raise with AA but at a tight table, again, I don't think your pre-flop play is horrible and letting him bet for you on the flop and turn is ok. But you have to value bet the river

rusmac:

it's horrible flop and preflop play unless he sees the opponents hands and flop and turn and river ahead of time.

We are givng him great odds and we will have trouble laying this down.

Post flop...what hands are going to pay off our ONE PAIR with any significant amount vs the times we are paying off a draw/two pair that got there cheaply?

You can make quite a bit in the long run with AA by raising a lot preflop to cut the implied odds. Sometimes you pay off sets, but over long run you've collected enough to compensate

Actuary,

First, I appreciate the discussion (ie. I apreciate the dialogue rather than the typical, you are an idiot, go pro make millions).

Second, I agree that I'd rather raise pre-flop with AA than limp for the reasons you stated. But he did in fact limp so to me the question is, "given that he limped, and the raiser is considered tight, should hero re-raise or call"?

Because the player is tight, what hands would he most likely raise with AK, AQ, AJs (maybe) KK, QQ, JJ and maybe 1010. If he is tight, which hands would he most likely call a limp/re-raise with? KK and maybe QQ.

So if you limp/re-raise, he's only calling you with 1 maybe 2 of the 7 hands he's raising with.

If you smooth call, you allow him to take the lead and if he's half way decent...he's betting that flop with at least 5 of the 7 hands he'd raise with. All but one of which (KK) you are way ahead.

You are right, on the turn we are giving him a cheap river card but most of the time he's drawing to 5 outs for 2 pair.

I'm not saying his limp/call pre-flop was the best way to play it, but given the tight table, I don't think it was as horrible as you guys think.

But I reserve the right to be in the minority

Your thoughts?

rusmac:

way too often posters try to justify their donkey plays with "reads".
How many hands has villan shown down?
I really doubt he folds 5/7 hands you listed to a LRR.
And on the flop and turn, we are letting him have infinite odds.

Better players could push us off this hand as well

I"m no NL expert.

Actuary,

Good point regarding posters trying to justify bad plays with "reads". I'm assuming the poster knows what he's talking about until proven otherwise but your point is well taken.

Smash,

I just read your latest response, I think that's a very good explanation for the argument for the hero to re-raise pre-flop.

For what it's worth, I like your responses when you add your insight on the "why" you feel the way you do about a certain play. Allows players like me to get better...

Rusmac

Just because you think you have him pegged for a very specific range doesn't mean that you can for sure play perfectly postflop. What if the flop comes down ten high and he starts betting hard? Does he have trip tens or does he have an overpair? What if it's king high? Does he have AK for top pair, or does he have KK for top set? For which of these are you going to lay down your AA? Could he really not have KQs here? What if the flop comes down with a K and Q? Do you fold every time?

I don't think this is the right way to think about it. You need to balance the times he gets all in with QQ on a 10high flop drawing thin, the times he has trip tens, the times he makes trip tens and you suck out on the river, and so on for all the cases you mention. Remember, I'll still win the hand 80% of the time or more.

By not moving in preflop, I increase my risk as well as my potential gain. The question is whether the gain outweighs the risk by enough to make calling superior to moving in.


Why would you let yourself make hard decisions when you can make very easy ones and be right every time?

Because by doing so I am forcing him to make hard decisions and I'm hoping he will make worse ones than me.

By raising big or all in, I am giving him a very easy decision unless he has KK.

This situation will come up hundreds of times. Playing the way you did is pissing money away.

I don't agree. Every situation is unique and needs to be judged individually. This is not a black and white game. Limp/calling every time I had pocket aces would be pissing money away, but that doesn't mean there are no situations where it's a reasonable play.

Let's say you had watched this guy for 1000s of hands and knew that he would only play A10--AK, KQ, and 77--AA in this situation, would fold anything but AA and KK to a reraise, would always make a continuation bet after raising preflop, and would call an allin check raise with an overpair or TPTK at least 90% of the time. Then, excuse me, but moving in preflop would be the donk play, calling and trying to get his stack would be CLEARLY better -- it's not even close.

dingas:

when would a villan that you describe give you his stack?

Are you not A LOT more likely to end up giving him your stack, when he hits two pair, etc on the turn/flop. ?

Please address how you will manipulate the situation and out play him post flop with little visibility and underbetting?

He's tight. He won't just move all in with TP.

Against this type, true, you aren't getting his whole stack by pushing the flop, unless he has you beat. But you aren't ever getting it with just one pair.

See?

You ever have a long argument with someone, and 3 hours into it..you realize "Oh..oh..oh.... you were talknig about Saturday? I thought we were talking about Friday. ok. My fault"

Well.. you need to listen to what others are saying. And quit focusing on presenting your case. We know your side

paradigm shift

This is probably the most important point about this hand is that the Villian is tight and he's raising to 5x the BB a strong raise. Which is why you must must reraise here against a tight player.

He won't move all in w/ TP but he will probably call down w/ KK or QQ if we take control of this hand preflop (also I'm talking in general I don't care that a K hit the flop here).

And dingas can't manipulate the situation post flop. His only real play is C/R all in any flop.

krup,

I may have had poor delivery, but hopefully you know I'm on the side of raisng this preflop, either before or after the Villans raise
I was jsut trying to present dingas with some stuff to address.

Only preflop. This doesn't apply at all once you see the flop.



Obviously it is impossible to calculate exactly what are EV is in either situation since there is an almost limitless combination of flops and actions that either of you will take.

But, for sure, if you play similarly to the way you actually played this hand, you're going to make not nearly as much money as if you blindly pushed preflop. That was Smash's point.

Personally, I would not advocate an outright push but rather a substantial reraise with the intention to push most flops. This way, you can get more money in when you know you're ahead, you can get KK or even QQ to push preflop (which we love) and get a chance at their stack. Also, we can still get QQ, JJ, or even TT to overcommit with a lesser overpair when undercards flop and we inevitably push. We can get AK's stack if a king flops and we push. etc etc.

The key is that simply calling preflop and then check calling all the way down only to randomly push the river when we have the least advantage is easily the worse way to play this hand.