1/2 NL

Button posts, UTG, UTG+1 limp, I raise with AK suited to $12, 2 callers behind, SB, BB, UTG, UTG+1 call

FLOP (7 handed, $84)

k 10 5
UTG+1 leads for $35 (His stack is about $220 to start, mine is $550)
What's our line?

Read on UTG, haven't gotten a really good sense of him. He's tricky, but I haven't decided if he's tricky good or tricky retarded. As for the table... preflop action is common.

Do we want to just commit preflop? I kinda did.

2 d's leave a lot more action out there then I would want to push into I think, I'm pretty sure you would get a call. WAY more callers than I would want to see with AK

AJd AQd QJd probably another black AK possible

That amount of regular is action and he is betting in to you. I'm confident that this is a draw or weaker K. As Mr. T says, RAISE 'EM FOO! If he pushes all-in, re-evaluate based on his past plays.

i can't fold if I raise. the pot's too big.

I don't get it, 84+35= $119

You have $550, why not a $100 raise to check and see?

UTG+1 has a little over $200 to start. The rest of the table is under or around the 250 mark. If I raise to $100 how can I fold to another $100 when it comes bacK?

The villain's stack is only 220. If our hero puts in a meaningful raise, there's going to be 400 in the pot for him to call the last 100. That seems like a slam dunk call with TPTK here.

What do you put him on then? 55? 1010? K10 seems a little loose, but 7 people calling a 6BB raise leads me to believe this is pretty loose table. You could just call and see what happens?

Like i said, he was tricky, but I had no idea whether he was really good or not. k10, 55 is just as likely in my head.

You are assuming everyone else is going to call off on the $100?

7 to the flop there has got to be some people getting out of the way no?

call and reevaluate the turn. no scare cards push

Well then it's tough, being out of position is making it tougher.

If I had 55 or 10 10, I would be looking for a re raise, or someone to go all in a scare me off the pot, he's got to figure someone in there has got a king, so what is he trying to get you to do?

Should we be reading anything by the underbet on the flop? I mean is that normal for this game? It looks like it could be a live game in which case underbets might be more common, but I am not sure.

This looks like a draw to me, but I am not sure if you have enough information to put your stack in here. With so many players, I have a hard time seeing TPTK holding up. I could see doing something donkish and just smooth calling or min-raising.(something I hate though). Especially, with more people behind you, I would not commit too much money right now. I say just call. One advantage of calling is that if the turn misses the diamond draw and he is in fact goading you with a set, he should reveal his true strength, fearing that you might be on the draw.

In fact, if it is normal that SO many people call a preflop raise, I would raise only with hands with high implied odds. I would play PP for set value and Axs for flush value, and try to take down small pots with TP. By not being in good position here, I would raise more preflop(to cut the field) or not raise at all. If you didn't say this flop action was normal though, I would think your PF raise was spot on.

No, I'm assuming that everyone else folds. If you'll allow me some sloppy rounding:

~100 to the flop
We raise to $100 ($200 pot).
He matches our $100. ($300 pot)
He raises $100. ($400 pot)

Now we're getting about 4:1 with TPTK.

Now, we could raise less but we learn less and we clearly price in the draws.

You've still got a couple of callers behind you. This hand is just brutal with so many people in the hand. Someone could have 10 10, 5 5 or K 10 and take 200 from your stack. I would opt to be aggressive here and raise it up to 100. If someone pushes, they must have you beat to rereraise knowing you may call the extra 100 because their stacks are not as deep as yours. If you get reraised, you are likely against a set or 2 pair.
I say raise it up to see where you are. You gain fold equity and prevent cheap draws by doing so. You will definitely wipe out any straight or flush draws as they shouldn't have the odds to call. If someone pushes then you decide.
I don't know why UTG bets so small into the pot when there are so many draws out there, he is either very bad or knows one of you will raise then he will push all in. Even if I flopped a set here, I think I would bet pot size given how many callers are behind me. I guess he is tricky retarded.

all in

It's not a live game, It's online and yes, the underbet can be fairly normal in this game as huge preflop pots get built often. A $40 bet on the flop is usually pretty healthy in a 1/2 game, but this is exceptionally loose preflop.

Do we really worry about the players behind us here?

Okay I see your logic, but given the pot, and the amount of people in there, a smaller raise would allow way too many hands to stay in there I think.

Having a whole lot of people to act after me would make me uncomfortable anyways, but I don't see how you could continue playing without making a decent raise

My thoughts, I pushed this hand because, well the pot was big, and I wanted to charge any draw out there. If I got caught by a set, or slip on two pair behind me, I was ok w/ that. Not gonna post results just in case anyone wants to chime in....

My main problem w/ this hand was whether or not I should worry about the people behind me. Heads up it would have been an easy push.

my only problem is, there are so many people in the hand, i dont think TPTK is that great. The fact that the 3 people to act before UTG+1 doesnt really tell us anything. If someone has TT or 55, they could checked, since it was a raised pot, 7 ways, and a king hit, they can be pretty sure someone is going to bet.

Further to that, if you get one caller it could price in the flush draw too

what were the stack sizes of the people left to act behind you?
if you were to push here, would it still been enough to price out anybody from calling an all-in and still get 2-1 to see both turn and river? because if not, then there's a good chance that UTG+1 is coming along regardless if he was betting a draw. so a raise here would have no value with respects to UTG+1 or any caller getting odds to call your push based on their stack size. the only value i would see is protecting your hand against people in between you and UTG+1 that have stacks sufficiently large enough to make folding correct. even then, i might lean towards just calling here and seeing what develops since it would probably take only one loose caller of your push to price in anyone else.

I think we have to raise. We don't want those behind us to draw cheaply. ie overcalling with say A-10 with the ace of diamonds etc.

I think this really depends. If raising is not guaranteed to price out draws, either due to stack sizes or due to looseness of people left to act, then the only difference here between calling and letting them draw cheap and raising to make it more expensive is a matter of variance. That, and the possibility of getting out cheaply if someone behind you raises and UTG+1 reraises.

We only have TPTK here with a lot of people left to act and are a bit suspicious of the UTG+1's lead bet. Do we really want to make this pot huge?

Scott, what were your thoughts on the hand? Or, how did it play out? Based on the responses, it is clear that this is tricky hand, with a non obvous flop play. This hand is interesting, so I want ot hear both how it played out and your thoughts in the hand.

I'm glad this wasn't cut and dry to anyone. Because this types of situations tend to happen a lot in this game, i had a few preliminary thoughts before the flop even came. (For those who wanted to know, stacks were hovering around 100-300). I really made up my mind not to worry about players behind me. I had no information that they had a big hand like 2 pair or a set, so I would just play as if they didn't and make sure I charged the draw. to the point, of a draw getting priced in with one call... absolutely right, except I really think I'll have to be beat here to get a call outside of the flop aggressor. I pushed this pot.

and?

well it got folded around and i got called by A10.

and?

Huh... See, the reason I was lthinking that pushing was only good if you had a really strong read that he had a draw, was that I was thinking that an all-in would only be called by a really strong draw or a made hand. Your hand is pretty transparent and he should be able to lay it down. I could see a King with a weaker kicker making the call though, so I guess there are some hands that should pay you off, but you walk a fine line between losing value from worse hands(Kx, etc.) and paying off better hands, while at the same time not giving someone a cheap draw...ugg...tough one.

Well, it looks like you made the right play and got paid off!!

Calling here is clearly the worst of the 3 decisions we can make in this hand. Calling invites many hands to draw for an incredibly cheap price and also shows extreme weakness, which may lead a decent player to make a decently advanced play and raise, which will scream strength, and then we lose all of our power in this hand. Folding is obviously a bad play because this is a pretty good flop for AK. the only better flops are ones where we flop a straight, flush, trips or 2 pair. If we raise, and the rest of the field folds, we can feel pretty good about getting our money in against the guy who led out for $35, when that may be a feeler bet, and he may even fold and we win a decent sized pot.

If there was ever a time where something close to a mini-raise would be an acceptable play, then it is here. Raise it to about 70 or 80, and if you get called by a player yet to act or raised then your hand has no value unless you spike a king or ace on the turn.

Calling is a bad play with so many in the pot, because you are the one who is supposed to have some strength. If this were heads-up, then you could be sneaky and raise a non-threatening turn.
This is your pot and you need to narrow the field because if you get one or two callers behind your call, then we really have no idea if AK is good or not. It may or may not be, but we can't play it strong if its good under that scenario.If we raise something, then we'll have a better idea where we are on the turn. If anyone calls his bet and your raise, then we know that we have to stop barring a really good turn card.