Interesting hand at the Binions 4/8 the other day. This hand has been bothering me and I've asked a few of my buddies their advice on the proper way to play this tricky flop. It was a very loose/passive game. UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, I call in MP with A T , Button calls, SB calls, BB checks. So with 6 Small bets in the pot we take a flop of 8 9 10
SB Bets out, BB Folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, I call, Button folds.
Turn is 4
SB Bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, I raise, SB Calls, UTG+2 calls.
River is 2
SB Checked, UTG+2 Checked, I bet, SB Called, UTG+2 folds.

I won the pot with 10's Ace kicker. But my question is this:
What should I have done on the flop? I could very easily argue for folding. With that kind of flop, an EP bet would scare the hell out of me 95% of the time there. But not this time.. the SB didn't even fully understand what beats what, so my thinking was this: "Im not going to be able to protect my hand on the flop with a raise. If I raise, Ill be putting the 11th small bet into the pot and the button will be getting 5.5:1, so everyone can still draw correctly. I'll call here and raise the turn if its not a scare card so I can cut down the odds much more..better equity on the turn."
Was this the right approach? Thinking back, there were SO many scare cards that make me not like my hand anymore on the turn. Any spade, any 7 or J, any Q or K. But I think that makes waiting until the turn to raise correct. If any scare card comes, I can easily get away from the hand and not cost myself an extra bet. If a blank falls, I raise the turn with better equity and offering worse pot odds. So should I have raised the flop? Folded? Or did I take the right approach?
I value bet the river. I put the SB on a smaller 10 and UTG+2 on a missed draw since he checked and called the whole way through. Should I have just checked it through on the river even with that coordinated flop, or was the value bet correct? (Not using hindsight)

This was one of those marginal hands that you need to play well in order to be a top flight player i.m.o. And Ive been thinking about it for a few days. Any help or insight is appreciated

Thanks

i like the play. no way to protect your hand on the flop. best to wait for the safe turn before jacking it up.

looks goot.

Raise flop for value.

You'll never be able to protect this hand, given board texture and your relative pos.



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also..raise flop for info
LP table..if you are 3-bet.. AT likely no good.
Cheaper than getting 3 bet on turn

Ok, I think I figured it out. I think I played the hand perfectly. If I raise on the flop, it doesn't protect my hand at all. The button can still cold call 2 bets and get his odds to draw. And, If I raise the flop, it also builds a big enough pot on the turn, that they could call 2 bets again on the turn and drawing is still correct. But its not nearly as correct if I wait till the turn to raise. Its a very close call for them at that point. The pot odds could be close (Still slightly correct), but the prospect of me already possibly having the straight (or me having 2 pair or a set cutting down their outs) makes it incorrect. I think its pretty clear now. Waiting for the turn was the best route for this one.

Whew.. finally im convinced what the correct play was. I can sleep now lol. Even some pros on other sites couldn't agree on this one, but I think its clearer looking at it that way.



I dont think you are going to get much info by getting 3 bet. Everyone is going to call around, and then the pot will be a monster on the turn and you cant fold anyways. Someone could EASILY 3 bet with any flush draw or open ender. Now you dont like your hand very much, and you are stuck in a huge pot.

well, then you won't be raising the turn at least, and depending on flop action, may be able to fold


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whos' odds are you cutting down on the turn?

the Button is 1 of 3 others besides the SB who may be in the hand with you.

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glad after days of thought, you "solve" this after one post and two responses.
Does this mean you won't be PM'ing Daniel?

Already did. He said hes too busy. Anyways, seems you are upset? By cutting down odds, Im talking about the pot odds Im offering the button and back to the others. Thier odds are worse on the turn for 2 bets then on the flop. Not to mention if you raise the flop, there is no getting away from the hand. The pot would be too big. If you wait to raise the turn, you can get away easy if its a scare card. Also, this isnt the first post Ive made about this. If you read my original post, you would have read that its been discussed elsewhere. Sorry to bruise your ego.. but maybe post from start to finish how you play the hand and we'll discuss. I gotta go to work now, so Ill check it out tonight.

I appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to teach us how to play this hand, blue. I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to play it.

Well.. The post was asking the best way to play it. So apparently you couldnt have taken too much time to read it

But Im glad you so expertly knew how to play it at first look, since a few of the high stakes limit pros at NWP couldn't even agree on the best way to play it. You must be a superstar. TP/MM

All I was saying is that after thinking about it and talking about it, I've come to my own conclusion that it was played right. Thats all...

discuss.

Are you saying you can't fold TPTK if there is heavy action on this hand? Just because you raised the flop ?

You are not cutting odds down, except to the button. The other two have already called a bet (well, one folded) But on the flop...if you think " I'll wait for the turn to face them with worse odds'.... you aren't facing them with odds sufficiently poor to draw to anything they would draw to already having called SB's lead.. Unless you mean SB will 3-bet for you to help protect your hand..but surely, that's not what you hope for.

I have a small ego as far as poker goes. I'm too new to have a big one.

I'm not angry, just confused by your bad analysis.

You may have made the better play, you just are giving bad reasons.

Who the **** is this guy?


Dude, **** off if you are gonna come here with an attitude like that. Stick with NWP. AINEC.

- Zach

You played the whole have very well IMO.

Edit: You seem like a ****. Why even bother posting here if the NWP pros couldn't agree on it? Was Daniel going to sway you one way or the other? Maybe you should go over to 2+2 and see what the pros there think. Pretty soon, everyone who's anyone will be talking about this unbelievably complex hand, and you'll get staked so you don't have to play in your crummy 4/8 live game anymore.

You are gay.

Just because my avatar is a picture of a shirtless dude does not mean I want to blow my load in his ***.

How graphic of you.

And who the **** are you. last I checked, this is Al Gore's internet. Not yours. For your info, it wasn't me who started in with the attitude. Go back and read again. How dare I post a hand history about limit holdem theory and ask opinions on...limit holdem theory

Discuss the hand, or just keep it to yourself. I don't care how elite you think you are because of the # of posts you've made here.

Whoa, guys. Everyone just needs to cool it a bit.

As for the hand, I think waiting until the turn is okay, except you run the risk of letting the button come along with dangerous trash.

This isn't a situation where "waiting for the turn" is necessarily a no-brainer, though. At no point are you going to be able to face anyone with 2-bets cold, unless the small-blind check-raises, in which case your hand's probably dead anyway.

All in all, I'd probably raise the flop in the hopes that bad players are coming along with ugly draws they're willing to give up for a single bet on the turn. Overcard hands that miss the flop may (correctly) play the hand like this, as may gutshots. I'd raise the flop, to make the hand easier to play, and hope that a bad player might make the mistake of folding INCORRECTLY on the turn when you or the SB bets.

On another note, everyone needs to calm down. It was mildly presumptuous of the OP to post a hand asking for advice, and immediately answer his question. Seems like you're showing off, a little, especially once you admitted you're probably repeating the advice of someone from another forum.

At the same time, jeez guys... chill. He was just saying. No need to jump all down his throat. You guys were WAY out of line on this one. All told, you guys were way bigger di cks than he was. He seemed like he was trying to be genial....

No wonder this forum never gets any bigger.

Wang

I wasn't intending to answer my own question. It sort of just made sense after I was re-reading what I wrote. Thats all.. then when I replied to the reply about raising the flop and why I thought it was an error (why I THOUGHT.. never did I say IM RIGHT and YOURE WRONG), instead of agreeing or making a counterpoint, he got all pissy. That started the onslaught. And one thing I don't put up with is people who think they are better because they have more posts. Thats the single most retarded thing on the net. We're all here to learn, no?

I'm not sure of the level of sarcasm of this portion of your post, but either way it got me to laugh, so well played.

And since I'm posting, I suppose I should comment on the hand which I think was played fine. Like Actuary said, though, no strong draw is getting incorrect odds to draw at any point, so a raise on the flop for value is definitely okay by me. I think the way people tend to perceive calling two on the turn differently might sway my opinion back toward waiting for the turn, though. To me, this one is fairly close and not the most consequential hand I've ever seen.

I stand by my attitude and advice.

We are not facing field ever with two cold, except possibly Button, on flop.
We can wait for tuen for the same reasno you would wait for turn anytime board is scary: Hoping your equity goes up. I've always thought you bet before the draws come in, while your hand is likely ahead, or while the info is cheaper. Bad relative pos to ever protect.

anyway..that's been discussed we have diff opinions, no big deal.

To Wang: I know HotBacon, Zach and Me.... when someone starts saying our post count matters that is a sign off defensiveness right off the bat. I make one sarcasticlly funny (geeeze, that's who I am) comnment and he assumes he bruises my ego. THen, I come back and try to offer more advice. Anyway..I think you are wrong; but I do agree that the burden is on us to be less dickful than newbs.

Actuary,
If anyone got defensive at all, it was you. The second I challenged your reasoning about raising the flop (not saying you were wrong mind you, just my view), you got very assholeish/defensive with your sarcastic reply. Don't try to play like you were kidding now.

You can have your precious forum back now. Sorry you felt so threatened. Bye.

Don't let the door hit your *** on the way out.

The hand itself isnt really tricky.

It's just that there are two options that probably are roughly as good as the other.


I like raising the flop against passive players just because it makes my hand easier to play on the turn. And you KNOW you can raise now. There's no promise that a passive player will bet the turn just because no one raises on the previous street.

lol.
You are az clown.
Anyone that knows me here knows I was kidding..sarcasm.
I don't have to say it..and you can believe it if you want to..

I was only commenting on how quickly you came back to let us know the answer.

Once the drugs wear off, come back and read this, but first put your ego aside.


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oh..and of course I"m going to defend why I suggested raisng flop.wtf am I supposed to do.
That in no way meant I'm upset or hurt or whatever.

Is this about the comment you made about him PMing negreanu?

I have to admit i grinned.


But you're obviously still an *******.

Maybe so.
I was being serious.
He has something to that effect in his subtitle.
Seems like a swell fella.