Full ring game.



UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP calls, Button calls.

Hero checks BB with

Flop comes

Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP folds, Button calls.

Turn

Hero checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

River

Hero checks, UTG bets, Button folds, Hero calls.

Raise pf.
Bet the flop.
Bet the turn.
Bet the river.
Win more money.

Edit: I'll explain, because the above is pretty worthless.

Raise pf because AQs is a monster hand. It does good multiway because of it's suitedness, and may well win with top pair. You have a huge equity advantage pf, and need to exploit it. A hand like AJo can be checked.

Bet the flop because you have TPTK. You did this, good.

Bet the turn because you still probably have teh best hand. No need to give anyone credit for a five. So you bet because your opponents call too much. Notice that if you are in the lead, it is unlikely you will get outdrawn because your opponents probably have at most 3 outs against you. Let them make the mistake of putting more money in the pot.

Bet the river for teh same reasons you bet the turn. You can't expect anyone to bet it for you, so you bet. If you bet the turn and got raised, a check/call would be acceptable here. Since the turn got checked through, you simply must bet and allow your opponents to put in more money with a weaker hand.

Agreed on all accounts.

This is a pretty standard hand and you'll run into situations with hands like this a lot. The above advice is good. Make sure you understand it and can replicate it in a game. Good Luck.

I think the biggest mistake I made was not raising preflop. I say this, because if I raised preflop I'm assuming UTG would reraise me.

The reason I didn't raise preflop is two-fold, but in retrospect probably not justification enough. One, I am badly out of position in this hand, and if I miss the flop I'm going to have a hard time. Two, against bad players if I raise I take away chances for them to make mistakes. In a raised multiway pot they'd be right to stay in on the flop for one bet.

As it turns out UTG had pocket aces, and truthfully, I can't get upset about this hand. I guess he was hoping for a raise preflop so he could reraise, and then he was scared of the fives like I was, but still seems like a strange way to play it.

Being results oriented sucks.

Playing the hand correctly you win a lot more on average. If this is how you normally play TPTK you really should take a look at your game because you have some very serious leaks.

Checking the turn isnt always bad.

If you have a bluff-monkey behind you who will reliably bet when checked to, i have no objections to trying to checkraise the turn.

I have a feeling htat you werent going for a check/raise though.

Please don't be scared of an LRR. It's so silly. It rarely ever happens. The one time it does, you are raising with a playable hand anyways, so don't miss out on tons of value when he doesn't 3-bet you. Also, take a not on the retard that is UTG. Being fancy like he is trying to do is so useless at these games, IMO.

- Zach

No, no, that was my point. I should have raised, because then he probably would have reraised and I might have had a better idea where I was in the hand.

As for the rest, I know I misplayed the hand, I was trying to figure out why and where, so I appreciate all the help and insight.

j

How the hell do you figure that he "probably" would have reraised?

Don't ever think of results when thinking about how you played a hand.

When I post a hand, I don't even remember what the results were a couple days later when the discussion is dying down, but I sure learn how to play the hand as it is happening, instead of backward looking.

- Zach

The bolded portion belies a fundamental error in the way you think about the game. Raising "to see where you are" is NOT as important as you think it is; generally, realizing where you stand in the hand is an ancillary benefit to raising, and shouldn't be your concern. Firstly, bad players won't react to a raise in a predictable manner. Secondly, even if you're certain a player's actions in a hand would be rational or predictable, the information you gain is often ambiguous. If someone reraises, it could be for myriad reasons, some of them intentionally DECEPTIVE. If someone calls your raise from the BB here, any player (rational or irrational) would call with ANY HAND. So you gain nothing (except tons of value).

Don't raise for information. Raise for value, deception, or as a bluff/semibluff, and use the information you gather to make better decisions later.

As to your concerns about position: they shouldn't be big enough to discourage a raise here. Your hand's equity is enormous. Utilize it. You can fade being out of position with AQs.

As to your concerns about the Sklanskyesque notion of allowing players to make bigger mistakes on later streets: they aren't an issue here, because (a) you're suited, and therefore your equity skyrockets in a multiway pot; ( Sklansky himself has even backed off of (to some degree) his contention that raising from the blinds in a multiway pot with a hand like AQo is a mistake. ( is irrelevant because you're suited, mofo.

Also, Screech pretty much hit this nail right on the head. You should probably bet/3-bet the flop, and lead the turn/river until someone lets you know you're no good. LET BAD PLAYERS MAKE MISTAKES! LET BAD PLAYERS PUT UNWARRANTED MONEY INTO THE POT! This is how you win money at poker.


Sorry for the length, but I can't in good conscience ignore some of the fundamental errors in your thought process. If I'm harsh, it's only because I care/want to show off.

Cheers,

Wang

Good post Wang,

I've made posts about this before... here's my best one, just to add to the discussion, and that I have very few quality posts, and this is one of my best, so I want to show it again

Thanks everyone for all the help/info. Harsh is exactly what I want, because I KNOW I'm making lots of mistakes. The problem is you can make lots of mistakes and still win consistently at lower limits, so alot of the time I don't even realize I'm making a mistake.

I realize that raising for info is a big mistake, but I admit I do bet for information sometimes. Basically you're telling me AQs is good enough to jam preflop, I guess I should just stop worrying about AK or the big pairs and just start jamming it.

After the flop I have serious problems in marginal situations, I know this and am trying to get better. With a pair showing on the board I'm not sure how valuable my top pair top kicker really is. I guess I just need to start pushing my edges more and stop worrying about throwing money in the pot when I'm not entirely sure where I'm at.

Everyone on this forum is doing a great job helping me and I appreciate it, I'll probably keep posting as long as everyone doesn't get sick of listening to my mistakes.

jere

A quick note: In micro-limit and low-limit Hold'em games, most hands should be played straightforward because in general opponents at those levels are not sophisticated enough to be "trapped" or deceived in the first place. After all, you can't trick a blind guy by creating optical illusions.\

Checking when you should bet is -Ev and you just missed a chance to get more money in the pot when you have the best hand.

I play it like Screech up to the river. I tend to check/call the river. I find TPTK a tough hand to bet the river with. I think better hands almost always raise. I think worse hands have a hard time calling. I would only expect KQ to pay us off here. If we get flat-called on every street, I dont expect to see KQ at SD. Check will sometimes induce a bluff.

Thoughts?

I find TPTK to be an easy value bet on most boards.

Of course, this depends a lot on the texture, but I'm almost always value betting it.

Bad. Zach already mentioned it, but not value betting TPTK as a rule on the river is pretty weak. Let people make mistakes. Bad players tend to commonly go to far with bad hands, and call too often with weak hands. Value bet poor players. That's how good players make money, by getting bets in with hands and letting bad players continually look them up.

Trust me.

Wang