Ortiz or Pujols?


Alright this is the one I want up.

Yeah Koop and all, you've convinced me that Pujols is a better overall player, good job.

It was close but with the stats and the defense I'm convinced.




This however, I will not be convinced of.

Remember what Ortiz did in the 2003 playoffs AND the 2004 playoffs.

In the regular season, David absolutely OWNS the Yankees destroying them and hitting walk off after walk off in every game. Even if he doesn't hit a walk off homer, he'll come up with a big hit in the 7th or 8th inning.

Compare the number of clutch hits that Ortiz has had then look at what Pujols has done......its not close. I know a lot of people may vote for Pujols just because they hate the Red Sox and Yankees but if you look at the numbers, its not close.


"Perhaps most impressive in 2005, he blasted twenty home runs that either tied the game or put the Red Sox ahead."---ESPN.com


Remember this the most CLUTCH player, not the best player.

the 2004 playoffs are the most recent. they are not the only clutch game either of them have played.
most of america would say ortiz because all they hear about is the red sox and yankees, and all they have in mind is what is recent.

any semi-knowledgeable baseball person would take pujols at bat over ortiz in a clutch situation 7 days a week and twice on sunday.
cause umm sundays are important games.

sorry double, but Koop actually got one right this time.
though i did vote for Ortiz in the poll just to start a ruckus.

Yep you're correct.

I better edit my first post.

You show me Albert Pujols hitting walk-off hits in extra-innings on consecutive nights in the playoffs with his team facing elimination, and we can talk.

man, you edit your posts a lot eh?
keeps it interesting

I refuse to answer this out of principle.

Ortiz had one of the best clutch (close and late) seasons ever last year. This can be backed up by the math. He won a couple more games than his statline, indicating that there was a concentration of home runs and RBIs when it mattered most. I broke down many of these stats in an old AL MVP race thread.

However, clutch may of may not even exist. There's no hard statistical evidence, and there is unlikely to be. If anyone's clutch, it's Ortiz, but what does that mean exactly and how do I know Pujols doesn't have it?

true. overall clutch is hard to say, but ortiz' clutch performances last year was exceptional and pretty amazing.

Pujols

Care to give a breakdown of Pujols' performance from the 7th inning on?

Or how about in games eventually decided by 3 or less runs?

Or how about any stats or evidence whatsoever that may offer some insight into this question?





Here's an interesting discussion on Ortiz and his clutchness over at SoSH.

Well...I found this statistic from ESPN.com...these are their numbers from a situation they label as "close and late," which they define as this:

"results in the 7th inning or later with the batting team either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck."

Here are their numbers from 2003-2005 in "close and late situations" in the regular season.

Ortiz:
-At-bats in a "close and late" situation: 221
-Batting Average: .326
-On Base Percentage: .408
-OPS: 1.132
-Homeruns: 22
-Runs Batted In: 73

Pujols:
-At-bats in a "close and late" situation: 241
-Batting Average: .324
-On Base Percentage: .426
-OPS: 1.048
-Homeruns: 20
-Runs Batted In: 55

These numbers do show Ortiz to be a little bit better in these particular situations. However, I also showed in the other thread that Pujols' postseason numbers were actually better than Ortiz's postseason numbers. Also, the issue of whether there is even really such a thing as "clutch" in baseball is pretty debatable at best, as mentioned previously. Bottom line, I think that both players hit very well in key situations, but I think that is just because both players hit very well in ALL situations. I think Ortiz just has his reputation as "Mr. Clutch" or whatever because of one postseason run for a team that hadn't won the World Series in forever and this has been pushed BIG TIME by ESPN. Not to say he doesn't deserve the attention he gets, because he does and is a great great hitter, I don't know if you can honestly say that Ortiz is "more clutch" than Pujols. Albert has more than his share of walk-off homeruns/hits in both the regular season and the postseason as well, so I voted for Pujols just because I think he is overall a better hitter and I would rather have him up in a "key situation" just for that reason.

Great post. Sample sizes are small, but you work with what you have. Bottom line, great post.

Thank you.

Yeah, sample size is small....I'm not really looking to provide "the answer," I mean, the numbers I showed are just one statistic and likely don't really encompass all that could be considered a "clutch situation." Really....I just don't put too much stock into certain hitters being more "clutch" than others..I mean....good players hit good in all situations...and the inherent random nature of baseball in the short term simply makes some player's numbers look better in certain situations, but that doesn't really mean they are "better" in those spots. Really..I think a player being "clutch" is really just meaningful for fans of that team/player who can always have the memory of that player coming up big in such an important spot. Thus, BoSox fans hold Ortiz in such high esteem for his "clutch" hits during that postseason run, and rightly so, but it doesn't necessarily make him "more clutch" or "better in the clutch" than other players who either haven't had the chance yet or don't have quite as good of numbers in a small amount of plate appearances. For example, who is to say that Mike Sweeney, if given the chance to play in the World Series, wouldn't be the "most clutch" player of all time? We can never really know..but you would certainly be apt to call Ortiz "more clutch" than Sweeney...despite us never really knowing for sure. Bottom line....good players hit well no matter the spot.















Except for Gay-Rod.

OWNED!!!!!

Soooo David has Pujols beat in almost all the categories but hes still not better?

Guess there must be a lot of Cardinal fans or something. I mean what else do you need? The numbers prove that Ortiz is better, the playoffs prove that Ortiz is better and the playoffs prove that Ortiz is better. Listen, I'm not trying to take anything away from Pujols because hes an excellent player and would probably be the second guy up I want in the bottom of the 9th but this one is simple.

Why does everyone keep on saying that it was 1 playoff that made him? Did ya not see that stat last regular season? Do you not remember what he did in the 2003 playoffs?

Koop, I respect your opinion man. And Sweeney has been a very clutch player throughout his career and if he had a chance in the ws, he might be regarded higher than Ortiz but unfortunately we'll never know.

Ortiz has Pujols beat BY A LITTLE BIT in ONLY that ONE statistic I showed. That statistic of "close and late" does not encompass everything "clutch situation" there is. I already explained this and explained exactly why I say Pujols is "more clutch" than Ortiz.

Also, you bring up Ortiz's playoff numbers to prove your point. I already showed the playoff numbers in another thread. Here they are again.

David Ortiz:

In a total of 8 postseason series from 2002-2005, here are his numbers:

Batting Average: .301
On Base Percentage: .383
OPS: .935
Homeruns: 8
RBI: 32

Albert Pujols:

In a total of 8 postseason series from 2001-2005, here are the numbers:

Batting Average: .336
On Base Percentage: .428
OPS: 1.048
Homeruns: 10
RBI: 29


Pujols' postseason numbers are BETTER. Yeah, Ortiz was "clutch" in the postseason, but so was Pujols.

Also, I already explained why I voted for Pujols. Great hitters hit great in all situations. They don't just magically do better in certain spots over others. Are you telling me that with noone on and nobody out in a game Boston is winning by 4 runs, that Ortiz doesn't try very hard in those spots, because it isn't a "clutch" situation?? Until you can prove that he does EXACTLY that....you can't say that Ortiz is "more clutch" in "clutch" spots. They are both great hitters, but Pujols is a better hitter overall. Thus, in a key spot, I'd take the better hitter. Ortiz doesn't "become stronger" when it is a "clutch" situation. He doesn't "have better eyesight" in a "clutch" situation. He doesn't "all of a sudden become smarter" in a "clutch" situation. The hitters stay the same. Thus, in a clutch situation, I'll take Pujols. Both players have had their share of memorable walk-off home runs and RBI's and all that...just because Ortiz had a few more in more chances doesn't make him "more clutch."

Yes you do make a valid point here. I understand what you're saying. Ortiz doesn't become smarter or stronger but hes proved time after time in the regular season AND post season that he doesnt crack under pressure. I'm not saying that Pujols does but I think Ortiz has an edge over him and most people outside of FCP would say that Ortiz is definitely more clutch than Ortiz.

You may say that thats because of ESPN or whatever but every baseball analyst in America cant be wrong. Or can they?

I can guarantee that if you asked EVERY basebally analyst in America who they would want at the plate with Game 7 of the World Series on the line, not EVERY one would say Ortiz. I don't know who would win, but I think Pujols would have just as good of a shot at winning that poll than Ortiz.

And again, Pujols' playoff numbers are better than Ortiz's playoff numbers. How does that prove that Ortiz is better or "more clutch" in the playoffs??

I say what I say not because of ESPN or anything like that, but because I know baseball well. Yes, I remember a lot of Ortiz's big hits in big situations. Are you saying that if you put Pujols is EVERY one of those exact situations, that he would perform worse?? There is NO way you can possibly say that, so you can't just say that Ortiz is better because he has had some big hits for Boston in their postseason runs the past couple years, when in fact Pujols has done similar things for the Cardinals. Pujols is a better hitter and his playoff numbers are better, so give me Pujols in the "clutch" situation.

Alright fair enough. Thats your opinion. This really isn't going anywhere. You would take Pujols, I'll take Ortiz.

Like Jerry and George in Seinfeld ... "agree to disagree"

Haha you know it.

Clutch is a garbage argument. Do you what the difference between being clutch and being the goat is?...an inch. Someone who gets a game-winning hit just over the second baseman's glove is considered clutch...If that ball is one inch lower he is a goat. Someone hits a dinky ground ball that gets through the infield it's considered that the "ball had eyes". That same person hits an absolute rocket, but it's right at the RF then "he just couldn't get it done".

If a person is only good at certain points in the game then you must question why he's not doing it the entire game. The problem with being clutch is that it's all completely random.

yeah asking who is more clutch isn't a great question. I actually kind of agree with you, for once.

There is a god j/k

You make a good point. Unfortunately David's 450 blasts over the right field wall isn't random.

which leads us to the question of who the better overall player is...

basically, clutch is a garbage stat.
if a player is "clutch" its because
1 - variance went his way at important times
2 - he talks a lot (messier and others) and then seems like he's backing it up
3 - he tries harder in important situations

none of those reflect positively on a player (in my opinion) and therefore "clutchness" is meaningless.

another stupid debate bcuz they are both great~ lol~

u nubs~

Only thing stupid in this thread is you.

AND THAT'S A FACT, JACK!

I dont think these are valid. Ortiz doesn't talk a lot but when hes in Boston and is asked a ton of questions after every game he has to answer them.

I think everybody tries their best in big situations IMO.

well, Mr. Clutch strikes again.....and I'm not talking Ortiz.

Does anyone remember Pujols stats in the 2004 World Series?

Papi got my vote

Does anyone remember that time I showed that Pujols' numbers were better than Ortiz's numbers overall in the postseason?

Pujols is the answer.

Does anyone remember me showing Pujols and Ortiz's exact stats in the 2004 World Series which were almost identical except for Ortiz' ultimately meaningless HR in the first at-bat of the Series?

Guess not.

Does anyone remember Ortiz in games 4 and 5 of the ALCS with his team facing elimination against their hated rival?

2 extra-inning walk-off hits in the span of 24 hours.

Pujols is the better player, but he's never done anything like that.

It isn't Pujols' fault that the Cubs have never made it to the playoffs to give Pujols that chance....can't punish him for that.


Also, Pujols DID hit a HR to stave off elimination against Lidge.....so he's got one and he'll have more.

What a sweet home run that was. Just an absolute bomb in a pressure filled situation against an elite closer.

I wonder what those espousing some magical clutchness quality in Ortiz makes of his distinctly unclutch hitting this year. It's almost Arod-esque.

Clutch hitting is random. If the question was reworded to say "Who would hit better in the clutch," then the winner would be the better hitter and we all know who that is.

(except for a drunken doublemeup)

The word 'clutch' has totally lost meaning to me.

Its like 'road' in Black Sheep.

Thanks.

I'm done.