Last week I set a goal for myself to win a bracelet by the time I'm 35 (I turn 23 next week, so I have a while). Well, then I found out I'll be in Vegas for a little over 2 days in the middle of july and out of curiosity, i checked what WSOP event was the day i got in... Razz.

This was quite funny as I - and, apparently i'm the only person here - absolutely love razz. In my home game we play dealers choice, and I've been slowly introducing them to it. I find it much easier to bear "bad beats", etc in razz.

So tomorrow begins my Razz odyssey. I'm starting with 100 and I have 3 months to hit 1,500. My dad actually offered to stake me, but I want to see if i can make my buy in playing nothing but Razz. Unfortunately I have to do it on full tilt as FCP has no razz.

Now, I'll be studying super system's relatively brief section, but as far as resources, it seems to be barely spoken of on pocketfives or 2+2. Where else can i read up on razz, etc.

You've mentioned what I know about, so some spelunking around the net is your best bet. I too love razz.

Gl in your Razz Odyssey haha, maybe we'll see you on the final table with everyone talking about how the new kid "knows his razz."

Razz it up

Monty

I'm sure you know, but Full Tilt has razz, so that will be your best bet in turning 100 into 1500 by July. Im not sure if they are actually giving away seats, but you could probably play razz tourneys and ring games until you have the roll.

About the strategy... check the net, as I don't know anything about razz.

Good luck.

James

super system one has a section on razz, pretty complete

Read that and Lederer's article "A simple razz hand". I honestly felt the SS1 section was more of an afterthought than an in-depth analysis, and other than a few nuggets was pretty much common sense.

I absolutely love Razz too. Ever since I watched the 03 event with Cloutier, Boyd and Lederer, I have loved playing razz. It sucks tho how it is very unspread even among online poker sites. I have been playing a couple of those 3:30ET Razz/Horse freerolls just to be able to play the game and have finished in the money on a few. I too hope to enter a Razz tourney once I turn 21 in a few years. I feel it is one of my strongest games and would love to play more of it.

I was actually discussing Razz with Barbara Enwright this past week in a $125 Omaha 8 or Better tournament at the Bicycle Casino. She was to my right in seat 2. She told me that she very seldom ever sees the game spread and when I told her it was on FTP she recommended using it to get your feet wet and to gain experience. She normally plays on partypoker she told me but after I told her about the fact that FTP is doing entries into the smaller events she said she might give that whirl.

Ive recently started playing razz myself. Have done ok. I play a lot of Stud 8 or better and Omaha 8 or better so the transition to Razz seemed natural.

Yep, been playing .25-.50 on FT the last couple days to get a feel for it. Up about 3bb/hour. I realize that's laughable at that level, but i'm trying to safely grind this out and will be moving to .5-1 later this week or this weekend as I get a better feel for the game.

Sklansky has a great book on Razz. It's a little conservative for all but the highest of games, but it'll really give you a foothold on some advanced concepts and smaller details of the game. They don't print it anymore, but I'm told it's been reprinted in its entirety in Sklansky on Poker.

just ordered it, thanks boss

This looks like a great event. 1500 starting chips with limits at 10-20 with a 5 ante. Slow levels, one hour... seems really nice.

I'm sure you have seen it but

Event 33 RAZZ

Good luck and keep updating...

James

.25 .50 up to 1-2 probably 95% of the players you'll play suck at razz

2-4 and 3-6 maybe 50% suck and 30% are pretty bad, and there are a few good players scattered in there.

even at 5-10 and 8-16 ( i havent gone higher than 8-16) you'll find a fair number of shitty razz players. I havent been playing much razz recently but I think Im going to get back into playing it soon. Im challenging myself to deposit $10 on full tilt and run it up big just playing razz games starting at .25 .50, should be fun. If you want to talk strategy you should post a few hands at some point for analysis.

Trying to make sense out of the players at the low levels is absolutely driving me nuts. My 7 high will get called (not raised) for 2 rounds after a guy makes a 5 low, then the same guy will call me down with trips showing. I may just move straight to 1-2 when i get to $200 to hopefully find some rhyme and reason in what folks are doing.

Low limit razz online is absolute insanity. I have no idea what game some of these people think they are playing.

Monty

Razz is a pretty easy game. I really hope to play in a major Razz event at the WSOP when I am legal in 3 years.

I also love razz!!!! I don't know of too much advice to give you other than to use the twodimes.net odds calculator, but I will try...

One important concept that I'm sure you know about - bad players will think that a (for example) J-9 low on 5th is the nuts if you have a pair showing, when in reality you probably have very good odds w/ 2 cards to come if you're drawing to a 6, 7, or maybe even an 8, depending on your second kicker. Bad players just do not understand this concept.

Raise at every opportunity when you have a slight advantage against bad players (such as in the situation above), and maybe even sometimes on 3rd or 4th when you may be a slight dog. This will increase your variance but if you win the hand, and they do not understand why, they will begin to come after you (aka tilt) to win their $$ back.

Also as you move up pay more and more attention to the low cards that have been discarded.

Also I find that a tight, solid strategy works from .50/1 to 5-10.

I love Razz too.

completely agree with raising when you are a slight favorite, assuming you have the bankroll to withstand big swings. it will make for big swings, since most of the time in razz (even with 1 card to go) you are at best 70-30 to win, more often 60-40 (standard rough 10 vs draw to a 7 or something). Pump the pot when you're sure you're ahead, even if its only slightly ahead on the middle streets, then check call every time if you know they're drawing.

and if you're playing full table stick to premium starting hands unless you play like me and try to steal every pot on 3rd

Do you always try for a steal when you have the lowest or at least second lowest door card, regardless of position and regardless of your hole cards?

Monty

No definitely not - this is suicide. Assuming that "stealing" means that you don't really have the hand that you are representing, a good rule of thumb for stealing in any stud game is to only attempt it if you:

a.) are one, two, or three to the right of the bring-in

and

b.) there is at MOST one other player in between you and the bring-in who MAY have you beat.

In stud this means that if you have a Q up it's ok to steal if there is only a K in between you and the bring in, but if he calls or raises play cautiously, probably meaning you need to throw it away on 3rd w/o two nice backup cards.

In razz you're looking for cards 8 or lower, in general, so it's ok to steal if you have a 7 up and a 3 in between you and the bring-in, but not if two other players have up-cards that are 8 or lower.

Unlike the stud example, if you get raised, I find that it's not bad to call even with a high card in the hole, because if your opponent catches a bad on 4th and you catch a baby, you now have a legit hand to draw to/ bluff with.

Also I don't know if I've ever stolen with two high cards in the hole, but that's not to say that I wouldn't try it!

edit: To better clarify/ answer your question, consider these examples --

If you have a T7/ 2 in early position and you are facing a 3, 6, and 8 behind you, this is a definite fold even though you have the lowest door card.

If you have a K3/ 7 in late position and you are facing a 5 and a Q(bring-in) then this is a good spot to attempt a steal.

With regard to my earlier comment about calling if you get raised, I probably wouldn't call a raise if I had something like KT/ 3 but I would with K3/ 7.

Cool. Thanks for the info. I'm still developing my razz, stud8 and stud game knowledge so any information is greatly appreciated.

Monty

Yeah, if you have any insight I would like to hear from you as well. I think stud is my worst game at the moment, so I'd like to get into that some more.

On a side note, I am currently playing $5/$10 razz and I have tried to mix in a little more agression on 3rd street. In light of that last post, and my results today, I think that it is occasionally ok to play based solely on your board cards. As long as you can react correctly on each street, the pots that you "steal" in this manner actually help to alleve the bad beats that can occur when you start with a solid hand. Just don't do it too much, just like in any other poker variation.

I began being more aggressive on 3rd when I realized that 6 of the 8 players are solid razz players, and a very large percentage of the pots are being taken on 3rd - I was being out-aggressed at first.

But for the lower limits, definitely just play solid and tight.

This hand literally made me laugh out loud

Full Tilt Poker Game #585926693: Table Danville - $0.50/$1 Ante $0.10 - Limit Razz - 18:01:23 ET - 2006/04/22
Seat 1: 74er ($29.50)
Seat 2: jnjdav ($6.35)
Seat 3: JonesMcGee ($22.95)
Seat 4: MathMatt ($21.45)
Seat 5: anakedcowboy ($17.45)
Seat 6: BoondockSaint ($20.90)
Seat 7: Racer29 ($10.75)
Seat 8: Rockkon ($9.65)
MathMatt antes $0.10
BoondockSaint antes $0.10
anakedcowboy antes $0.10
jnjdav antes $0.10
Rockkon antes $0.10
JonesMcGee antes $0.10
74er antes $0.10
Racer29 antes $0.10
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to 74er [Ks]
Dealt to jnjdav [Ah]
Dealt to JonesMcGee [7h]
Dealt to MathMatt [Jh]
Dealt to anakedcowboy [8c 6d] [3s]
Dealt to BoondockSaint [Td]
Dealt to Racer29 [4s]
Dealt to Rockkon [3h]
74er is high with [Ks]
74er completes it to $0.50
jnjdav folds
JonesMcGee has 15 seconds left to act
JonesMcGee calls $0.50
MathMatt has 15 seconds left to act
MathMatt is sitting out
MathMatt has timed out
MathMatt folds
anakedcowboy calls $0.50
BoondockSaint folds
Racer29 folds
Rockkon calls $0.50
MathMatt has returned
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to 74er [Ks] [2c]
Dealt to JonesMcGee [7h] [3d]
Dealt to anakedcowboy [8c 6d 3s] [5d]
Dealt to Rockkon [3h] [Qc]
anakedcowboy bets $0.50
Rockkon folds
74er raises to $1
JonesMcGee calls $1
anakedcowboy raises to $1.50
74er calls $0.50
JonesMcGee calls $0.50
*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to 74er [Ks 2c] [Tc]
Dealt to JonesMcGee [7h 3d] [5c]
Dealt to anakedcowboy [8c 6d 3s 5d] [4h]
anakedcowboy bets $1
74er calls $1
JonesMcGee calls $1
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to 74er [Ks 2c Tc] [8h]
Dealt to JonesMcGee [7h 3d 5c] [5h]
Dealt to anakedcowboy [8c 6d 3s 5d 4h] [9h]
anakedcowboy bets $1
74er calls $1
JonesMcGee calls $1
*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to anakedcowboy [8c 6d 3s 5d 4h 9h] [2d]
anakedcowboy bets $1
74er calls $1
JonesMcGee folds
*** SHOW DOWN ***
anakedcowboy shows [8c 6d 3s 5d 4h 9h 2d] (6,5,4,3,2)
74er mucks
anakedcowboy wins the pot ($14.55) with 6,5,4,3,2
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $15.30 | Rake $0.75
Seat 1: 74er mucked [Ts 7d Ks 2c Tc 8h Ad] - T,8,7,2,A
Seat 2: jnjdav folded on 3rd St.
Seat 3: JonesMcGee folded on 7th St.
Seat 4: MathMatt folded on 3rd St.
Seat 5: anakedcowboy showed [8c 6d 3s 5d 4h 9h 2d] and won ($14.55) with 6,5,4,3,2
Seat 6: BoondockSaint folded on 3rd St.
Seat 7: Racer29 folded on 3rd St.
Seat 8: Rockkon folded on 4th St.

Wow...his board cards were scary but I guess the really funny part was the bring-in sticking around for so long with a K up - not just sticking around but raising! You're right, that is just atrocious (sp?).

Cool, I'll let you know if I notice anything during my razz adventures.

On a side note of my own,

Stud is by FAR my worst game. I am comfortable with razz and stud8, though still getting my game-face at those tables. But stud, ugh.

Monty

Sometimes I do just because Im a crazy razz maniac

If there are more than 2 people in front of me showing 8 or lower unless I have a good read on them and know them to be weak tight Im not going to try to steal. If everyone in front of me has 9 or higher Im raising to steal it every time. Even if I get called Im going to bet again on 4th and keep applying pressure unless I draw really bad and they draw really good. If theres only 1 low card in front of me I'll probably try to steal if I have a decent hand (AT)5 or something like that, so even if I get called Im probably not that far behind. The key to stealing is that you have to have something good showing obviously, your door card is the most important part of your starting hand, your down cards dont mean anything unless the hand gets to showdown.

and yes I am a total razz maniac that destroys people in short handed and heads up games but used to play way too crazy for full table but Im working on adjusting my game so I dont steal as much full table and just wait for good starting hands.

Well I tilted for the first time in awhile yesterday and lost almost $300 at $5-$10. Razz really can be frustrating when you start with A2/3 and catch Q84J, lol. Since I only have $1100 in my account now I will probably drop to $3/6 next time I play, but I am going to concentrate on NL holdem for a bit in order to get back up to $1500+.

This is my favorite thread by far. I haven't posted here before, but I thank everyone for their stories and suggestions. FCP!

Cuz we're all so pretty or cuz it's about razz? sw

Great point though, great discussion/strategy and advice. I'm a razz newb, but I'm working, cuz it looks like HORSE is the game of the future... plus we want DN to like us, cuz we're not NL donks (sw again)

Good luck to all

James

Does anyone have any info on what good razz hand history statistics would be?

Monty

LOL well if you care that much - I now have $1650 after a final table and destroying the $33 NL sngs - shameless brag!!! - no real razz except for I played $8-16, dropped a couple hundred at first, then made it back. That session was scary but I'm glad I made it back.

I am thinking of trying to qualify for the $50,000 HORSE tournament. That would be insane.

I'm having general difficulty in that everyone will go to the river with me, regardless of how tight i play. Even with a monster like 3 5 | A 2, i'm still getting callers all the way to the river drawing to at best a 9 high. This sounds fantastic, except when my next 4 cards pair me or are paint. Happened to me a few too many times the past few days and i'm taking it easy until sklansky on razz comes tomorrow.

Are you raising or limping most of the time with premium starting hands?

Monty

complete or raise if already completed. keeping in mind what of my "outs" are up and what of my hole cards are up (as this decreases the chances that I will pair up)

Yeah, if you can't get a few people out at the beginning and there are a lot of calling stations, razz can get pretty frustrating. Just keep a even head and you'll win out against them in the long run.

Monty

You're still playing lower limits right? I suggest playing $2/4 or $3/6 if you can -- there is a major assumption in most basic strategies for any form of poker, and that is that your opponents are rational -- in the lower limits, usually your opponents are irrational, which can be GREAT but it can also lead to some MAJOR swings in terms of BB/hr or whatever. My opinion is that it is literally possible to NEVER get out of the .50/1 level in your entire lifetime simply because the variance is so high (in razz, holdem, omaha, whatever). Which means that it is probably a better move to step a little outside of your bankroll and try not to get unlucky at a higher level (note the way I worded that), and watch your roll grow significantly.

How rational is 1/2 ? That's as high as i feel I can sit based on bankroll alone

This is terrible advice. No matter how high your variance is, you're going to make more bets in the long run playing low limits against bad players than you will playing high limits against good players. If this kind of games not beatable, it will be because of the rake and a high ante structure, not the variance due to calling stations.

I'm not saying they're unbeatable at all. I don't feel like explaining my reasoning again - but have you ever played $3/6 holdem at the casino? If so you know what I'm talking about.

Yes, you will make more bets in the long run playing lower limits, but the bets in the higher limits are, well, higher, lol, and from experience I think it is more profitable to skip the lower limits and play for real $$.

What I was taking issue with was the statement that you could play 0.5/1 for your whole lifetime and never make enough money to move up due to the variance. My point was that no matter how high the variance it becomes negligible in the long run, and even in a never fold game, that won't take more than 10 or 20 thousand hands to reach.

However, if you're trying to learn how to play the game properly and you can afford it, then I'd agree that you probably want to start at a somewhat reasonable level.

(P.S. The only live game I could play from August to December was 3/6, although it was all full of nitty college students and was much tighter than the higher stakes games I play now.)

I'll be in Vegas from May 7-11. Are there any Razz games that are not $400-$800 at Bellagio?

I did a quick google, and it turns out the Mirage spreads a 15/30 razz game and higher of course. Hope this helps...

James

Thanks James.