Wondering what the best way to go about this hand is. I wanted input step by step. just because I took a weird line I think.

2/4 online (no hand history)
UTG: passive, a little weak pot flop
Button: TAG

UTG limp, I raise with k q , Button 3 bets, UTG calls, I call.

Flop ($21)

3 3 : 8

UTG check, I???

This is a weird one. I guess you can either bet/call or check/call. If you bet button will certainly raise and that likely closes out UTG, so I guess that's the route I'd go. I dunno though.

Instead of bet/call, what about bet/3bet? (not the line I took, but went through my head.) Would this get a fold out of a whiffed AK?

Not to say that I wouldn't/haven't bet/3bet hands exactly like this, I think should be the exception, not the rule. I think the main thing is to squeeze out UTG.

I think this is a bet/call situation. Once you accomplish the task of shutting UTG out of the pot, you can play it pretty straight. The optimal situation would be the button raising with a hand like JJ and the UTG player folding something like AcXx, or something like a lamely played AQ. That being said, I don't think we should be THAT concerned with whether the UTG player comes along or not, because our draw is so good.

Wang

I guess I'm kinda curiuos why I want UTG gone. I'm not ahead of the button right now and don't know which of my outs (outside of the clubs) if any would be good. If I want UTG to fold, then I'm looking to fold AK, AQ of the button? If I want him in, then I want more money in the pot for when I make my draw?

I c/c

I'd prefer not to be OOP vs a TAG 3-bettor.
Also other callers helps our implied odds.

I c/c too. UTG's range is AA-99, AK, and maybe AQs. So you don't have enough equity 3-way to go for a check/raise. You also don't have enough equity HU, so bet/calling puts you at a disadvantage. Since knocking out UTG isn't a huge concern (you are usually behind to him, and you have little fold equity against him), the best play on this flop is to check/call.

Screech,

I'm having trouble following.
Are you mixing up UTG and Button?
I'm at work though and can't read it slowly.

I decided to C/C

Button bet, UTG called, (I'm fairly sure I would knock out UTG with a C/R here), i called.

turn:
5

UTG checks, I????

you check/call of course.

Why is this diffcult!

I don't get the drama.

I'm guessing on turn, Button bets and UTG Raises?
If so, pot is (10.5 + 3) / 2 + 3 BB = about 9.5. So you call, and prefer Button no 3 bet..however, you'll still have odds to call a cap back to you.
Had you figured on a UTG c/r, Button 3-bet, UTG cap.. you could fold to the first time you have to call 2 cold.
I would not think though, that Button routinely 3-bets the turn after a UTG c/r.

I think you are drawing live enough to make a call for 2 cold on the turn, when you figure it's rarely going to be 2 again back to you.

Did I hit on the main drama?

Nope. way off. No drama here. I was never actually worried about UTG. The actual action went check from me, bet, call, raise from me. Not trying to hit drama seeing if the only reason to play this hand is to make the flush or not. i've seen people suggest advocating betting with small pairs in these types of situations to run away AK in this spot. (Never understood that and I'm too lazy to go looking for posts. ) Would I have more FE on the flop or a better chance to take away the turn if I had C/red the flop?

Edit: I also thought this hand may give me some input as to what st and what situations are better than others to bluff.

Pot: 6.5 + 1 + 1: 8.5 to you. You Raise.. now Pot 10.5.

yes, interesting line.
I don't like the semi bluff here

Would a thinking player put you on anything here that strong besides 88 (3 combos)

PP are calling and AJ+ will as well.

You may fold one of them on river, but I woudl not think both.
Also, to do so, you have to put in 2 more BB's than just calling turn and folding river. In addition, you can pick up the extra bet with a River c/r when you hit the flush.

My abilities are limited in the area of semi-bluffing turns though.
Generally, I don't like it with this board and your pos in a 3way pot

I'm pretty sure this bet runs out UTG, as I said, he was kinda tight post flop and was sticking around with a small PP hoping me and the CO had overcards. button called and UTG folded. Here, I'm trying to think what he could think he can beat and he probably thinkings he's got a couple outs.

River put up a k and it went check check. if the river was something small, can I bet AK out?

Why has no one said check/raise?


We likely have 12 clean outs. Possibly 15. If UTG calls, it's for value. Even if it's heads up, we'll often be a slight favorite and only occasionally any worse than 40% to win the hand. We can almost always count on a bet from the button too.

We also potentially get a better hand (AQ or AK) to fold the turn unimproved. Especially if UTG gets involves, in which case button will have to recognize that we're not on a pure bluff and will likely back down without any piece.

I'm not used to seeingg someone call the turn and fold for one more closing the action.

I still don't like it.

Also, really makes no sense to me to check the river, given you wanted UTG out. If you think you have enoguh outs to paly HU with Button, why not bet the river?

this is interesting now...maybe I gotz lotz to learn.










Screech addressed it.
Said not enough equity vs 3-bettor range.

you can def. not like it. I wasn't even sure what I thought about it. As you can tell from a lot of my posts, I'm putting myself in what be -EV situations to get a better sense of showdown values and bluffable hands. It seems the moral of this story is to simply C/C to the river and fold if I don't catch my flush. (also call if I catch a k or q.)

Only thing I was sure about was the river as I was fairly sure that the villain had AK with his smooth call of the turn. I would have expected a raise from this particular player with an overpair.

Work? today? It's jesus's death day!

Yeah, I'm mixing them up. I'm sure we had the same idea. This language thing is a ****ing barrier to our thoughts.

I guess you never read my post.

We don't really have a huge equity edge 3-way (something like 39%). So why it seems we should raise, it has to be taken into account that button will have an overpair around 80% of the time. So he will 3-bet here around 80% of the time which will probably drive out UTG unless he actually has something (in which case our eqiuty drops slightly). If this causes button to drop out, we actually have an equity defecit, and lose money on our raise.

Also, raising does little for us in the way of winning when we don't improve. If we end up HU, it will be hard to get button to fold acehigh, so that shouldnt'r really be considered.

Another reason to just call is that if we hit our flulsh on the turn, we are in a great position to go for a check raise. So our implied odds actually are better if we decide just to call this flop.

So all things cnosidered, it is much better to pass up on our slight flop equity edge, and just call.



Hey Scott,

I don't think you run out AK on this board very often at all, unless your opponennt is extremely weak.

so you would call down in this spot even UI on the river?

I would never call the river UI since there are 0 hands you beat.

I meant if you were the villain with AK. sorry

SCott,

I'll play SCreech..so I can learn too.

I think he means on the Turn, AK isn't folding.
You'll have to spend another bet to make him fold the river.

That gets expensive.

hopefuly Screech will confirm or deny

Oh.

If I was villian and got check/raised on this flop in this size pot, I am going to go to showdown unless a club hits.

darn, I should not try to play Screech.


Screech: You call down with A high, after being c/r by a pfr who know you 3-bet him preflop?

On turn you'll have 8.5:1, call for overs..but it's not profitable to call both streets, surely?

Screech... I feel like I"m getting dumber.
Haven't played Limit lately.

Well this is a very safe board to get check/raised on. Basically, what it tells us is that villian either has a flush draw (number of combos depend on whether or not we hold a club), or a pp (maybe a set with 88). So we can confidently call the turn getting our 8.5:1 since we know we have at least 6 clean outs most of the time, and we are ahead a small portion of the time.

Once we get to the river, we are getting about 10:1. He will have a busted flush draw enough to make that call (only need about 5 flush combos to make the call profitable).

He doesnt have an overpair 80% of the time.

And when he does, it's more often below a Q than it is a Q or above.

We're in the cutoff. We're getting 3bet by tons of **** here by the button preflop. Most pairs, as little as A10s and maybe even another KQ. Even heads up we potentially have value. With another caller who's just adding dead money for when we improve, we have quite an edge when he does call.

If he has ace high, he generally isnt 3betting the flop. I think he's folding hte turn more often than you think. Not always. But not a negligable amount of times. And he may have less than ace high. Remember, we opened from the cutoff. Button probably has a wide 3bet range.


Another thing: against AJ off, we have a greater edge than he does when he has AQ or AK. Against a pair below Q, we are virtually even money.



Whether you call down with ace high is another issue. Once i get called on the turn, i check/fold the river unimproved. But we at least stand some chance of getting a better hand to fold.

So basically against AK, I'm just playing this to make a flush. I would not be able to fold him at anytime even if he completely blanked through the entire hand?

You have no fold equity against any better hand on the turn. If you raise the flop, it's to exploit an immediate edge. That's it. Since our edge is not that great 3-way, and since it doesn't even exist HU, I think the risk of getting 3-bet/popped on the turn far outweighs such a small reward.

I might have given villian a range that was a bit too narrow, but a lot of TAGs don't really care that you opened from cutoff. They still only 3-bet their strongest holdings and will muck hands like AJo sometimes. So discounting these weaker combinations only affects teh equity calculations slightly. Villian still has an overpair here a lot (around 70% with the new hands added), so my reasoning still applies here.



Your never getting a fold on the turn, and rarely getting him to lay down the river. I guess that's why Abbaddabba would check/fold the river. So I guess he realizes that we have no fold equity too.

wow.
I fold AK UI too much.

If I'm villan with AK, I see calling the turn, clearly.
But I fold the river.

Along with combos you also have to consider: How many players bet just a FD OOP all the way. Some Hero's c/c missed FD's with A high to catch a bluff (by villan) at the end. But we know hero has < A high.

Wonder if I'm folding to many winners.

I would call against certain opponents, but that would be the exception.

And I need to pay close attention to the board they are c/r'ing..good point.

thanks for great discussion.

Im 18/11 preflop and i 3bet AJ here every time, unless the guy opening from the cutoff is super weak/tight.




On the river, no.

On the turn, yes.