You are playing in a stud 8 ring game. A Q raises, a 7 calls, a 9 calls and you call with the 4 up and the 8 5 in the hole:

Player 1: (x-x) Q
Player 2: (x-x) 7
Player 3: (x-x) 9
Me: (8 5 ) 4

On fourth street, the boards look like this:

Player 1: (x-x) Q A
Player 2: (x-x) 7 10
Player 3: (x-x) 9 9
Me: (8 5 ) 4 2

Player number three bets out, what is your play?

I would say call...u want more players in this pot who all don't look they they will make any kind of low, so if we make our low we can split more. As we don't have any kind of high hand, raising is not a good idea. Even if we raised, the 99 is not gonna fold so we won't be able to win the pot outright.

I have never played Stud 8 in my life so I really have no idea why I'm even answering this but my gut tells me you have to raise. I won't try to explain that since I have no good reason for thinking it. Eliminating players is usually a good thing in stud games, whatever.

You call. You want the QA calling as well, and maybe two raises in front of him scares him out if his hole cards give him a marginal hand. You are ahead of 7-10 at this point - if he is working on a low - so you don't need to scare him out. As many as 16 of the remaining 36 cards give you a 9 low or better.

I am just starting to play razz and stud8, but so far, it seems pretty profitable to keep someone you -know- is behind you for a low in the hand, because a) they're behind, you, once you make your low, may be able to keep them from drawing out on you with a big bet when they take a bad upcard, if you feel it is necessary because you have a weak low, c) if you fail to make your low, you can still knock them off of theirs if yours shows better than theirs does. And, in this case, so far your low is showing better.

Among other factors...

Monty

I say raise. The guy who had the seven up, is proably going low. The ten is a total blank for him. How ever, he is drawing to a better low than you, and you want to know him out for sure. However, the AA is obviously a high hand, and he's not nessisarily going to fold because of your raise, knowing that you are obviously low. He'll be more concerned about 99. In DN's game, I'd say it's unlikely that the 99 started with a nine in the hole, since he called a raise. More likely a powerful drawing hand. pair of 9's is garbage in Stud high low. Queen wll proably be able to put dn wher he is, and have a reasonable chance to think that his hand is better than 99, so he's not going to fold. If he folds, it's really not the end of the world, 'cause a heads up pot will be easier to hog if you back door into some low two pair or trips. But mostly you raise to get the 7 10 out.

I preface this with the admission that I am a noob when it comes to stud8...

He's currently got a better low than 710 does, he is drawing to more outs only needing one to make what is likely a good low, 710 is drawing to fewer outs and needs two. He might even have A-3-7-10, leaving him with fewer outs since some of them are in your hand. Yes that leaves hero with fewer outs too, but hero doesn't need as many.

Isn't he an underdog to you? And don't you want underdogs along for the ride? Even if he draws out on you this particular time, won't you benefit over the long run with him drawing against you for the low?

You're in good shape for the low, and might swing a scoop by 7th. You want everyone along for the ride, it seems to me.

Monty

In limit poker on the early streets usually no, you don't.

Consider having Kings-up on 4th street in 7 card stud (a game I'm actually familiar with). What would you want a guy with a pair of Aces to do?

I think I'd want him chasing me for extra bets.

Monty

I say raise because you might get the original raiser to call too bets cold. Even though your only four low and only have backdoor draws its worth putting in the extra bet in because besides a 7 any card completing your low will give you some kind of draw.

A 3 give you an open-ended straight draw and an ace and 6 will give you a gut shot. You can even a high club and bet out and get the other players to fold. You could catch the three of clubs and bet out and get the other players to fold when you only have eight-high!

Throw in the fact people often chase and call down with just high hands, I believe a raise is better than a call.

I would say just call, you have some high possibility, but are really not in good shape against the open 9's for high, and therefore don't really want to play a heads up pot. also you are the only one with a 4-low, so you are not too concerned about someone drawing to a better low than yourself. So I would call and try to hit a low straight/ flush card on 5th.

Assuming the first two players have what their suppossed to have (split queens and three to a low) the real question is what we and player 1 think player 3 has. If player 3 started with split nines (usually a very bad play in multi-way stud/8 pots) then a raise would force players 1 and 2 out leaving us heads-up with someone who has at least an overpair. But if player 3 started with something like A 2 9 or 7 6 9 then we should raise since player 1 will stick around figuring he still has the best high hand while player 2 would have to fold. Then if we catch something really scary on 5th street like the 5 there's a good chance a bet will force both players out even though we still have the worst hand.

I originally answered call before reading your post. I realize that you want the T7 out, but i did not think you had enough equity in the high half to make the raise worthwhile. now that you point out that it is unlikely for the 9 to have trips (increasing your high equity), and for the other high to fold (increasing the pot odds you are getting for your low/back door high), I am reconsidering. Al l in all this is an interesting hand, and i am no longer sure of the answer.

You'd be wrong. He'll easily have the pot odds to continue and you're only a slight favorite.

I still think I'll win more bets from him than he will from me over time, if you combine the times he doesn't improve with the times that he does improve and I improve as well. He'll lose more when he makes aces up and I improve to full house, etc., then I'll lose when I don't improve and he makes aces up. Maybe I am dead wrong, I am new to stud games, like I said.

But that's a closer situation than what we have here I think. I am pretty sure 710 is a bigger dog to the 4-low to the eight than aces would be to kings up. Could someone with some more experience provide some numbers on this?

Monty

In stud 8, imo, if you have a chance to knock someone drawing to a BETTER low, then you do it. If that 8 was a say.. 3 or A or 6, you' could proably just call, hoping he did catch a back door low, and comes along for the ride. BUt then again, if you had a low that powerful, you'd proably raise also, since you have such a high pot equity verses the high hands ( ie you can make a high that beats them, but they have no shot at low). And infact, this is the very hand you want to represent, to knock ole 710 out. I personally don't think this is even a very close call. There are alot of sitiuation in stud games where you want to put pressure on hands to fold, giving yourself a better shot at the whole pot. while your high prospects aren't very good, they are there, where as 99 has no shot at low at all. To be the solo low free rolling at high is a very good spot to be in in stud, and you want to put yourself in that spot anyway you can.

One month exile over?

This is pretty tough, I'm still not sure wether to go with call, or raise. Fold is out of the question. The big question for me is whether we should raise to try and face Player 1 with two cold incase he has 3 to a better low and we could knock that out and pretty much guarantee the low. But then we are making our odds worse when we are drawing to our flush or straight by knocking out more people that could be overcalling on the next few streets. I guess i'm going to go with call. I want to see what happens on fifth before I get out some raising chips, and raise it!

i call here, there is really no other answer that i can see here than call.
i may be wrong though

how many of our are dead? If none I raise. we probably have the best low draw and we might have a scoop with the flush. Looks like everyone but seat 2 is the only one should have a low draw. I think it is a clear raise.

Plus, aggression now may buy a free card when the betting doubles. Your board looks very scary to high only hands, and another club, or another baby ( even if it pairs you) will look super scary. If you have some premium low hand, like your raise is going to represent, than single pair hands high only hands are in alot of trouble. So if you catch good on the next street ( or appear to catch good if you actually catch good, you'll be betting...) it can buy you a card. One problem in raising, however, is that you didn't raise on 3rd street, so they really can't put you on a super premium low hand to start with, like three baby clubs, or A 2 3 or something. So 10-7 may figure out what you're doing. but it doesn't treally matter if he does, 'cause the raise will give him a bad price to chace, and unless he started with like 567 suited or something he can't take a card off.

I thought BigDMcGee left...

I vote for raise, but stud is my weakest game. My thinking is that you want to knock 7 10 out if you can and then ou will be the only one with a chance at low. 99 and QA are both going high for sure, so playing against 2 competing high hands is good when going low. In addition, you have a backdoor flush draw, and can represent a flush with another club. I like an aggressive line here.

Get the Hell out...there's a good chance you're gonna end up caught in a raising war between player one and player 3, and you don't want to be calling another raise (or two raises) where you still have to hit a draw.

You play to scoop, not to split, even against two other people, especially when they're raising each other (unless you have ALREADY hit your low).

If you raise you could very well end up isolated with player 3, and still needing a draw for half the pot.

You only have 13 outs, and if the 7 is sticking around, there's a good chance he has a couple of them.

We also haven't been told what other low door cards folded to the bring-in. Also - did player 3, with a showing pair, bet a small bet or a big bet...another thing to consider, especially with the initial raiser still to act after you.

You're drawing thin, for half the pot...get out now.

NOTE: this would be different if player 1 had the lead, and bet, and you were last to act and able to close the action...in that case I probably would call if player 2 and/or 3 had called.

This is the worst post I've read all day. Granted, I've only read one post. The last thing you should do in this situation is fold.

Folding here is super-weak, and if I recall correctly, wasn't even an option when the poll went up in the first place and was added later.

Monty

Worst advice ever. You will not end up in a raising war between 1 and 3, since they know theyre competing against each other for half the pot on the high side. This hand has enough scoop potential and if you raise AQ could call two cold. Youre way ahead of all your opponents for at least half of a multiway pot. Folding is terrible. Raising charges player 2 to draw against you for a low and charges player one the maximum to beat player 3 if he does indeed have split queens.

i had K3 in the big blind today, small blind limped and I raised because he was weak.

he called, flop comes 336. he bets, i raise, he 3-bets and I cap. turn is a 5, he bets. i actually said "pinch pinch" as I raised.
sure enough, river 2 and he shows down A4.

oh well, i'm almost cool

Must have quoted the wrong post huh?

Here's my read of the hands. I'm guessing the Q up is raising with a pair, trying to isolate against low hands hoping they miss. A 7 calling out of poistion with a 4 behind them sure sounds like he's got A-2 under there and is trying to trap any other low draws out there who feel like getting frisky. The 9 calling against a Q up raiser has to be a straight draw, but I think it's more likely (given their play on 4th street) that they have a 2-flush, 2-straight pair going. I just can't imagine what other range of hands they would just call with here. After fourth street, my worst-case scenario read is like this:

Kc Qs Qc Ac
2s As 7c Tc
Ts 9h 9s 9c
8c 5s 4c 2c

I think you'll learn a few things by calling here. First off, I really don't think you have to worry about Player #2 all that much, the only thing a 10 could improve is if he actually had a middle-straight draw like 9-8-7, but considering I'm putting player 3 on trip 9s, I don't see that, I see him folding. The unfortunate part for you is that you're out of poistion here, and Player 1's play determines a lot here. If Player 1 calls or raises, you have to figure they have a big high hand already, because betting on two 9s has to be setting off some alarms.

The great thing about Stud 8 is player 3 can just as easily see that no one else has really improved much, and they might be trying to take the bull by the horns and isolate against you, the most viable low draw (killing your EV) with just a pair of 9s and 8-7 in the hole. I think this is much more likely the scenario rather than trip 9s. Assuming this is Player 1's read, he'd either be in there raising or calling. If this is the situation, with 9 small bets in front of you and the best (and scariest) low draw, I'd try to trap Player 1 for as many bets as I can get, you have the best EV in the hand so why not try and make it a big one instead of a small one. Who knows, maybe you'll hit a cash card like a 3 of clubs on 5th street and scoop it right there.

Raising only encourages Player 1 not to get stubborn with his big pair. Folding seems worthless. A lot of people seem to think this is a low-only hand, but you've got a lot of options at making a flush or low straight and the last time I checked, you're playing for both pots.

The one caveat: This is in a $1500/$3000 game with people who bet more per hand than I've got in my bank account. Depending on the type of player Player 1 is, his play might be dictated by that. He could easily toss away a big pair there, I would definitely consider it.

In short: You have EV, you've got more ways to improve than you do to lose even if everyone is killing your flush cards: Call and win a big one.

Raise. If the open nines had trips or 2 pair, he would probably go for the checkraise in this spot to try to get as much money in the pot as possible (after all, he has to expect you to bet after catching a low suited card). His most likely hand here is just a pair of nines and he is hoping that you'll raise to knock out the pair of queens. And you are a favourite against a pair of nines, so you want to raise for value.

There's nothing wrong with calling, either. That was my first instinct until I read the other posts and thought about it a bit. Folding would be absurd.

Stud 8 or better is a split pot game in which you really want to scoop the pot. Obviously, you are not folding so the question is between raising in an attempt to get the pot heads up with Players 1 and 2 or calling and giving them good odds to draw.

I think this is a very tough decision, but I lean toward raising here. Given that the 99 lead out, daniel is likely to need to make a straight his his flush to win the high. He also has a decent low draw but has to worry about player 2. The best way to ensure the best chance at scooping th epot is to raise and force the other 2 out and play the pot heads up. By calling, he will let player 2 in, who can conterfeit his low and if he doesn't make his high draw he is left with 0. If player;s 1 and 2 drop, he is a string mathematical favorite for at least half the pot after 7th street.

I'm sure someone has said this already, but I say raise to force out the 7 draw, and then you are on a free roll to catch some sort of flush or straight to scoop, w/ half guaranteed. Otherwise you face the serious threat of losing the whole pot if the 7 sticks around.



Very good analysis of player 3's motivation. I didn't even think of that. I agree, raise, and put player 1 to the test (not that it matters - you basically have a lock on the low as long as player 2 folds).

We were never provided the suits of the other cards, which leads me to believe it is a call rather than a raise. However, if we catch a low on the next card, we are betting/raising until the cows come home IMO.

What I'm about to say assumes your low draw is still pretty live, since I don't know what other cards are gone.

The first thing to realise is that your chances to scoop the pot with your weak low draw are pretty small. Player 3 probably has three nines or two pair, and Player 1 almost certainly has a pair of queens. So you do whatever you have to do to keep in both high hands while eliminating your opposition for low.

Its a tough decision between calling and raising. If you call, you make it quite cheap for Player 2 to take off another card to his probable low draw, unless Player 1 raises which I think is unlikely. If you raise, you run the risk of eliminating Player 1 and Player 2, leaving you heads up with a high hand with almost zero scoop chances. You might even have to fold on fifth street if you catch a brick, depending on how big the pot is.

If this were a typical online game I would raise, because I know that online, players 1 and 2 are likely to call even two bets in this situation, and I want to get as much money into the pot as possible. I highly doubt there are excellent players in the hand because first of all a queen is raising in a multiway pot, and a nine is calling!

I skipped all the replys because I don't care what others think. Here you just call. Player two should fold to one bet because he bricked on 4th so you would be drawing to a low with no other lows to fight with and hopefully two highs. If you catch a low you can try to jam as long as you can keep both players in.

Some reasons why you would raise are if player two is a donk you might want to raise since he is the only one that looks to be going low and if you think both highs will stay in. Your hand is pretty much a one way hand at this point and its' still a draw so thats why I think calling is the best...although knowing you...you raised. I don't think raising is all that bad either especially if the game is one where people are raising a ton on 4th.

Now I'm going to read what the others said.

Edit....this wasnt asked but the 8 low starter should have been folded to the raise in the first place since the guy with a 7 called before you. You have an 8 low draw (second best at this point) and no high draw really. If this situation is played 100 times you lose a lot of money playing this dog hand.

I definitely think a call is in order. You are a big favorite over the only other supposed low draw and you want him to continue putting money in as a dog. When you have a primarily one-way hand such as this you appreciate the extra money put in by worse hands. Calling does not add any deception to your hand as to any good stud player once you call a bet by open nines your hand is pretty much an open book. Contrary to what everyone else says, this hand does have some high potential with a 3-flush and 3-straight and apparently live cards (3s and 6s).

With regards to calling a raise with 4-5-8 (3rd st.), it is not that out of line. If you play perfectly after 4th and can realize the danger of catching bad, you aren't really giving that much up. You have a 2 flush and a 3 straight. Plus, the seven that called doesnt have to have 3 pieces to a seven low. Probably does, but not 100%.

My two cents.....

Easy call but not a raise.

1. I don't see others' low potentials. And there aren't many low cards out there on 3rd and 4th street giving hero a good shot.
2. I call to give everyone else the odds to chase for the high so I can get a juicy low.
3. Hero's hand still has scoopability.

All in all, give yourself the odds to chase by keeping others in. This is not a hand you want to reduce players in the pot.

This goes against my signature thou.

I really wish we could see the suits of the other players cards. I want to know how many of my clubs are out there, and if anyone is still hunting for a flush as well. I like the opporunity of a scoop, so if not many clubs are out, but Player 1 or 2 are drawing to a flush, I like the raise to try to price them out of drawing to their flushes and maybe lows.... If noone else looks like they are on the flush draw, and I am down a couple of clubs, I think I'd prefer the call.

Ray

Automatic raise. You are 4 to a made low with backdoor str8 and flush opportunities. If you let the guy with the 7 stay in he can easily make a better low than you, just because he hit a brick on 4th doesnt mean he will hit another on 5th and you have to make him pay. If you catch any 1of 16 cards on 5th you will be freerolling when the big bets are being put in, if you hit a dream card on 5th you may have a huge freeroll with str8 draws. I spent quite a bit of time with Kirk in Australi in January and sweated you both for a long while in the tag team event - look forward to hooking up with him again in July/august in Vegas when a few of us are coming over for a month or so of the series (basketball challenge kirk??).

Tough question, Daniel. My instincts are to call and see what develops. Does your knowledge of your opponents come into play here? Did you consider reraising on 3rd street?

Perhaps - personally, I think the worst advice ever was when the Decca executive told Elvis "go back to driving a truck because you're never gonna be a singer"...or when another Decca executive told The Beatles "guitar groups are on the way out."

Luckily I don't work for Decca.

Player 1, if you call, may indeed raise, with the express purpose of getting you (or at least player 2) out of the pot...and player 3 may also reraise for the same reason...they'd rather fight each other for a full pot than fight each other AND you for half a pot. They want you out.

Remember, no 8 or better hand, no hi/lo split.

Calling is the worst option here.

If you raise (my second choice) this may reduce the chances of player 1 and 3 coming back at you...the extra bet helps ensure you're not having to call two extra bets (unless you're against AAQQ and 999). The problem is, a raise may chase player 1 and 2, leaving you playing against player 3 for half the pot, and you haven't hit your hand yet.

If you raise and player 1 and 3 call...great. And if you roll a K or an 8 on 5th street and player 3 leads out again, now what?

Regardless, I'd still like more information...

1. you don't know how many people started the hand and what their door cards were
2. you don't know if player 3's bet is a small bet or a big bet OR does this rule only apply to 7-card stud? I thought it also applied to hi-lo
3. I'm also willing to bet that Player 2 has two of your low outs.


You're playing to draw to half the pot, and give what ever weight you want to the two backdoor draws you have - a call may become expensive, and a raise may isolate you...you want neither.

Like I said, if you're last to act here it's different...2nd to act, after a bet, with the original raiser behind you, I still like a fold, regardless of the answer.

And, that may be why I'm not a millionnaire from stud/8 or better.

i would raise. i dont play stud8 very much and havent read anything on it but if i have a good low hand i start to stuff the pot and hope to scoop with a flush or a straight and also make the others pay for there draws

I just call here. You are likely to wind up with half the pot, so therefore want as many people contributing as possible. You don't want to get it heads up with the nines. Better to let them in to chase the high. If the T7 calls even one bet here with a low draw only, he is making a big mistake, so I say let him. He will probably muck anyway unless he has at least a buried pair bigger than 9s.

I can't believe 6 people voted for fold. Call on 3rd, catch almost perfect and give up? These people need to stick to holdem. I can understand raising, but folding would never cross my mind.

I assume you meant to quote the post after mine, since you agree with my opinion.

i would raise representing 4 to a flush and a low draw. this will give you a chance to to scoop the pot if the a club falls on a later street.

Did I misread the question? This is not Hi/Lo is it?


Anyway... I would raise.

[quote name='DanielNegreanu' date='Friday, April 14th, 2006, 10:06 AM' post='992745']
You are playing in a stud 8 ring game.

Why are so many of the "call" proponents assuming that if you raise, players 1 and 2 will fold, and if you call, players 1 and 2 will call? This is a pretty bad assumption, and it seems many of their arguments are based upon it.


edited to say:
maybe if you raise, suckers 1 and 2 will call... and maybe if you call, suckers 1 and 2 will fold

First off Daniel, there is not enough info in regards to suits etc for me to make a total educated opinion, but just by what you gave us, my reasoning is as follows.

First on third street Q raised, probably with at least Q's. I figure him right now to only have 2 low cards max at this point. 7 probably has 2 other low cards and there is an outside chance he might raise. The 9's are likely to hold either a set or 2 pair at current so unless the 7 10 or QA raises, you can save a little money on this street. Also your hand right now you only have a 3 flush and a weak low with an 8 low. The fact tht 7 caught a brick on 4th is good for your hand but you will want to proceed with caution. I really would like to know the 5th street cards in this one to proceed further. If 7 catches any low card other than 8 that does not pair him, figure him on a better low draw.

Raising is only going to open the door for a reraise and maybe even a cap if QA likes his hand or has A's hidden or even if he catches 2 pair.

Now I will say this....if 7 didnt catch a 10 and for instance caught a 6 or 5...i would consider folding. But I would have to know the player better holding the 7.

I'm not going to read all the replies, but I think the best move is to raise here. We're probably not up against trip nines, since I don't see an elite player calling a raise from a queen with just split nines in a Stud 8 game. We're probably up against split queens and nines with a three-flush.

Also, if we raise everyone's going to assume that in addition to a low draw, we probably have a four-flush, since that's the hand we'd likely value-raise in that spot. That way, if we do hit another club we can bluff out the players going for high who might think their one pair is drawing dead.

Finally, if we're looking to get action from the queens, I don't see this making much of a difference. They'll know that we're drawing regardless, and they'll make their decision on whether or not to call based on whether they think the player with the nine really has trips or not.