limp with 5d6d. 3 other limpers (sb, bb, 3rd position)

flop comes 3d 4d 5c sb checks, bb pushes, 3rd position folds...what do you do?


about 7 mins into the tourney, 10/20 blinds and I have 1740 chips (start with 1500).

personally i fold here, it's just not worth it at this stage, especially with this field that I know I could kill if I just pick my spots.

Unfortunately, I was in the shower and a buddy was playing for me and he pushed as well...other guy had Ac2s. and no help came.

I don't feel it's a bad play, it's a great drawing hand, but I personally put the guy who pushes with an overpair and would've laid it down.

What would y'all do?

shawn...

I take it BB had more chips than you?


If I was first to act, I'd probably do the pushing.
I'd probably call here.
You're at least 50/50. and there is some overlay.
Personal prefernce.
In a big buy-in, I"d be more timid and wait for a bigger edge.
That's not sound strategy, it's just my utility curve.

He pushed 1500 (or so) chips into an 80 chip pot?? Unless you flopped the hands down nuts (or have a read that this guy is insane) you fold.

Easy fold considering the size of the pot compared to the huge bet. Not worth the risk to try to catch your straight when he could already have it, or have 2 higher diamonds or any pair higher than sixes.

meh, i call and expect slightly positive expected value

You're a favorite over most--if not all--overpairs(7 7x, may be the exception). But, In a pot that small, that early in the tournament, not necessarily worth it.

Putting him on an overpair?

Lets look at a little stat here...


Flop- 3d4d6h

5d6d- Win 64.65%

ThTc- Win 33.54%



It might not be a lock, but folding cause you think he's on an overpair might not be the best idea.

In a $10 tourney I call this every time.

Easiest call ever.

However, I'de rather be the one doing the pushing in this hand.

but villan can't have:

An over pair and A Straight and a Flush Draw higher than ours.
We can't fear all three from one player!

We are a favorite.
It's an easy call in a cash game.
How do we fair vs a set here?

it's just that in a tourney, maybe some prefer to not gamble early.

don't get me wrong..i know against an overpair we're favorite to win, i just don't like putting my money in with the worst hand....

but i totally agree with the call as well..

either play is fine with me..just trying to get some information on how other ppl feel about the play...

Daniel talked about this situation in a blog before.
Your a slight underdog vs top set.
and you were 55-45 vs a2 in your hand.

most players try to get a lot of chips early on, because its easier to make a ft that way.
?????????
easy.

I didn't bother reading your post because I'd play this hand on the strategy forum.

i would call simply because you have a !!massive!! drawing hand top pair, and because its only for 10 bucks. in tourneys inder 20 bucks i just try to build a massive stack early on and take some risks to do so, if i lose what the hell, and if i do good then its all good

you don't take this oppourtunity because you can crush them later? so right now you have an oppourtunity where you KNOW you're a favorite to win, and you're waiting for.. yourself to flop the nuts or something?

i personally wouldn't call there b/c i've got basically nothing invested in the pot. That's just my personal opinion on the hand though.

And I don't play tournies different based on buy in value. I play the same no matter what...if you're playing in a tourney different b/c of the value of the tourney, then you probably shouldn't be playing in that tournament to begin with.

shawn...

what you already invested is completely irrelevant, except to the extent it's part of the pot you may want to fight for.

No he cannot have three hands. So?



In what way are you a favorite? Villain had a straight.




This isn't a cash game.



Not particularly well.



I guess, but if I'm gonna take a big gamble like that early I want it to be for a massive pot.


Didn't anybody ever teach you guys 'Don't go broke on an unraised pot?'

Against exactly Ac2s, we are a 55% favorite after the flop.

Against a set, we are a 47-53 dog.

Against an over pair we are a 65% favorite.

Against a higher flush draw, we are a 63% favorite.

Our worst case scenario, is Ad2d, and that means we are behind 28-72.

Similarly, against a made nut straight, 67, we are 40% to win.


Also, this is a pretty massive pot, there's now roughly 1800 chips in this pot that we have a chance to win. It's no longer just a pot of T80 or whatever the blinds were.

Anyways, just some odds.

- Zach

eassssssssssssssssssssssssy call

There's not much invested in the pot when you're BB and it folds to SB who goes all-in and you look down at AA, do you fold there too because you don't have much invested in the pot?

Nice. I do AA is rigged.

You didn't mention a set (the most likely holding IMO for this situation) to which you're trailing slightly.

It's there.

I'm blind.


The problem is that you are getting barely over 1 to 1 odds.

you have to get chips at some point...I am a go big or go home guy though so that might be the difference

The most likely holding a set? Have you ever played a small buy-in gigantic MTT on PokerStars during the early levels?

Villain has 10 6 offsuit here 95% of the time.

Yeah I play them plenty. Maybe you should call, since there are a lot of maniacs in those, but players will also just blindly push with a made hand, when a smaller bet would have been a much better play, especially when THEY are trying to double up early, and for some reason think that their ridiculous bet will be called.


edit: My post = run-on sentence

He could easily turn over AK

With the insanely massive overbet in a 10$ tourny, id say theres a 25-30% chance hes bluffing the crap out of it. Another 15-20% of the time hes on a flush draw, to which we are still a favorite given the state of our pair and straight draw. And maybe like a 5% chance he hit a set (how many players raise all in on an 80$ pot with a set? they slow play the **** outta it)

The call is completely justified and probably the correct move. However, one could make the arguement (a conservative one, and also potentially correct depending on the playing style) that folding here allows you to pick a better spot later, and since the blinds are still very low compared to the starting stacks, it is a defendable move.

Personally, I call. But my style is not one to sit back early, I want chips so that I can intimidate the table with the knowledge that I have the power to felt them without risking my entire stack.

Tourney strat.

Easy fold, you missed your draws.

Uh... he missed his draws on the flop? This was a flop decision Bizzle... did you misread that, or am I misinterpreting you?

No, he missed his draws on both the turn and the river. He should obviously fold here, since if he calls he will lose all his chips.

hindsight is 20/20, its not an obvious fold at all. Thats like saying folding AA preflop against an all in 73 is a good decision cause you should know theyre gonna get cracked.

Exactly. Hindsight is 20/20. If he asked during the hand what he should do, then my answer might be different. But he asked after the fact, and he told us what the results were. In this circumstance, it becomes and easy fold. Remember, the right play is the one that wins, unless it loses.

Hahaha...nice work Bizzle.

My bad

Bizzle is smooth!

I can honestly say my answer was not biased.
I go broke all the time with huge draws.
Usually pushing


Tim,

I know this is not a cash game.
I was simply saying it's +EV in terms of chips; but the argument to fold relates to the Tourney equity.
Copernicus tells me early on Chip Count correlates to Tourney Equity about 1:1, so in that case dbl up is nice.


and we were a favorite against his likely range, imo.
Saying we aren't a favorite because he had a straight is below you. You know results are not relevant in these discussions.

I admit that the longer I think about it the more I agree it is a call. Factoring in that it is a $10 game and so your opponent could easily just be a maniac, I would call there.

I also admit that I didn't realize 56d was a favorite to A2.

Regarding results, yes this is true, but I think you have to put your opponent on at least a 15% chance of having a made straight there. Also I was saying that it looked more likely that you were facing trips.

People are seeming to forget: Why would this guy push all in w/ a made hand? Wouldn't he want to get paid off for his hand?

Let's say that this is the case. Then the hands he could have here are drawing hands, which we're ahead of. I'd say he has AdXd.... or perhaps a higher straight draw. If that's true, our diamond draw is good.


I would probably call here, then again, i probably would have raised w/ your hand preflop.

^ ^

Easy call.

This early in the tourney, when people play like real idiots, I don't think I could bring myself to fold.

I'm not one to risk all my chips early in a tournament on a coin flip. I'd much rather build my chip stack up gradually and and only play big pots when I feel I have a huge advantage. Then when you have a bigger stack you can start to push these small advantages.

That being said most times you are a bit better than a coin flip in this situation. With more players involved this is an easy call. As it is it's a boarderline call. I can fold this knowing that I can get my money in better spots later. I can call because straight flushes are so damn sexy and just need to hit one every now and then.

Cash game is an easy call. Early in a tournament not so much.

To the people saying "let's not risk chips this early in the tourney":

Does a strong player make the kind of play the villain did, or does a weak one?

If the answer is "a weak one," then is it more or less likely that the villain will still be around later on for you to push a bigger edge against him?

I think it's worth thinking about what kind of player you're up against when you have an edge and you think you might get a better edge later. There could be a good chance that the villain won't be around later for you to exploit because someone else will have already done it. In which case you have to ask yourself - will it be easier for me to find a better edge against a better opponent later on, or will it be easier to take a risk now with the edge I have against one who isn't as good?

There have been many times that I've waited for a better spot against a donk, only to see his chips go to a much stronger player before that "better spot" came along.

probable 17 outer? I cant see laying it down even though you know youre behind. ID hope for the straight and not the flush though.