The title says it all...Say what you think and why you think?

Are we saved by works or by grace?

Baptism seems like its in the area of works to me.

Its a great question. what do you think? What verses support your idea? I am tryin not to interject with what I think yet to let a variety get on there...I want to see where everybody is coming from.

Romans 10:9 says confess with your mouth and believe in your heart.

I see baptism as a step of submission. Admitting that you'd like to wash away the old you and become a clean being. It's a step of faith.

I don't see in Scripture where it is required...but Jesus felt the need to be baptized and He lived a sinless life. So, if He felt the need to do it, then I think it's important for all of us to do.

I do know of a lady who is deathly afraid of water. She confessed with her mouth and believes in her heart, so I don't think she should have to get submirsed and have some type of a panic attack.

Just my thoughts.

I think it comes down to whether you believe that "what the Church on Earth holds, so it is held in heaven".

If your Church says you need to get baptized, get baptized. If not, don't.

But shouldnt yoru Church be based on the bible? Some do think baptism is necessary, some dont. Which is right?

Let me clarify. I am not asking if you should or shouldnt be baptized. I am asking biblically for reasons to believe we must or dont have to get baptized for salvation

I'm not familiar enough with the Bible to quote you specifics either way.

But between there being 1,000 interpretations out there and the specifics on the existence of the Bible, I tend to lean toward the Bible, while the most significant, not being the only source of religious/Christian truth.

In fact, I think parts of the Bible sort of infer that it is not the sole source.

Anyway, I've digressed back to my first point...it's what you believe.

Baptism is a sign before people that you have accepted Christ as your savior, but it in and of itself does not save you.

There are two forms of baptism mentioned in the Bible, which is the why some Christians do not believe in water baptism. Quakers, for example, believe that one is babtized by the Holy Spirit. Here is one of the quotes from the Bible: ""He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire." (Matt 3:11)"

If you are interested in reading more about this here is a link: http://www.quakerinfo.com/forum/viewtopic....ghlight=baptism

I agree with this one



I have actually done quite a bit of research into this b/c it is such a controversial topic. I have found that those who believe in baptism reallly rely on 3 verses to make thier case.

So I guess we should baptise babies by fire, gee that will be a fun church outing.

Although I love you Donkslayer, this advice is terrible. Why? Because the Bible says that we should follow Christ's example and be baptised. It most certainly does NOT say that baptism is required for salvation. But we should make a public display of the change that has happened in our life.

im not baptised and im a Christian.
my parents felt that i should make that choice and i thank them for that.

its not like you need to do it but it is a good way to show your faith to God.
that said i havent been baptised

Great post

Speaking as one who has been baptized... I see it a seal of the covenant that we hold with God. God has communicated his love for us in the sacraments of the Word, prayer, and baptism. In this act of baptism, God's love and grace is conveyed to us, as his children. It is a visible demonstration of the inward love and devotion that we have for God and a confirmation for the believer that God affirms his love for us. To me, baptism is an important decision in the Christian life, however it is not a necessary means to salvation. Baptism cannot be a means to salvation, because then we would be adding our own works to the already perfected work that Christ performed on the cross and according the Bible we cannot save ourselves:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do " (Eph. 2:8,9).

Check out Ephesians 1:13 and you will see that Paul mentions something else is the "seal" that you speak of.

Is circumcision necessary for salvation?


If baptism is.

" Unless a man is born again of the water and of the spirit he CANNOT enter the kingdom of God. "

It's actually quite clear. The easiest thing to say is show me a sinners prayer in the bible, and a little trivia for you- who can find the scripture that talks about whether or not God hears the prayer of a sinner?

You will find that he doesn't- so, the question is what can we do, what kind of spiritual operation was put into place to take the label of sinners off of us and put us into a position where God does hear our prayers?

If you just read your Bibles you will find that it's baptism. The blood of Jesus, figuratively, saves you- in order to get to it you need to be baptized into the body of Christ, and the bible says as much.

Mainstream christianity will do everything they can to play bullfighter with a rug and try to divert you away from this, twisting the scriptures, retranslating from the greek to atempt to mask the truth, and just plain lies as well- but, the bible speaks for itself, and until you can find a scripture that says that baptism is merely an outward sign of an inward dedication, or a scripture where a disciple says" Say a sinners prayer" instead of " Hey, why don't you get baptized?- I will continue to follow truth and basic reading skills.

This is so easy it makes me wonder how in the world anyone could actually do extensive study on the subject and still get it wrong. Thats amazing. It's akin to having a hard time making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

Lois....Who is Jesus talkin to in John 3:5 (the verse you quoted) and why did you not bother to post the rest of what goes on in that verse, mainly the part where Jesus says these are things that the Pharisee should have known. Now this leads to a question that so far no baptism saves person has been able to answer.

At no time has a water baptism brought about salvation. Even when John the Baptist was baptizing, it was merely for repentance. So how could Jesus expect a Jewish Pharisee to understand that Jesus was saying that being baptized in Jesus's name would now save you? Its a matter of putting the cart before the horse Lois. You are tryin to apply something that came after Jesus's death to something that was said before His death and I am sorry but it wont work

So in your opinion, it is works and not faith that ultimately saves Christians, correct? This isn't criticism, btw, I'm actually asking for clarification.

he will say something to that effect and he will base it off of James 2 which seems to be in direct contradiction to Romans if you want to believe James wrote it that way.

Is salvation absolute Lois? Or can it be changed from person to person? Is God's truth absolute? Or can it be changed?

God grants salvation to all who obey him- that doesn't stop until the day you die. Salvation starts at baptism and then goes from there.

Can Gods truth be changed? No. Can it be spun? Yes, but he doesn't like it. Do you realize that the last thing he does before finishing the bible is threaten those that would tamper with it? Read the last few verses in Revelations.

Since Christ died on the cross certain steps need to be taken to obtain salvation- you can call them works if you want but regardless without them you will not escape hell. Now, Matt will tell you that if you don't do works well then that means you were never saved anyway- so, works are neccesary but not really.

It' a razor thin line these guys walk and ultimately it comes down to yes, you need works to be a true follower of Christ.

I forget the scripture and who said it, but I think it was Paul who said," Show me thy faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works. " Baptism is the first work- Peter laid it out very clearly in Acts 2:38- Repent, and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and ye shall receive the holy ghost.


I am saying that the one validates the other, and each is equally important. Really, though, what is faith exactly? Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. I did not see Christ die on the cross but I believe it- I did not witness his miracles but I believe it. That, in and of itself, gets me nothing. The devils believe, and they fear him, what good will it do them? Again, to tired to remember the scripture, you can look it up, but here is a direct commanment for works- " Go out unto all the world and preach the gospel. He the believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not is damned." Thats a major work, but there are other commandments as well, to meet on the first day of the week, to confess your faults one to another, to honor your wife or husband- all of these are works that a christian must do, and they are just a few. Look, becoming Christlike- which is the goal of a christian- is a work that will not end until death, a constant evaluation and changing of oneself to be something better. It's why he says that few will be saved, because the way is narrow.

If baptism is so unimportant why constantly talk of it and command it, and if the answer is that it's some sort of public display, great-- where does it say that? Nowhere, so in my mind it's easy to just discount that line of thinking altogether, because quite simply biblically it does not exist.

This is a more profound question than I initially gave it credit for- thank you for asking it. Salvation would most definitely change from person to person in that a christian life is about effort and only you and God know what is really goiing on- for example, maybe my battle is I have a hard time with my anger- I work at it and work at it and sometimes I fail but I am always trying, I am always looking to find ways to not give in to my temper. Maybe your battle is with your mind, you have a hard time with letting your mind think impure thoughts about women you shouldn't be. Each of us have are own battles and weaknesses and lots of times it is between you and God, and all he wants is effort- the key is since he knows you than he knows whether or not your effort is truly your best. The overall goal as a christian is to be taking steps to be like Christ.

and what verses are there that say that God will take away your salvation?

Matt, when referring to the "seal" in my post... I should further clarify...


That baptism is a covenant sign, a representation that Christ is completing a "circumcision" of our hearts according to Rom 2:29, and Col. 2:11-12. It comes after faith which is a gift of God (Rom. 12:3) and the work of God (John 6:28).

The scripture your thinkin of is James 2. Which is what I said you would point to earlier. In James 2, it is not James who says that but an "imaginary objector" that James uses to make an argument.

Paul says this:

Romans 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness...


Acts 2:38 is not a good example mainly because in Acts 10:44-47, Peter lays out a different order for the gentiles. So what does this mean? Either the bible is messed up in the order, or there is something special about those in Acts 2:38. Alas when we look at Acts 2, we realize that there is something special about that group and so it make sense. Acts 2 is a very bad example to use.

If Gods truth CAN NOT be changed or altered like you suggest, then how could the robber on the cross be saved? Wasn't he nailed to the cross? If he wasn't baptised and therefore sin was still in his life.. how could God let sin into heaven?






No one on this board, and by no one I mean at least Matt and I, thinks that baptism is unimportant. Obeying God's commands is always very important. The question is... does salvation come from a free gift of God's grace or from our own works... this is where our paths diverge.







This post makes me fear for your salvation.

Jesus had the power to grant him entrance into paradise. The old law was still in effect, Jesus not being dead and all that. Next reason?

As far as Matt goes, I can't deal with you dude, you don't even use an accurate bible. Continually, I point this out. It would be like if I tried to play basketball with a football- I just wouldn't be all that prepared, and things wouldn't quite fit or make sense.


I love the what about the robber on the cross reason. Thats like the one guy who wins a jackpot at a casino- hes just one dude, not all.

I believe many theologians and most churches recognize baptism by desire as equally valid as compared to an actual baptismal ceremony.

Monty

I totally understand what you're saying... which is why it's so important that God is absolute and can NOT make exceptions. We were NOT under the law anymore, and Jesus preached this his entire time on Earth.

Matthew 5:
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

John 1:
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.




If you understand that baptism is a covenant sign, then you can see that it is a representation of the reality of Christ circumcising our hearts (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11-12). It is our outward proclamation of the inward spiritual blessing of regeneration. It comes after faith which is a gift of God (Rom. 12:3) and the work of God (John 6:28). The Bible says that it is the gospel that saves. "By this gospel you are saved..." (1 Cor. 15:2). Also, Rom. 1:16 says, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."

Masters Thesis about why Baptism is Not Necessary For Salvation

I use the most accurate bible available..what about you? you stick to a version whose language comes from the 1600s. Do you realize that the words dont mean the same. I guarantee you will not find anybody of any worth who says the NASB is not extremely if not the most accurate translation ever. nice try Lois though.

Lois again i see that you seem to have good intentions with the bible but that you dont know very much about the history of the bible. You read the bible and think you understand it. You dont go the the context of the world it was written into understand it. In your ignorance you dismiss the truth.



Where are the verses that says this was some random experience?

What about the gentiles in Acts 10:44-47? They had believed and received the Holy spirit well before any sort of baptism. They were already "sealed" before their baptism. So now we have 2 examples of salvation without baptism

Then we have all of Pauls Letters that make no mention of baptism being important.

Hmm Theres a bunch more exampels

So no Lois it isnt one random event. It is a multitude of events that signal baptism isnt necessary

My personal opinion, not dogma or the opinion of any church that I can think of...

Baptism is a euphemism for desire to live a life free from sin.

No water is necessary.

No ceremony is necessary.

No priest or minister is necessary.

No church is necessary.

Being a Christian is not necessary (I'll complement this statement by adding that I am a Christian)

Take a Buddhist living in China in 1000 A.D. or a Hindu living in India at the same time.

They have practically 0% chance of ever being "baptised" in any sense of the word.

What plan of God's would discard half of the world's population as not fit for baptism?

Many of these people were baptised, in fact most of them, imho, just not in the way we think of as constituting baptism.

Monty

I hate to be the one that tells you this... but while you may be a 'Christian' in the religious sense... you can't possibly understand the gospel even a little if you say this statement. I'm not ripping on you... I totally understand where you're coming from, but according to the Bible... you are in serious jeopardy.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.




It's funny, because I figured that you used NIV and that Lois was right... but the New American Standard was, in fact, written to make sure that there was an updated literal translation...

From Wikipedia:

The New American Standard Bible is widely regarded as the most literally translated of 20th-century English Bible translations. According to the NASB's preface, the translators had a "Fourfold Aim" in this work:

1. These publications shall be true to the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.
2. They shall be grammatically correct.
3. They shall be understandable.
4. They shall give the Lord Jesus Christ His proper place, the place which the Word gives Him; therefore, no work will ever be personalized.

Seeing the need for a literal, modern translation of the English Bible, the translators sought to produce a comtemporary English Bible while maintaining a word-for-word translation style. In cases where word-for-word literalness was determined to be unacceptable for modern readers, changes were made in the direction of more current idioms. In such instances, the more literal renderings were indicated in footnotes.

The greatest perceived strength of the NASB is its reliability and fidelity to the original languages without theological interpretation. Its corresponding weakness is that its readability and literary style sometimes prove confusing to the average reader. In addition, its printing of verses as individual units instead of paragraphs makes the text appear fragmented (though more recent editions are available in paragraph format).

(Maybe this is the problem)

Lois, Again, I would like to repeat, that I believe baptism is a command of God and every believer should obey and follow Jesus' example in getting baptized. Salvation through baptism or speaking in tongues, as a friend of mine believes, or circumcision or any other works based idea that people want to add to the gospel message of Christ is where we differ.

You can assume facts not in evidence, if you wish, but it's not going to do you much good.

Let's start with John 14, same passage you quoted from:

John 14:2 "In my Father's house there are many dwelling places." I read this pretty broadly, I know you don't.

Jesus goes on to say, "I am the way..." as you quoted, as a direct response to Thomas, not as a general statement to all of humanity. His statement could be interpreted as you do. Or it could simply be an admonition to his Disciples to avoid false prophets they come across.

John 14:21 "They who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me; and those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them."

This is blatantly clear. Jesus uses a what is called a conditional.

Have My Commandments And Keep Them ----> Love Jesus
Love Jesus ----> Loved by God and Jesus

There is no stipulation made, no prior conditional, that receipt of Jesus' commandments must be from Jesus or from Christians.

1 Peter 4:16 "Therefore, let those suffering in accordance with God's will entrust themselves to a faithful Creator, while continuing to do good."

Again, another broad encouragement to all people, not just those that have received the Gospel.

John 15:12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."

Does Jesus mean for this just to apply to "Christians?"

The word "Christian" did not even exist when Jesus said this.

John 17:20 "I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me though their word, that they may all be one."

Does Jesus play semantics? Or by this statement does he mean that anyone that proclaims the good word, in the sense that God has been on the Earth and is a part of our lives, is part of the "one" he speaks of?

We can go back and forth for a few weeks here I imagine.

But, your statement that I "can't possibly understand the gospel even a little if you say this statement." Is horribly close-minded.

And when you say this: "but according to the Bible... you are in serious jeopardy."

All I have to say is:

Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

I do not presume to be without sin, and neither should you.

Be glad to talk with you at length about this, but don't presume I don't know what I am talking about and don't throw stones at me.

Monty

Monty i think you are confusing 2 different concepts.

Yes we are all called to follow Gods Laws. Thats not in question. That being said:

Believing in Jesus is a must if you want salvation. If you dont then you must face judgment on your own with your sins showing. And I am sorry but no many is righteous and no man can pass judgment on his own. Its a very simple concept that the bible backs up.



While this may be a problem for some. It isnt a problem I am having. Why? simple...if i dont understand the meaning of a word or how a word is used..i simply go back to the greek to see what it said exactly. I dont try to guess. Lois relies on a book whose language is out of date to try and understand the bible. I think I have shown and you can agree that the NASB is the most accurate translation available at this time. It is the closest to the greek that any english bible can get.

There are interpretations of the Bible that disagree with this, denying that they exist does not make them go away.

But...

Let's say this is absolute truth for a moment.

Where does that leave untold millions of men and women, created in God's image, living in times and in places where the Gospel would not reach them?

Give me some rationale or explanation for this, or say that you have no rationale and explanation for this and it is simply God's will.

Monty

what interpretations? I have yet to see any bible that says that you can reach salvation without being either righteous or through Christ alone. If you have any verses please share them

Now for your other question.

Yes millions have died without the possibility of salvation. But so what? The bible makes it clear that the "gates are narrow". What the bible also says is that all who seek God will see Him. (somebody can provide the verse for this). But the point is pretty simple. If you seek the Lord you will not be disappointed. There are plenty of examples of remote tribes who started to ask quesitons only to have missionaries show up.

As for others. Its a case by case situation. Some are to "proud" or "wise" to actually seek the Lord. But those who do arent going to be disappointed. I dont know if this will be enough for you but let me know. What I always find ironic is that those people who you ask quesitons about are also the very people who never actually desired to know.

We have such divergent views on God that further discussion is pointless.

I'm not sure if you really believe such drivel, or if you are simply .... *sigh*

What would Jesus say if you said the above quote to him?

Monty

What would He say? What woudl u like him to say? He died 2000 years ago and people refuse to believe in Him. They refuse to follow Him. He came to save them and they crucified Him. So what would He say? Probably something along the lines of:

"I loved you and you denied Me. I wanted to save you but you crucified Me"

Monty...what are you doing to spread the gospel to the lost? What are you doing to help those who will die without knowin Jesus. The fact is that for 2000 years the Gospels have been around and people have turned away. Whose fault is that? Is that God's fault that man turned its back on Him? I dont think so

You have failed to respond to my query. I asked you what Jesus might say when faced with your vitriolic statement from a prior post. What would he say?

Monty

R.C. Sproul says, "We ask about being fair. I don't think God owes it to anyone who doesn't want Christ to give them the desire to want what they need. He doesn't owe that to anybody. The problem is that if God does it for some, why doesn't He do it for all? I can only say to you that I have no idea why He doesn't do it for all. But this I do know and ask you to think about carefully: Just because He does it for some in no way requires that He do it for everybody else--because grace is never required. God always reserves this prerogative 'I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy.' It's not up to us to direct God's mercy." (R.C. Sproul in Now, That's a Good Question, © 1996 Tyndale). Emphasis added.

What actually happens to those who have not heard the gospel of Christ depends upon several factors.

1. It depends first of all (but not finally) on how they have responded to God's general revelation. In the case of those who have neglected or rejected such general revelation (no doubt the case with the vast majority of those who have never heard of Christ), they're lost, condemned for all eternity to a real hell. But note--they are not condemned for what they haven't heard. They are judged for what they have heard and rejected. In this sense, as R.C. Sproul rightly states, "there are no innocent people in the world."

2. In the case, however, of the one who has never heard of Christ, yet sincerely worships God as he knows Him, and lives consistently with moral law as he understands it, we do have some grounds (Acts 10 et al) to believe that God may be pleased to grant a further special revelation involving the Gospel of Christ Himself, which one would then, in turn, either accept or reject. Exactly how or when would God arrange for such a further revelation? Might I Peter 3:18-20 or 4:6 somehow correlate with Romans 2:16 here? The Scripture allows many such details to remain hidden, while being unequivocal about the fact that God will judge with perfect justice (Psalm 98:9). (Could this be what is happening on a widespread basis in the Muslim world today?)

Does all this detail somehow seem trivial to you? Be certain that it is not! In fact, this subject in all of its related subtlety is absolutely critical. Among other things, for instance, correct Biblical exegesis on this subject provides an unequaled incentive for the continued Christian mission of proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth. As Romans 10:14 says,

"How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?"

You have still not responded to my query.

Monty

I believe Jesus made it clear:

John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."


so what would He tell me? Well I sit here speaking His words. Can He be mad at me for speaking His words? No

I have already pointed out that you are taking that quote out of context, and that Jesus is speaking specifically to Thomas, not to humanity in general.

Additionally, I find the above bible verse and:



That statement to be of quite different degree.

One says, I am the only way to God, the other says millions have died without the possibility of salvation, but so what?

Those are not the same statements.

Monty

I know you already know this... but clearly Matt was saying, "so what?" to you.. not about the fact that millions have died. Did you know that Matt has gone to other countries to try to prevent this from continuing? He has obeyed. And he cares deeply about lost souls... as do I.




Also, I'm super confused at how anyone could think this wasn't speaking of more than one person... maybe I'm overdue for an English refresher course.

Doesn't "no one comes to the Father but through me", mean 'no one' comes to the Father but through me?

so when you say "no one" you actually mean just one person? If i say no one can fly...am i just referring to you? Does that mean that there are in fact some people that can fly?

Jesus said no one. its clear. nobody can come to the Father but through the Son. You can try to change "no one" but you cant change the definition of "no one"

Alrighty...

No one clearly means no one, BUT

As I have said before....

You are taking the quote out of context.

Jesus is speaking to Thomas about how he and the rest of the disciples will find their way to "[Jesus'] Father's house."


For simplicity let's reprint the whole thing.

Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house, there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you myself, so that where I am, there may you be also. And you know the way to the place where I am going.

Thomas said to him, "Lord we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?"

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth , and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him."

So...

Several elements make this verse subject to many different interpretations.

#1) Thomas, when he says: "How can -we- know the way?" is referring to himself and the rest of the disciples. Jesus' responds that "no one" (none of the disciplies) "comes to the Father except through me." While that is not the plain-face reading of the sentence, by itself. If you put Thomas and Jesus in a room together talking about how the disciples will find him, that is the most obvious meaning of the sentence.

#2) Nothing in the entire verse says anything about people finding the way to God through Jesus in their lifetimes on this Earth. There is nothing that prevents Jesus from saving people after they have died. There is nothing that prevents Jesus from saving people before they are born.

#3) It is arguable that people could come to the Father directly. Jesus does -not- rule this out when he says "If you know me, you will know my Father also." This is a conditional statement.

If you know Jesus ---> Know Father.

The contrapositive (when that statement is not true) is:

If you don't know Father ----> You don't know Jesus

Therefore, knowing Jesus is not a pre-condition to knowing the Father.

But but but! "No one comes to the Father except through me."

Well sure, but the Father can certainly bring someone through Jesus without anybody else's action. In fact the Father can bring someone through Jesus without the one being brought through even knowing who Jesus is.

Your missionary efforts are admirable, and I see nothing wrong with them. But I believe that it is clear that there are manifold paths to God, and that God is the ultimate arbiter of all things. I am not beholden to 2000 years of dogma, theology, tradition and practice. I am beholden to God, and God is in my heart, and what I believe I will speak up for.

Monty