You are playing in a $10-$20 blind no limit hold'em game online at FCP. One player limps in for $20 and you make it $80 with Q Q and two players call behind you, as does the big blind and the initial limper.

Now, which flop is better for the Q Q in the long run?

LOL...I really like these quiz questions. Guess I'm one of the first readers because DN posts around this time and it is approx. dinner time where I'm currently at. I voted 778 flop...don't have too much analysis for it but from experience I think this flop should be better and also more profitable in the long run...DN might tell me something I don't know though...

It depends on the types of players that called your raise with and hand range you have identified with them according to position/stack size/your image at the time. I'm not good with math so I don't have a clue as to understand which flop would theoretically be better for our hand. With the number of players that our involved in the hand I would rather have the K 3 7 board as opposed to the 7 7 8 one, no real reason why but with the generic information you have given that's my choosing. I suck at these quiz questions.

I'll guess 778 is worse, because you won't win much from any worse hand than yours, such as A8 or JJ, and you'll lose something to somebody with a 7. With the other flop, you should be able to determine if an opponent has a K with a lead out bet, and may even force him to fold a K with weak kicker if he puts you on AK. The callers probably have AQ, AJ, (maybe AK), or some mid pocket pair.

However, you can make the case the 778 flop is better because you will probably be cautious after your first bet with this flop, whereas the other flop you could get think your Qs are good if everyone folds but one person, and the put a second bet out on the turn. The one caller may be slowplaying a set, and you lose an extra bet or more. If there is one caller after you bet on the 778 flop, I'd think most people would be checking fearful of the 7. Then, they'd either check it down, or fold to a bet. So in the longgggrun, maybe 778 is better. Plus, you could hit your Q, and get all the money from someone with a 7, or 78. Just throwing out a bunch of possibilities pretty much. You can tell me the correct answer, I guess I'll say 778 is less dangerous longterm

The first flop is better.

Your opponents will put you on a hand such as a big pair or AK. Even if they made a mistake and are in this hand with something like KJ, they won't like it when you bet. GIven that no one reraised you (and the limper didn't limp-reraise), it's unlikely anyone has AA or KK. With no draws, it's unlikely that someone can semibluff-raise you off the best hand in a multiway pot if you bet the flop.

The 877 is problematic. Two diamonds, 9T, TJ (maybe with one diamond), and pocket pairs are all hands that can semibluff raise you off the best. You don't have a diamond for a backdoor flush draw to fall back on (and it makes it more likely that someone could have two diamonds, since you are not blocking the possibility of someone holding big suited connectors). It's fairly hard to hold on to an overpair with that flop, and I haven't even mentioned yet the non-negligible possibility that you got outflopped.

One last thing here is position. On a non-threatening board, it's easier to have the initiative. The big blind and the limper are likely to check the flop on this board, given the action. On a threatening board which can hit a lot of speculative hands in a multiway pot against players who are playing like they have speculative hands, it's much more comfortable to act with position.

Here, you have a decent sized pot, where people would consider making plays and you have the potential to be sandwiched between a late position call or raise and a semibluff checkraise in front of you when you might have the best hand on the flop. You can still be stuck in the middle on the first flop, but at least you know that the action means you are beat. You would have less fear of a flop like J 2 2

You're likely not facing a king in anyone's hand...you could definitely be facing hands like 56, 56, 78, 89, 9T or diaomond draws.

HOWEVER....

Though you win more often with the King flop, I think you win more money with the 778 flop, where you can earn dollars from those chasing the flush or straight draws, which DON'T get there as often as they do..

I don't think it is a matter of which flop you will win on more often, but rather I think it is which flop will you be able to win more/lose less money/chips on, which is the "long run" part of the question. Hence my answer!

You're not likely to face a king in anyone's hand????

You'll lose more when you're beat and win less when you're ahead when it comes 877, but when it comes k73 you'll lose less when your behind and win more when you're ahead.

-Andrew

I'm not sure you win too much with the K73 flop - you do lose little when you're behind, but I can't see you extracting too much money when you're ahead.

Yup - what is limping in front of you?

What is calling a 4x BB raise behind you?

Sure...perhaps KQ, or, a stretch, KJ, is in there...but you are more likely facing mid-suited connectors, middle pairs, or a range of aces.

In a 10-20 NL ring game, KQ and KJ are trouble hands that are easily dominated by the hand that raised, and a lot of quality players won't call with them...now, if someone limped/called with AK, so be it.

Of all the possible hands your 3 opponents are holding, a "king" hand is less likely....probably less than 10% of the time...even against three opponents.

Having said that, if someone raises your bet I think you have to get away from the hand.

7d7s8d is the best....a K flop with 4 other players gives you 2 outs to beat KK.
I think it is safe to assume that at least one of the other 4 players called the raise with at least 1 of them (probably the BB) holding a K in their hand.

I need 1 of 2 remaining Q's to win and most likely would fold the hand if someone led out with a bet of at least 1/2 the pot.


PS. After I posted this I went to Cardplayer.com's poker odds calculator and ran this. Interesting result!

I'm going with the K high flop

What you really want to say is that you are less likely to fold the best hand on the first flop and more likely to call with the second best hand on the second flop.

Also, I wanted to add, that clearly the second flop actually occurred. Someone overplayed QQ and called all-in when Daniel Negreanu pushed holding T7 sooooted.

If it were heads up it might be different, but against 4 players 778 with a 2 flush is a nightmare. You are dodging all diamonds and any card beside a Q, 2 or 3 is dangerous. Very hard to ever know where you are at.

With K73r though, any action and you are likely beat.

Information is money in poker, so any hand that is easier to read must be more profitable.

K73 for me

The number of players in without a reraise says drawing hands, suited connectors, small pairs, etc, The 778 flop is the flop you want when you are just calling a raise, hoping to connect.

The K with you in late position gives you a better opportunity to represent, and get away if reraised.

I have gotten 75% of these quizzes wrong. Curse Phil Helmuth and his book which was the first book I ever read. I can't unlearn his 'skills'



You say that like 10 7 suited isn't a monster...

How can you use cardplayer odds calculator without knowing your opponents cards? Is there another calculator out there that you can do this?

owise1

7 7 8.

Easy.

I just plugged in pocket aces, kings or queens. Obviously there may be someone who calls with any pair.

Good thought....I may go back and check any pocket pair and other top cards AK, AQ, and some sooted connectors.

I didn't do anyting scientific, just played around with it.

flop with pair of sevens is better for us.

We can be pretty sure noone has KK nor AA. We will loose $ if they do.

On the 77 flop we will get paid off by lots of pocket pairs.

The chances of someone having a 7 are lower than someone having a K. There are fewer sevens for opponents to have and oponents are less likely to play a hand with a seven in it.

Also we will have +EV from drawing hands.

Opalinski
opalpa@gmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/opalpaweb/

Really, with the pocket Queens, the first flop is much better. With all these callers, especially one's that have limped in then called a hefty raise in a multiway pot often indicate drawing hands.

This means that the flop of 7 7 8 is quite dangerous due to the fact that the chances of someone having a 7 are increased. The coordinated nature of the flop is dangerous and devalues your hand greatly.

There are few safe cards in the deck even if you are in the lead. If you are in the lead with this many players against you, any heart, 6, 9, 8 pretty much cripples you. An ace or king aren't good cards either. So basically, a little less than half the remaining cards in the deck can be potentially terrible cards, and you are giving away implied odds to other players by calling.

Whereas with the first flop, with the coordinated nature of the board there are less dangerous cards out against you. With this flop, all you fear is the unlikely set, or a player with the king. If there is a lot of betting and raising in front of you, you can safely lay this down.

i voted for K73 cause if your opponent bets strong hes either got a K or a set

if he plays it strong on the 778 flop he could have trips, a flush draw, a str8 draw, and over pair less than your QQ so it hard to determine if your beat r not

Wow, I'll be interested to see what DN thinks. I can't believe so many ppl so far have voted for the K73 flop to be better?? Anyone realize there is 80*4 in the pot already?

The K-High flop is definitely better because it is safer. Also, being that it is counter-intuitive its the obvious choice being that Daniel even made a quiz question out of it. If you look at these question in context the "right" answer is pretty easy to gleen without even thinking about, just like question 13 was a counter-example to question 12.

In any case, with a pair like QQ in a deep stack game with multiple opponents you're looking to either take it down on the flop with a bet or be able to get away from the hand confidently, you're NOT looking to play a big pot if you miss your set, even with an overpair and especially on a paired/connected board.

If you make a nice sized continuation bet on the drawless K-high flop people will have to respect your bet after your preflop raise. They are probably putting you on some high cards or a big pair to begin with. Therefore, people aren't going to be looking to play back at you with nothing, especially if they suspect, or at least have a reason to fear, that you may have flopped a very strong hand.

Conversely, on the paired draw-rich flop, not only are players going to suspect that you whiffed with a hand like AK or some other big unpaired hand, they are also much more likely to have flopped a big hand or a big draw which will allow them to make big raises that could be value bets or semibluffs and will put us on the defensive leaving us lost and suffering tremendously from reverse implied odds. We are in a spot to either be outplayed and moved off the best hand or to be stubborn and possibly pay off a monster.

To sum it up, you are crippled by reverse implied odds on the paired flop because you have no way of knowing where you are in the hand. With the K-high flop you should find out exactly where you stand because it is not a flop where (rational) people should be looking to take shots at you. K-high flop you will most likely either win a small/medium pot or lose a small pot, usually you'll win. Paired/connected flop you will often either win a small pot, lose a BIG one, or make an uncomfortable fold of what could easily be the best hand at the moment. With an unimproved big pair in multi-way pots you don't want a lot of action, especially from decent players.

Of course if this was an FCP tournament then I would be mostly afraid of the K73 flop because so many people actually think the Krablar is a good drawing hand.

I vote for this instead! nh.

Stack sizes???

I know it seems like the K73 board has to be the right choice since it's counter-intuitive, but I don't think it is.

Oh the 778 board, we can get paid off by a lower pocket pair, an 8, a straight draw, and a flush draw, all of which we'd be favored over.

On the K73 board, there's nothing that can call a bet that we're beating. I'd say that this flop turns QQ into 72 except that having 72 would actually be better on this flop since we have 5 outs against a pair of kings instead of 2.

We might lose more when we're behind on the 778 flop, (although we don't really have to if we have good hand-reading skills), but we make jack-**** when we're ahead except for the money that was put in the pot preflop.

Oh, and I've never played on FCP, but if it's anything like the higher limit games Party, I don't think we can completely discount hands like KJo or KTs. Just because someone has a couple thousand dollars doesn't mean they're completely fundamentally sound as a NL player.

Kd 7h 3s or 7d 7s 8d






These quizes get me every time. OK... the 2 players behind me call. I am thinking they have big cards, one may have king queen or king jack. I doubt they would have Ace king but it is possible. The limper... well that is tough. I am thinking they may have something like ace 7 or ace 8 and called because they felt they were getting pot odds. The limper could also have king 9, ace 10, ace 9 or something like that. What really is the likelyhood he has a 7? Hmm.






I think I would feel more comfortable with 7d 7s 8d flop. I can bet out strong and see if they fold. I am most worried about my limper. Thinking about it, he could have 7 8 suited. My strong bet should let me know, especially if he just calls.



I think with the flop with the king I am probably doomed. I would have to say that I would prefer the 77 flop because after the flop, I know I could get it down to heads up. The flop with the king and 4 players... I just think someone has got to have that king.





Now, I am sure I will feel quite silly after seeing Daniel's answer (though I have to admit, out of everything I have read and played, these quizes have helped me most with my game.)

I thought about it more, and I actually changed my mind. The thing is we need about a pot-sized bet to keep the draws from getting the right price on the 778 flop, and if it gets repotted, we have absolutely no idea where we are. We don't want to pay off trips for our whole stack, but a big draw could easily raise us, especially knowing that we're unlikely to have better than an overpair given our PF raise.

At least on the K high flop, no one can safely bluff us knowing that we couldn't have hit the flop, and if we do get raised, then we can be almost completely sure we're beaten.

I agree that stacks sizes matter somewhat, as we could probably safely commit $600 or $700 to this pot on the 778 flop, but if we've got something like $4000 behind, we could be in terrible shape here.

I think the K high flop is better.

A. Easier to get away from your hand when shown resistance by opponents.

B. In a 10 20 NL game the chances of someone having a 7 is greater than someone having a K here. Opponents at this level will not flat call a raise w AK, so that holding is unlikely. Rarely will a good player play a multi way raised pot with KQ (MAYBE suited, but also a remote possibility). They will however call a raise in a multi way pot w 76, 87, 75s etc. There could also be a bunch of draws out there.

IMO in the long run QQ will lose much more on the 778 flop than the K high flop. I dont think it's close

I originally said the king flop, but this should be changed.

With the 778 flop, only two cards can truly beat you (the remaining 7's). With the King flop, there are three that can immediately beat you and if somebody does have a king, you have no draw to pick up and you'll need one of the two queens remaining to have a chance at winning. Along with that, the 778 flop may lure chasers due to the pending straight draw and an obvious flush draw. Aggressive players with T9 and nut flush draws may chase and if they miss, that's more chips in the pot for you to win when they fail.

Along with that, you have an overpair and although you didn't hit the flop, you most likely have the best hand at the moment while in the king flop, you may not due to somebody having another king.

I like the 778 flop for two reasons.

1.) If you're beat...the bet will likely come from in front of you, and you can fold to it easily.

2.) If you're not beat yet, but someone is drawing to a hand than can beat you, you get to spoil his pot odds when it's checked to you.

I don't like the K73 flop for one reason.

1.) People play trouble hands like KQ, KJ, hell even K7 or K3 suited. Especially from blinds and especially from late positions behind couple other people to sweeten their pot odds. While it's unlikely that someone has an overpair...you could easily get wrecked by that cruddy player who finally hit a hand, and with 5 total people seeing the flop, I promise, he's one of them.

FWIW:

I voted for the K73. There aren't really any drawing hands with this board, so you are basically worried about if anyone has a King. If you aren't beat on the flop with the 778 board, many turn cards will beat you.

I'm voting for 778.

Hopefully, the raise PF has narrowed down the starting hand range somewhat to discourage someone holding a 7 (except maybe the BB). There are a lot of draws out there that will call a flop/turn bet (this is what we want, we just charge them a price to draw).

We can make a lot of money on this flop with any lower PP calling us. Any straight draw calling us. Any flush draw calling us. If we bet properly to this flop, I think we are far more profitable in the long run with this flop than the K73.

With the K73 flop, we either win a small pot (from someone with no K) or lose a big one to someone with a K. Also, our raise pre-flop has probably narrowed down somewhat our opponnents holdings to card combinations that likely contain a K.

You've got it a bit wrong here. The best part of the K73 flop is that we shouldn't lose a big pot. If we're beat, which is a lot less likely than most people probably realize, it should be pretty obvious since a pair of Kings is the worst hand that anyone should even call a flop bet with. Only a real monster should be getting aggressive on that flop, or anywhere in the hand, because its just the kind of flop that people will give you credit for hitting after raising preflop.

Also, to say that a K is a likely card in the hands of a cold caller is a mistake unless your opponents are extremely bad, which at 10-20 online they should not be. A King is actually a very unlikely hand for someone to cold call a raise with. KQ and KJ should be folded, AK will often re-raise (especially with position on you) and KK should definitely re-raise. That doesn't mean that no one can have a K, someone may have KQs, have played a big hand such as AK strangely, or made a loose/bad call with a weaker K. But overall a hand like 78s is a much more likely cold calling candidate than Kx if the players are even a little skilled.

Agreed.

WORD

First, we really, really should have the stack sizes. But . . .

I think everyone who's answering the king high flop is suffering from Fancy Answer Syndrome.

Kd 7h 3s
7d 7s 8d

On the second flop, we can get action from a lot of hands that we're beating: 99-JJ, A8s, straight draws, and flush draws. We could lose a lot of money if the draws hit, they say, or if we're already out-flopped. Well, we have to play after the flop. The question doesn't say we can't fold.





I should've read your post and just put "I agree."

I like the K-7-3 board because there are no straight draws. In a multi-way pot, the betting is more defined, and it's easier to put someone on a king if it goes bet-raise in front of you with two callers behind you, than it is if it goes bet-raise in front of you with a 7-7-8 board with two callers behind you. You can eliminate someone raising, trying to isolate with draws.

I like this answer by LooseCannon the best. I think the key point of the quiz that tilts things in favor of 778 being the worse option is the position you'll be in. Even if you discount the possibility of getting sandwiched, just a simple call or two behind you on this flop doesn't do much to define your hand. If the turn doesn't complete a flush or str8 draw, you are faced with a very tough decision. Your opponents could be drawing or just plain ahead with trips or a flopped boat. If you check the turn you'll get the pot taken away. If you bet the turn, you may be putting money into the pot drawing really thin and even if ahead, still putting yourself in a position to get outplayed.

I think if I had position throughout the hand, I might prefer the 778 flop, but not without it. With position I could at least have a better idea of where I stood on the turn and also have a shot at getting to a free/cheap showdown.

Also, other posters have mentioned that this board is good because you can get paid off by flush or str8 draws. But I think getting paid off here by those draws involves an extremely tough decision. The reason is that it is easy on this board for someone drawing to play aggressively and represent a made hand that you're far behind. There is also the possibility of a monster draw that is actually a slight favorite. Any 8 or lower pocket pair MIGHT pay you on the flop, but given the multiway nature of this hand, any player who's not a total donk would probably fold to your follow-through bet on the flop, especially if it generates follow-up action. Plus, you're going to be potting it or close to it against a field of 4 players. If I'm holding an 8 or lower pockets, I'm probably folding because I'm more inclined to give you credit for an overpair rather than a whiffed continuation bet since you're betting into so many players. Not to mention, holding top pair or lower pockets on this board is such a ridiculously vulnerable hand that I find it hard to believe someone would really play it against any kind of reasonable post-flop bet.

If you get raised, calling/re-raising here could be difficult because at best a villain is drawing and you're a 2-1 favorite, and at worst he isn't and you are positively crushed.

Im posting this without looking at any of the replys first. I do this because I don't want to be swayed one way or the other.

I think the 7 7 8 is the better flop. For one, your raised before the flop, got 2 cold callers and the other 2 just completed thier bets. This tells me everyone has either really high cards like AK, or pocket pairs. If it's pocket pairs, your QQ is surely a favorite, but more often than not the odds are sligtly better that it's 2 high cards like AK, AQ, or KQ. Another thing to consider is the board paired. If you do catch a Queen, you will now win most likely with your full house whereas the other flop is ragged and the best you can hope for is 2 pair which would be beat if anyone holds that King. Now, I do watch High Stakes Poker and have seen DN cold call with suited connectors and he won that pot when a flop such as 778 came up. The villian had AK and he had to throw it away because he knew DN has a thing for suited connectors. In this way it helps to know your opponent. But without any knowledge of my opponent I would put everyone on High Cards and once that overcard King hit I would junk my hand knowing that I was beat - especially with 4 other people in the pot.