belzer blew it by losing it and swearing which the R's love but really

as Bill Hicks mocked I find myself uncomfortable because I'm for the war but against our troops

I feel sorry for these kids - in the rare case that you have a guy who really wants to go over there like Pat Tillman he winds up disillusioned or dead or sadly both

the rest of these kids are 18 year olds who wanted to get school paid for - its hard to have any clue about geopolitics when your friends are dying and your leaders are hyping you up constantly about freeing the world from the devil




Richard Belzer was on Real time with Bill Maher last night. Also on the show was Florida Republican House member Ileana Ros-Lehtinen. The war in Iraq is always a hot topic on Real Time and below is a transcript of the debate between Belzer and Ros-Lehtinen.

Ros-Lehtinen: "Having been in Iraq a few times, and Afghanistan. Having met the troops. One on one, with free reign and asking them what they're doing. They are saying, 'We are proud of our mission. We know what we are doing over here. We don't want you guys in Washington to lose it over there. ' And there is a great sense of determination that what they are doing is making a difference. And yes, it has been an important mission, what we are doing. Come on!"

Belzer: "Yeah, come on. Our soldiers are... Our soldiers are now..."

Ros-Lehtinen: "A volunteer force! A volunteer force!"

Belzer: "Ok. No one is questioning the nobility and the honor that these men and women are serving and what they're doing. No one questions that. Now they're targets and they're not going... and their just protecting each other and they're in the middle of a civil war. So it's really not fair to have these people, who volunteered their lives to protect our nation under false pretenses, to now be targets... "

Ros-Lehtinen: "Ask them if it's fair. Wait a minute! My stepson son... Wait a minute! Wait a minute! My stepson son..."

Belzer: "That's bullshit, ask them! They don't read twenty newspapers a day. They're under the threat of death every minute. They're not the best people to ask about the war because they're going to die any second!"

Ros-Lehtinen: "You are talking about my stepson! My stepson! Who just finished, last week, eight months doury[sp], of duty!"

Belzer: "God bless your step son, but that doesn't mean he's a brilliant scholar about the war. Because he's there."

Ros-Lehtinen, pointing her finger at Belzer: "Oh! You are! You are though! Ok."

Belzer: "My life is not under threat."

Bill Maher: "The point I think he's trying to make is that a nineteen year old, who is in that army because he probably couldn't find other employment."

Ros-Lehtinen: "He's a college graduate. He's a Marine officer. He volunteered for the Marines."

Belzer: "He's an exception to the rule."

Ros-Lehtinen: "He's not the exception for the rule!"

Belzer: "You think everyone over there is a college graduate? They are nineteen and twenty year old kids who couldn't get a job."

Ros-Lehtinen: "You know that because you've been there and you've gone there."

Belzer: "What I don't ****ing read! Don't, don't do that?"

As soon as I saw the title of this thread I knew you posted it. So, so, so strange.

i make your day worthwhile - admit it - your my *****

...and so you agree with the guy ripping the troops for being stupid? Or am I confused.

he didn't rip them for being stupid
way to use words to mislead

what he said was that

1. they as a whole probably were ill judged to understand what they had found themselves stuck in

and

2. their support for the war - whether it exists or not is pretty irrelevant to whether it is moral or not

If you were in the SS in world war 2 and watched your best friend die in a trench next to you - your hate for the allies would be understandable - it would also be a not very good argument for the right of the german cause

we have a history of having rich people send poor people to do our killling - it is sad and wrong

Well from the soldiers that I know personally that were over there, both Afghanastan and Iraq, they spoke of their pride in doing the job not because they were afraid, but because of what they were doing for the people there, and how these people responded to them and how much thanks they got from the citizens of the respective countries.

And because you never know when you'll be on patrol and trip over a concrete bunker full of US currency.

And because you're allowed (encouraged?) to use explosives.

Or at least that's why I'd go...

The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed. That is the definition of ignorance according to Websters. According to Roget's thesaurus the following words are synonyms for ignorance: dumbness, mental incapacity, and simplicity. But I guess Webster's is misleading us.

As to your actual 'point', soldiers are actually there... what are you 20? 21? and you only spew crap you hear from Bill Maher and liberal professors. I'm not saying that one is right and one is wrong, but you don't know what's really going on in Iraq any more than you know what's going anywhere else. You are just doing what you are accusing them of doing. That is, spouting rhetoric.







What? Who was talking about any of this crap other than you?







Fishing in Alaska is dangerous... I know all about it, because I saw a Discovery Channel show on it. Every year something like 20 people die. THOSE ****INGG EVIL BOAT OWNERS!!! HOW DARE RICH PEOPLE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF POOR PEOPLE BY GIVING THEM A JOB!!! DAMN AMERICA!!!! DAMN AMERICA!!!!



FYI: I like Bill Mahers show.

ignorence is being unaware - stupid is being unable to be aware given the info

and yes i believe those guys haven't a clue about the bigger issues - they are scared for their lives and screwed because their college tuition is gonna cost them their lives

working on a fishing boat is hardly being sent over by fatcats to be targets to protect their oil

and yeah it sucks that some people have enough cash that they can pay people who don't to jeopardize their lives to survive -

What did George Bush ever do for his money - besides cheerlead at yale




which is no offense why they are being shot at


it has nothing to do with mahar it is simply where the dispute took place
maher dressed down belzer for swearing

I can't respond to this, since I would just be repeating my entire post.. Did you actually read it? Look again at the synonyms... Look again at the 'rich' boat owners.... look again at the entire thing... Both are jobs that people signed up for knowing the risks... no one took advantage of anyone. How do you people not understand this?

people on fishing boats are taken advantage of by the inherent unfairness of a system that left them poor

yeah its a good job if your dad wasn't a corrupt oil baron - i wouldnt feel good about owning that business unless the fish were totally vital to the survival of the populace

dollars don't mean right

no one signs up for the military unless their economics need them too unless they are a complete and utter moron

oh and i'm 40 and i know it because i've read history and its been happening forever

it happened in south america and it happened in viet nam

ever heard of the gulf of tonkin resolution
find those wmds yet?

are you kidding?

not in the least

there has to be a point in our evolution and i know you guys don't dig that term where we put the guns down and stop killing each other

you really want your son in the military?

the twin towers in not pearl harbor - it was sad, george bush wants you to think it is - but its not

ok wait i amend that - pat tillman signed up for good reasons - which he found out were untrue and then died

so then again yeah i hold to my original point

wow.

so it seems you disagree with any military whatsoever?

i think it sucks that we have to have one
i think it sucks that poor people have to die to protect whatever it is they are protecting

did you know that you could get out of the civil war for like 200 bucks

its at best a necessary evil and one that is bourne by the disadvantaged in our society

Is this where you say "If we don't have a millitary, anybody can take us over."? Cause....that's a popular line with hawks....and it misses the point pretty badly...



This is pretty true. My roomate, who will be in Iraq in May, joined the millitary to pay for college. I have numerous friends that have done the same. They don't agree with what's going on, but they don't have much of a choice.

Pretty sure I didn't say that anywhere, but good try

Perhaps you've never heard of ROTC? West Point? Annapolis? The Air Force Academy? Thousands upon thousands of kids filter through these programs and schools into the military every single year, and it isn't because they're too poor or too stupid to get a real job. It's because they've never wanted anything more in their lives than to join the military and serve this country.

I never said you said it. I was asking if you were going to say it. Two very different statements.

No. And it wasn't at all presumptuous or condescending to infer that I'm a "hawk".

Yeah and they'd be better off joining the peace corps or teaching kids in the inner city and they'd be serving america better

no offense but i've met a lot of those dudes and they have serious issues
so did george patton

These are your opinions, which you continue to be allowed to voice in no small part because of the people these programs provide to the Armed Forces.

I have to say that your statement about the disadvantaged is, while to some degree true, off.

Sure, there are plenty of people who join the military because it is "their only out"(even though I'm not sure they've tried everything, who knows). But there is also an abundance of people in the military who are very intelligent and well informed, and I'm talking about young people of low rank, not older officers.

I know of quite a few people who joined the military (before 9/11, mind you) who had other possible career paths and college possiblities in front of them, but chose the military for whatever reason, be it national pride or whatever. And no, not all of those people agreed with the Iraq war. I have one particular friend who is a staunch Democrat and disagreed with the Iraq war from the get-go. He was sent to Afghanistan, and even though he didn't want to go, he understood that there was a reason that he was going.

I can understand the arguments about Iraq and whether or not we should have gone, and thats a healthy discussion to have, but I cannot see how a person can say that there was no reason to go to Afghanistan. That just makes very little sense to me.

no not at all these are my opinions that i am allowed to voice because as thomas jefferson said they are inalienable and granted to me by my creator

last time I checked the US has never had to defend itself on its soil since oh 1812 or so

we have on the other hand done a lot to meddle in the affairs of others for better or for worse

we aren't under attack - some wackos flew some planes into a building
losing 3000 people is said but over 200 years hardly a reason for george bush to take tons of foreign lives and to ravage the constitution by playing on the fears of the populace for security

you have the cart before the horse

You pompous little azzbag. Who the ****_ do you think you are?

I have two nephew's in the army and 3 of my eagle scouts in the Navy and my son is going to do Navy ROTC at Purdue next year

Not a single one of them joined because of "economic circumstances" and I will bet that they are all about 1000% smarter than you (well maybe except for one of my nephews.)

If I knew where you were I would hunt you down and kick your pimpled little azz!

This guy is the best example of a patriot and look what happened to him - read the whole thing


Born in San Jose, California, Tillman started his college career at the linebacker position for Arizona State University in 1994, when he secured the last remaining scholarship for the team. Tillman excelled as a linebacker at Arizona State, despite being relatively small for the position at five-feet eleven-inches (1.80 m) tall. As a senior, he was voted the Pac-10 Defensive Player of the Year. Academically, Tillman majored in marketing and graduated in three and a half years with a 3.84 GPA.

In the 1998 NFL Draft, Tillman was selected as the 226th pick by the Arizona Cardinals. Tillman moved over to play the safety position in the NFL and started ten of sixteen games in his rookie season.


Pat Tillman after graduating from the U.S. Army Basic Combat Training (AP Photo)In May 2002, eight months after the September 11, 2001 attacks and after completing the fifteen remaining games of the 2001 season which followed the attacks (at a salary of $512,000 per year)[4], Tillman turned down a contract offer of $3.6 million over three years from the Cardinals to enlist in the U.S. Army. [5] He enlisted along with his brother Kevin, who gave up the chance of a career in professional baseball. The two brothers completed training for the elite Army Ranger school in late 2002 and were assigned to the second battalion of the 75th Ranger Regiment in Fort Lewis, Washington. Both Pat and Kevin were deployed to the Middle East as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Tillman was subsequently redeployed to Afghanistan, where, on April 22, 2004, he was killed in action by friendly fire while on patrol. His unit, according to the Army, was attacked in an apparent ambush on a road outside of the village of Sperah about twenty-five miles (forty km) southwest of Khost, near the Pakistan border. An Afghan militia soldier was killed, and two other Rangers were injured as well. The U.S. Department of Defense concluded that Pat Tillman's death was due to friendly fire aggravated by the intensity of the firefight. It was later learned that, in fact, no hostile forces were involved in the firefight and that two allied groups fired on each other in confusion over an exploded mine or remote controlled bomb. U.S. Army Special Operations Command, however, initially claimed that there was an exchange with hostile forces. A later investigation conducted by Brigadier General Jones found that the Army was slow to correct the story of a hostile exchange of fire after learning that it was false.

Tillman was the first professional football player to be killed in combat since the death of Bob Kalsu of the Buffalo Bills, who died in the Vietnam War in 1970. Tillman was posthumously promoted from Specialist to Corporal. He also received posthumous Silver Star and Purple Heart medals. He is survived by his wife Marie.

[edit]
Controversy regarding circumstances of death
A report described in the Washington Post on May 4, 2005 (prepared upon the request of Tillman's family) by Brig. Gen. Gary M. Jones revealed that in the days immediately following Tillman's death, U.S. Army investigators were aware that Tillman was killed by friendly fire. Jones reported that senior Army commanders, including Gen. John Abizaid, knew of this fact within days of the shooting but nevertheless approved the awarding of the Silver Star, Purple Heart, and a posthumous promotion. The citation report accompanying these awards said that Tillman was killed by enemy forces and contained a detailed account of the alleged battle which Army leadership knew had never taken place.

Jones reported that members of Tillman's unit burned his body armor and uniform in an apparent attempt to hide the fact that he was killed by friendly fire. Several soldiers were subsequently punished for their actions by being removed from their Ranger unit. [6] Jones believed that Tillman should retain his medals and promotion, since he intended to engage the enemy and, in Jones's opinion, behaved heroically. [7]

Tillman's family was not informed of the finding that he was killed by friendly fire until weeks after his memorial service, although at least some senior Army officers knew of that fact prior to the service. [8] Tillman's parents have sharply criticized the Army's handling of the incident; they charge that the Army was more concerned about protecting its image and its recruiting efforts than about telling the truth. [9] His mother Mary Tillman told the Washington Post, "The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting." Tillman's father Patrick Tillman, Sr. was incensed by the coverup of the cause of his son's death, which he attributed to a conscious decision by the leadership of the U.S. Army to protect the Army's image:

After it happened, all the people in positions of authority went out of their way to script this. They purposely interfered with the investigation; they covered it up. I think they thought they could control it, and they realized that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a handbasket if the truth about his death got out. They blew up their poster boy. [10]

He also blamed high-ranking Army officers for presenting "outright lies" to the family and to the public. [11]

Later, Tillman's father suggested in a letter to the Washington Post that the Army hierarchy's purported mistakes were part of a pattern of conscious misconduct:

With respect to the Army's reference to 'mistakes in reporting the circumstances of [my son's] death': those 'mistakes' were deliberate, calculated, ordered (repeatedly), and disgraceful -- conduct well beneath the standard to which every soldier in the field is held. [12]
He also alleged that the soldiers who had burned Tillman's body armor had done so on the direct orders of their superiors. [13]

These complaints and allegations led the Pentagon's Inspector General to open a further inquiry into Tillman's death in August 2005. [14]

On March 4, 2006, the U.S. Defense Department Inspector General directed the Army to open a criminal investigation of Tillman's death. The Army's Criminal Investigative Division will determine if Tillman's death was the result of negligent homicide. [15]

[edit]
Anti-war Stance
The September 25, 2005 edition of the San Francisco Chronicle newspaper reported that Tillman held views which were critical of the Iraq war and did not support President Bush's re-election. According to Tillman's mother, a friend of Tillman had arranged a meeting with Noam Chomsky, to take place after his return from Afghanistan. The article also reported that Tillman urged a soldier in his platoon to vote for John Kerry in the 2004 U.S. Presidential election. [16]








well admittedly i was a little harsh but seriously - why are they in the army - why would you want your sons and nephews trained to kill - its not necessary and the people that are telling you that are misleading you and using you for their own selfishness

I'm guessing that there were tons of honorable heroic soldiers in viet nam who fought and died in vain in an unjust cause and its a tragedy

and which branch of the military did you serve in to come up with that notion that only poor people and morons join the military?

i take that back but again

Read about Pat Tillman - tell me a better example ever of a man joining the military and look what happened to him



if it were 1941 i'd sign up
today i'd advise everyone i care about to stay as far away as possible

let the bush and cheney familys fight

a few things have come to mind here reading through this.

first, people that have been on the ground fighting overseas, say that they understand and support what is going on.

second, I know some people that willingly enlisted in the armed forces because they wanted to, money was not a deciding factor. (based on what they told me)

third, ROTC...sure you get college paid for, but I have to believe that you get full disclosure as to what the terms are for taking them up on the pay for college offer.

fourth, do some kids join up because of economic reasons? Probably. I think the group of people that do it strictly for monetary reasons are the minority.

I support the military for doing something I could never do. I disagree with some of the reasons why we go overseas, but that's a different conversation

and why genious do you think that above statement is able to be made?

Keith, and I ask this in all seriousness, do you have another account here that you use in the Religion forum? Because this thread is starting to sound an awful lot like the one from that zzz guy.

last time i checked if we dismantled all our bombs - canada isn't coming down in a ravaging horde

our country has been manipulated by a military industrial complex that makes tons of money by selling us war --

y'know how I know that - cuz General Dwight D Eisenhower former President of the United States told me so




no clue who zzz is my thoughts are my own and i;m not a troll

Is that a joke?

i, me, Norm served in the U.S. Navy for 10 years. Been in 2 wars. the panama invasion and the 1st persian gulf war.

both wars lasted months.

Now bonehead. what do you think i was doing the rest of the time in the navy?

the us military does a HELL of a lot more than just "kill people". My ship and patrol boats were tasked on MANY humanitarian missions where we brought food, medicine and what not to people who needed it.

And i'll tell you something idiot! Those were worse missions than any war was!




You don't want to pick up a rifle and help, that's your right as a U.S. Citizen and that is PROVIDED to you courtesy of the U.S. Military!

think about that some time.

no read about Eisenhower go to google and type in his name and military industrial complex




honestly i think that's great and that's how it should be - but when you sign up you willingly sign away your freedoms to serve the power elite and they for the most part have served your courage - badly - just as they did with pat tillman

I don't doubt that he said that, just think it's funny that you of all people are saying something is true just because someone said it.

The U.S. Military takes great pains and great lengths to make sure that conflicts that will inevitably happen will NOT happen on this soil! For YOUR protection!

Doesn't really matter where a fight is, we'll be there! But for YOUR dumbass we choose to fight elsewhere!

what happened to the idea of not fighting
guess my dumb *** is dumb for wanting that





not at all when the leader of the biggest military mission in the history of the world says that the military industrial complex is completely out of control i stand up and listen - why would he lie - surely he would know

Hey I think you stole my old signature.

must be a wonderful world you live in.

it's rather nice that you'd not rather fight! Here's a ****ing clue, i didn't want to fight in 2 wars. But i was ready, willing and able to! but i didn't WANT to.

just because YOU don't want to fight doesn't mean the OTHER guy is gonna leave you any other option other than to FIGHT!

That's why we prepare and train moron!

Warriors abhor War, However, we are not afraid to fight one and win!

But i'd love to know where you live so i can illustrate this principle by punching you square in the nose a couple of times just to see if you'll fight!

What does Pat Tillman have to do with anything?

He was a football player who had everything going for him and gave it up willingly to serve his country.

Unfortunatly he paid the ultimate price. As much as he brought more media attention to the war, his sacrifices while greater in terms of money were equal to that of everyone else who chooses to serve.

they give up their lives so that at the drop of a hat they can go defend our country. There have been hundreds of others that have died in this war alone, not counting the countless that have died in previous wars. They all make greater sacrifices then I would be willing to make.

As much as this pains me to say, if Pat Tillman was some regular guy who didn't play football, does it get the attention it received and is still receiving? I don't think so. We live in the time of mass media, where we get half truths and spun stories. We will never truly know what's going on unless we go over there ourselves


*these are my opinions, I have no firsthand knowledge of things.

You keep talking about the Pat Tillman situation. First off, where did you get those stories? I've never heard about any of that, I'd like to read about it.

And second, the stories state that Pat was against the war in Iraq, not Afghanistan, the one in which he was fighting. What happend to him was sad, but what point is it proving? That sometimes people in the military die? That some people in the Army are corrupt? I mean honestly, what large organization of any type doesn't have a level of corruption? That doesn't make the whole picture a bad idea. Baby. Bathwater. You know.

right which is why you should have read what i posted

he went over because of what the government told him - found out a lot of it had been lies - was killed by his own army which then used his name and lied about the way he died to capitalize on his courage and honor. It's a horrible story read about it.

The guy gave up everything believing what he was told by his country and then they lied about the way he died to ensure that it would happen to others

he has everything to do about it

I'm not denigrating soldiers i'm denigrating the people that lie to them and sacrifice them for their own selfish agendas




they lied about the way he died to make the effort in which he was fighting seem more honorable and organized - they took a guy who was deeply honorable and soiled his name by enveloping his death in a coverup - please read about it

again i'm not saying he is instructive because he died - he knew the risk - i'm sad because he was lied to and then to make it worse they lied to his parents and the us public at his funeral ceremony - that's sick! and they did it to prop up their miltaristic goals

_____________________________________________________________

Cat got your tongue keith?

Nothing about the hundreds of humanitarian missions that even the Peace corp wouldn't do?

We get no love for that?

oh. i forgot, i'm just a poor moron that just wants to kill people!

Seriously, what lies was he told about Afghanistan? Was the Taliban not really there? Did the Jews attack the towers, not Al Queda?

He was against the war in Iraq. Not Afghanistan. He was fighting in Afghanistan, not Iraq.

I'm just going to say this and then be done with this conversation.

The life that each and every one of us leads in the United States today is only possible because this country has a strong military that assures we will always be as safe as they can possibly keep us.

Anyone who thinks that the only threats to our safety and security come from Canada and Mexico (our neighboring countries) is a fool. This country would have ripped itself to shreds during any number of Political, Natural, or Economical hardships (20's - Great Depression, 40's - WWII, 60's - Civil Rights Movement, 70's - Fuel Shortages, 90's - Race Wars, 00's - Hurrican Katrina, and an entire lifetime of others) if not for the fact that the military was able to step in and keep the peace through the threat, not use, of force.

Look at what happened in this country in just 2 days after Hurrican Katrina. One of our largest cities was reduced to nothing short of no-man's land because there was no law, no order, nothing to stop it. 2 ****ing days. It could happen anywhere in the United States, the only thing stopping it is the promise that it will not be tolerated and the military might to back that promise up.

The military also keeps our country safe from foreign aggressors. If not for a strong military keeping us safe, we would all be speaking German or Japanese or both right now because there would have been nothing to stop the Empirical German and Japanese governments from taking our country over and making it their own. If you think nothing like that could ever happen again, you're a fool. Without the military, this would still be a country ruled by Great Britain, France and Mexico. Without the military there would be nothing to stop those nations from restaking their claim to our homes. Perhaps that's what certain people want, I really don't know.

To say that today's society no longer needs the military is a ludicrous statement. Today's society could never exist without it, and would cease to exist in *extremely* short order if not for it. You don't need to look any further than New Orleans - 2005 to know this is true.

"Those who fail to learn from their history are destined to repeat it"

i responded to that applauded you and wrote some other stuff please read it as i read you

additionally i never said we didn't need a military - but i do recognize that in the wrong hands all the benefits of a military can be turned around

the same military that protects you in a just administration - will be the same military that shoots you down in an unjust one

soldiers follow orders they don't question them - if the men giving those orders are unjust and i think currently they are - the soldiers are required to carry out these unjust orders all the same

it added your reply to the back of your other post. i didn't purposely not read it.

it's simply ludacris to make blanket statements about things you obviously know nothing about!

pat tilman wasn't LIED to. he served and he died.

here's a small little fact about war you may or may not know! You can do everything right and still die!

the ONLY people that KNOW about pat tillman are the people that were on that hill that day!

unless you are quoting one of those guys, then i don't want to hear it.

if he suddenly found out that he was Lied to and what not, he could've claimed "consientious object" and he would have been taken out of the warzone!

he fought and died because he WANTED to! period. To say anything less is such a slap to the face on pat tillman, his legacy, the military's legacy and all that have fought and died to allow you to say these stupid irrational things!

Keith, do you have a link to those articles?

You are right in one regard. the military takes it's orders from the civilian leadership. you don't like that leadership, change it. but don't you ever ever say that the military is full of poor morons.

we do much more than you can ever possibly imagine nor that can be typed out within the confines of this medium.

Basically. get your **** straight. Don't like the leadership? don't blame the military!

Did you even vote in the last election?