This came up in another topic and and Mrdannyg asked if I would write some more on it. I want to hit this from a few standpoints...one is to introduce logically how sex from a christian standpoint is not bad, then i want to talk about the bibles take of sex inside and outside a marriage. I will attempt to show as many verses as possible but if i forget any, please feel free to add them in. I am only human haha.

Lets go with some assumptions a christian makes
1. All that God creates and does is good
2. Man comes from God
3. sex is how man and women reproduce and come together...as decided by God
4. Since sex comes from God therefore we can logically say sex is good

That was just some simple logic to show how logically sex is a good thing

Ok...now lets get to what the bible says

We have established that sex in itself is good. But what are some side effects of sex and how do they relate to the topic inside and outside of marriage

Well right off we know lust is bad:
Matthew 5:27-28 - "You have heard that it was said,'You shall not commit adultery'; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Lust is a byproduct of a strong sex drive and obviously sex with many partners is fuel to this fire. Lust leads to masturbation, pornography, and so forth. Guys especially get the short end of the stick in this category and all can attest to the daily struggle with lust that we endure.

Now that lust has been established as bad, Lets look at the extramaritial/premarital relations:

Hebrews 13:4 "Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge

1 Thessalonians 4:3-7 "For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. God will judge."

1 Corinthians 5 and 6 are both great passages talkin about what the problems with immorality are.

Basically the point of this is dont do it..Thats common sense though...Extramarital and premarital sex increase lust, increase disease and increase problems. This is a problem affecting christians as well as everybody else. Lust is an extremely powerful tool of the devil.


Ok now lets take a look at marriage:

Genesis 2:18-25 - this right off shows how women came to be. If you notice verse 24 it says "For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh"

Proverbs 5:15-20 - "Drink water from your own cistern And fresh water from your own well. Should your springs be dispersed abroad, Streams of water in the streets? Let them be yours alone And not for strangers with you. Let your fountain be blessed…And rejoice in the wife of your youth. As a loving hind and a graceful doe, Let her breasts satisfy you at all times; Be exhilarated always with her love. For why should you, my son, be exhilarated with an adulteress And embrace the bosom of a foreigner?"

Ephesians 5:28-31 - "So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body.For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

1 Corinthians 7:5 - "Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control"

Thats 4 verses on the Joy of sex...now yes sex is also meant for populating the earth as well.

Genesis 1:28 - "God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

These verses show quite well the view of sex. It is something to enjoy with your wife. It should be with all the passion that you would expect of it. All that God asks is that you keep it in your marriage. 1 Corinthians is a good read as you will read about a church that was having major issues in this department. Paul spends quite a bit of time pleading with them to quit what they are doing.

Contrary to the acts of most modern christians, divorce also is not condoned by the bible except in cases of immorality.
Matthew 19:9 - “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Homosexuality is not condoned either as each of these verses show:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals..."

1 Timothy 1:8-10 - But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who ae lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homsexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjureres, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,"

Romans 1:26-27 - "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function of that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function fo the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."

Well I am sure this isnt a complete list as other people who have read the bible will have other verses to add to this list for the specific topics. But these verses in my opinion all give a good view of how God views sex. Songs of Solomon is a great book to look at the love that should exist between a man and woman. It is kinda graphic even which is why i didnt detail it in here.

The main points i wanted to make though is that sex in a marriage is not bad, it is encouraged and those who try to limit it arent going from the bible. I am not sure why there was a move to limit it inside the marriage. Outside though it is definately not endorsed. The culture in which we live is a definate attack on the christian view of lust and what not as the phrase goes "sex sales"...

I hope this helps those who were wondering and is encouraging to those who struggle with this issue everyday

If gay marriage becomes sanctioned by the state, would Christianity accept married gay couples as non-sinners?

no b/c the bible defines it as a man and woman coming together though im not so sure it will ever be an issue. I think there is enough unrest about this for it to ever come to be

There was also a time when women couldn't vote, and more recently a time when black people couldn't share public facilities with white people. You could say that those struggles were times of unrest similar to this one.

difference is that christians are considered the majority in this country and the bible is very clear on this situation. The others didnt have biblical backing and so they were issues were you would have a blending of people comin together to get those approved. Both believers and nonbelievers could make a case for women voting or black people being equals...where as no christian can make a case for homosexual marriage...

thanks very much for this Matt, it is exactly what I was hoping you'd put up.

Proverbs 5:15-20 - "Drink water from your own cistern And fresh water from your own well. Should your springs be dispersed abroad, Streams of water in the streets? Let them be yours alone And not for strangers with you. Let your fountain be blessed…And rejoice in the wife of your youth. As a loving hind and a graceful doe, Let her breasts satisfy you at all times; Be exhilarated always with her love. For why should you, my son, be exhilarated with an adulteress And embrace the bosom of a foreigner?"

- i think this one really exemplifies that sex between a married couple does not need to be for procreation.

and the Romans quote does a good job of showing God's distaste for homosexuals, though amusing that he groups them with:
"murderers and immoral men and homsexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjureres."

Odd also that he groups these together:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals..."

Why is "effeminate" in there?
effeminate: 1 Having qualities or characteristics more often associated with women than men. See Synonyms at female.
2 Characterized by weakness and excessive refinement
(dictionary.com).

I thought though that "the meek shall inherit the earth." I realize that meekness and effeminity are different, but it seems a fine line.
More importantly, it is suggesting that the effeminate will not inherit the kingdom of God. Well, about half the people on this world have "effeminate" characteristics (ummm women?). Are they not to share with the men in receiving the kingdom of God?
There are female priests, but they cannot receive?
It seems to dismiss effeminate men, you have to dismiss women as well.

Similarly, it seems logical to consider homosexuality wrong if you believe that sex outside marriage is wrong. But as you point out, sex inside marriage is fine, even if it is not with the goal of procreation. If a man and a woman are unable to conceive, then why is their marriage any less sinful than a marriage between two men, since they can also biblically have "good" sex without procreation, and their inability to procreate is also not "wrong."

I realize the bible cannot be as specific as we'd like it to be, but does it make a specific argument as to why homosexuality is wrong, given the above arguments, or do we just have to chalk it up to "god said it, and what god says is correct."

Thanks again Matt for the time and efforts in finding these.
Daniel

Im gonna attempt to answer them without copying it as it will make the post overly long..



Yes i wanted to make sure it was realized that sex just isnt for procreation. I hope that was clear? I wasnt tryin to say it was but that it was meant to be exactly what it was meant to be. God wouldnt have given us the sex drive He did if he didnt want us to use it.



The full verse is below i just didnt add in verse 10 as it didnt deal with the topic at hand:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor theives, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God

Its quite an extensive list haha

as for effeminate - it is implies "effeminate by perversion" referring to the perverse sex.



i think i cleared this up in the above post on what exactly he meant by effeminate being a perverse people. Meek more implies as it implies a humble, gentle person



Well the bible is overly clear that man and woman are supposed to come together to be one. Paul and Peter are both overly clear that that a man and woman are meant to be together and nothing else. Plus we can turn to the fall of Sodom and Gommorah as evidence of what God thinks about homosexuality. Both were destroyed and we see a big focus coming in Genesis 19 1-5

Verse 5 specifically deals with a major reason why homosexuality was the downfall. A quick overview is that 2 angels came to visit Sodom to test the city for righteous

verse 5: "and they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them."

Once Lot got his family out the town was destroyed

when used correctly it is good.
sex is a great thing but God doesnt want us all going around having sex with everything with a skirt.
God wants us to be faithful to one person not many.

Checkout nooma.com and watch the one called Flame. It is about this topic...

EDIT: Actually just checked and it only allows you to view a clip of it... nevermind :-)

Thanks for the post Matt, interesting stuff.


I, for one, know that God does not want me to have sex. He proves that every weekend when I try.

The part of the bible where it takes about homesexuality as a sin is
flat out wrong. You people will believe anything you read in the bible.
God is full of love, nothing else. Read 2Kings 2 23:24
Do you honestly think that God had dozens of small children eaten alive by bears. The only part of the bible that is worth reading is where it talks about loving yourself and others. Anything else is a bunch of bs and/or is not needed in order to understand what God is and what he wants from us. God is love.

hahaha... good luck with this view.

AS for 2 Kings 2:23-24...your read of the verses is a little off...I knwo what your kjv is going to say lmd but like i have told you many times the translation isnt perfect. So lets look at what the verses really say

"Then he (Elijah) went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, "Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!" When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up the 42 lads of their number."

Now lets look at somethings in this.

1. the word na'ar translates as lad though it refers to young men not little boys. The would have been around 13-14ish.
2. Baldhead itself was a term of disrespect towards Elijah
3. Look at what they told Elijah to do? "go up" What were they saying. They were taunting him telling him to "go up" to heaven..Perform some miracle. Basically mocking God. Challenging God.
4. So what does God do? He sends the bears. Is this the first time He has used animals? No...1 King 13:24

Yes zzz God is love but He is also just. The bible makes it very clear. He does not and will not ever tolerate sin. Many have paid with thier life and many more will pay with thier life

but this is really offtopic

as for the bible and homosexuality...no it is not wrong. The verses stand alone

You can't possibly believe that god is love and god can get angry. That is a contradiction. You must not know what love is. The only thing worth reading in the bible is the 13th and 14th chapters of First Corinthians.

haha...did i ever say God gets angry? I said God is just...God is love too..but He is just...

God is only love, nothing else. Love has nothing to do with killing people.
Therefore, the bible is contradicting itself.

haha..you cant pick and choose things that match your predetermined definition and then dismiss the bible b/c of this...Try applyin this theory to life and see how far yah get

I don't know that I disagree that god finds homosexuality a sin. (I'm in trouble here!) I do like to look over the different translations based on bible version. I'm having trouble finding the original Greek, but I found a website that offers some discussion of the original Greek terms for effeminate and homosexual.

Look towards the bottom of the page.

That being said, I am bisexual and haven't reconciled this with the fact that I am Christian. I can't find a place in the scripture that allows for me to be that and still walk with the Lord, but that doesn't jibe with the idea that God made me what I am.

I also don't like the idea put forth by the OP that "lust is a tool of the devil". Lust is what attracts a man to his wife and vice versa. Yes, it is powerful, and doesn't constrain itself to marital relationships, but I think it is necessary for the a healthy sexual relationship which according to the OP is something God wants for married couples. Admittedly, an overabundence of lust is probably my biggest flaw.

As you might already know, Nikki is all about the love.

So Here it is in KJV

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


Here it is in NIV

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders


NRSV

Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites,

Young's Literal Translation

have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,



Here is an excerpt from the website that I found (linked above). It has an interesting discussion on the different views (conservative or liberal) of this passage.

"Conservatives typically use the NIV or KJV versions of the Bible. They generally interpret passages literally, and believe that Paul was inspired by God to write epistles which were inerrant. These translations condemn "homosexual offenders" and "abusers of themselves with mankind." Essentially all Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Christians believe that this verse condemns all homosexual activity, whether by males or females. They view it as valid today as it was in the first century CE. Verse 6:11 states clearly that once gays and lesbians become saved, then they will no longer wish to engage in homosexual activities. They will presumably become heterosexuals

From a forum on homosexuality and the Bible in the Philadelphia Inqurier: 1
bullet A. Mohler: "I believe it explicitly relates to homosexuality. It has been understood that way in the Christian Church from the earliest era."
bullet T. Crater: "It [malakoi] can have a meaning that's not carnal. But the way it's used -- it's embedded in the same context with adultery -- it's pretty clear what the meaning is...A hallmark of Evangelicals is that we take a literal, normal, face-value interpretation of the Bible. Some people attempt to keep some form of Christianity and hold on to homosexuality, too. It leads to strange interpretations of the Bible."
bullet Liberals generally do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. They believe that Paul was writing from his own knowledge and experience. During the 1st century CE, even an educated person like Paul would know very little about human sexuality, compared to present-day sexuality researchers . From the same forum:
bullet J. Nelson: "Paul used the Greek word malakoi. They translate it as effeminate and so on. It could mean that; it might not. It can mean soft. Paul was a Jewish theologian. Someone from a Jewish background would consider that behavior unacceptable. Many Greeks did not."
bullet D. Bartlett: "There's considerable debate over what the Greek words mean. We just don't know. I've read most of the debate, and I don't know."
bullet K. Stendahl: "When people come to me -- deeply Christian people -- and say, `This is the way I am created. This is how God made me, how He makes me feel love,' I have to respect that. We know many things people [like Paul] did not know at that time. One should read the Bible with some kind of reason." 1"




God can be angry. God is vengeful. God shows his righteous wrath all over the Old Testament. God hates sin and cannot be in its presence. Fortunately for us He sent Jesus to us to spread the word of love. He sacrificed his Son, his physical connection to man, so that our sins are forgiven and we can ascend to Heaven to be in His presence. Jesus is God and Jesus is Love itself.

Nikki let me say first off that nobody is judging you for homosexuality..but from a biblical standpoint if you face God with this you will be in trouble for it. But I must tell you as a christian what the bible says so please dont be mad or upset. If you look at 1 Corinthians you will see that it was a church in trouble. Read it once or twice and youll see the focus of Pauls letter. He wants them to flee from that stuff...

Next you said lust is what attracts you to your wife/husband....Well thats not exactly true.

It is not lust to look at another and thing they are beautiful
It is lust to look at another and think about what you want to do with them or to imagine them in a specific way.

there is a difference between the 2.

AS you said you have an overabundance of lust. That is what I was saying is the logical step. Once you get sucked deeper and deeper in. I woudl imagine that you woudl agree that some of the things you do now are not what you originally did but that your lust has increased. Do you see why? B/c any minute you are giving into lust is a moment you are not glorifying God and that is exactly what the devil wants!!!!

Of the translations you showed it does bring up a problem. They all dont appear the same. Well thats b/c they dont all follow the same guidelines. The KJV is going to be close though language wise outdated. The NASB is a word for word translation of the greek so it is the best modern translation. The NIV is a phrase for phrase translation and so while it is good its nto exact. The rest branch out farther and farther.

Finally yes that is a problem. Roman culture had no problem with homosexuality and more specifically man and boy relationships. But as a christian we were called to avoid that. That was a huge issue in Corinth is that they were giving back into the pagan traditions. It was not an easy culture. Compared to what we deal with now, today is a cakewalk compared to what they dealt with.

Again. I dont mean this in any sort of mean tone...just wanted to answer your questions as best I could

edit: wanted to add this in for all to look at..it is a site that deals with homosexuality. www.exodus-international.org

And Nikki, one thing Matt forgot to mention in his post, don't bother responding to zzz.

My beagle's IQ is higher than his.

hehe yeah i question his motives but I will let others decide for themselves.

That being said, I enjoyed your analysis. Thank you.




Good advice. I don't want others who maybe don't understand to be mislead by him, though. It's one of the few things spiritual I felt I could comment on effectively.

and u should have that feeling for your husband. That is what God intended for us all!!!! to have that passion between a married couple.

Ok, but that was your definition of lust which you described as a "tool of the devil". So, is it a sin, or not? I'm not trying to argue, I really want to understand.

God gave us a healthy sex drive. We all can attest to that. But He wants us to keep it in the confines of marriage. To use it only with your husband/wife.

Lust is the devil takin advantage of this by temptation. basically he tells us, "hey you, God gave you this sex drive...but now He wants you to wait till your married...But wouldnt it just be so much better to use it now with say that person over there"

We have a sex drive to use with our wives/husbands...But the devil hopes to prey on that temptation to allow it to spread to others so that you begin to want to be with others and so forth

So it's sex drive in the confines of marriage to have dirty thougths about my partner, but it's lust and a sin if I have them about someone else?

I'm soooo screwed.

see no there is a difference...You should want to be with your husband. Bible makes it very clear that you and yoru husband are fine in that. But to sit there and lust about future events is completely different. It is very different with how your relationship is with yoru husband as to with someone else. With your husband you can act on your feelings. If you feel like yuou want to do something wit him. Do it!!! its not a big deal

but to sit there and lust after another guy/girl who you arent married to is wrong. Why? b/c you arent married to them. According to the Bible yall shouldnt ever be together. Do you see the difference?


As a side note, not that it pertains to you specifically which is why i waited till now to put it in...masturbation/pornography isnt ok ever..Not even if it is about ur significant other.

Nikki, sounds like you're struggling a bit.

The question is not whether you are sinning, you know you are.

The question is not whether you're "screwed", because you're not.

The question is whether at some point, before you pass, you can repent. The most pious man/woman sins their face off every day, and nobody can get into heaven without God's grace.

From listening to you, I don't think you're quite as lost as it seems. GL

Nikki-

If it makes you feel any better. I will admit, as a guy, lust is a serious issue for me. I struggle to stay away from porn, i struggle to not look at a woman and let my mind wander, and I struggle with some of the very low cut blouses that women wear these days. These are my struggles that sometimes lead to sin.

That being said, I've been a Christian since I accepted His forgiveness in high school. It is comforting to know that God forgives and sees past this part of me. The Bible says when we first believe, we "put on Christ", meaning God sees His son when he looks at us.

It is now my job daily, usually hourly, to try to stay true to God and not act on the things I would like to do, but instead run from the situations that cause me to sin.

This is why homosexuality is wrong. The whole genetic debate and "God made me this way" stuff just doesn't hold up and does not matter. I struggle just the same with the way God made me as a homo does with the way God made them. We all fall under the same request from God though, which is to love him and accept his gift and try to live the life he calls us to in the Bible.

Hope that helps.

I guess I just struggle with the injustice that homosexuals are supposed to live a life of celibacy, or have to be something they are not in order to get relief. There is huge injustice there. Yes, it's true that life isn't always fair, but damn!

there are in fact christian support groups for people who felt that homosexuality was the only way. yet they all now live normal heterosexual lives married and happy

well, it is only injustice if life is all about sex, which it isn't. at least it shouldn't be. not to minimize it, I'm sure that it is hard.

Actually, it is. See evolution vs not-evolution.

I don't know how to comment here without sounding inflammatory and this thread has so far been very civil so I think here is where we will just have to agree to disagree.

Ok, I can't totally hold my typing fingers here:

It isn't right to try and "convert" gay people. If God said everyone should be homosexual, if that were the scripture, would you choose sin, celibacy, or a homosexual relationship?

If God deemed that we must all be squirrels, would you grow fur?

Ok, you are going to comment and it's totally your right to do so, but I think it's best I stay out of this discussion further because, as I said before, I'm all about the love and I try not to be about anger on fcp.




So homosexuals should lead lives of celibacy? Could you do that?

I am sorry if thats how you took it i didnt mean it to be that way. What i was merely showing is that there are groups out there comprised of christians who were once homosexuals who were able to overcome that temptation.

It isnt right to convert gay people? why not? I would try to talk to gay people, straight people, tall people, small people, white black, mexican and so forth. Nobody shoudl be limited in who they share the gospel to. If you are a sinner then it is my duty to inform you of this. To let you know what awaits you in hell. I would hope ud be more offended by the person who wouldnt tell you of eternal hell b/c of some feature of urs they dont like

Your what ifs dont make much sense though and i think you said them in anger without thinking. If God said we were to all be homosexuals then we would all be homosexuals. What else coudl we do? Then again we wouldnt exist since up until recently homosexuals couldnt reproduce. If God said we were squirrels we woudl be squirrels not humans..

again nikki im not tryin to make this personal at all with you

I think that when you are having a discussion with people who are closed-minded and prejudiced, you shouldn't avoid an inflammatory conversation.

I am of the opinion that homophobics will be regarded, in say 50 years, the same way southern racists from the 1950s are regarded today - scum. I'm sorry to those of you who I offended with that, but hiding behind a Bible and using that as an excuse to allow yourself to fear and hate homosexuals is cowardly. Why don't you learn something about it first - it's genetic, it is NOT a choice people make.

Somebody CAN make a choice to ignore what they feel inside, and to pretend not to be gay. IMO this is as hard for them as it would be for you to marry a person of your own sex despite you being a heterosexual.






In case anybody is interested, I'm straight.....just in case you thought that being gay was the reason I feel so strongly about this.

haha the bolded made me laugh...

as for me being close minded? no. I am not scared of homosexuals. My uncle is gay and im not scared of him, know others that are homosexual and thats fine..BUT that is not an excuse to sin and be alright with it

but thanks for judgin me Tim

You mean the same way you are judging every homosexual in the world??


I did not mean that you personally are scum. Not every southern racist in the 1950s was scum, they were just unenlightened regarding the races.

Being gay or straight is no more a choice than being black or white. You just can't see it on the outside.


edit: check out some recent scientific studies into the causes of homosexuality, if you are interested. You will find that scientists are finding more and more evidence that gay men and women are born gay.

The bolded part of that post is the part I agree with. This is why we can't have this discussion.

I am bisexual. I have always been bisexual. I am as bisexual as you are heterosexual.




That's what I'm saying.

Yeah, and often times those "support groups" force them in to even deeper depression and even suicide.

First off, i am Christian (not that there's anything wrong with that), though i consider myself more agnostic than anything.

Personally, I don't care if anyone thinks homosexuality is wrong. In my opinion, that is YOUR problem. I know lots of gay people who are more kind, giving, etc. than other self proclaimed Christians some of whom are sexist, racist and out and out bad people a lot of the time (but they get a pass from the general population if they go to church every weekend). But everyone is free to think what they wish. Personally, i think most Christians who are anti-gay are hiding behind their religion to shield them from them realizing they're just homophobes. Again, people can think what they think--but when i see a schmuck walking down the street with a KKK shirt on, i think RACIST. So when i hear people talking about homosexuality being wrong or they need "help" or need to be "saved"--i think BIGOT. But that is the country we live in---we have the freedom to think what we wish. But it goes both ways.

The problem i have is when these views are set into legislation. Just because a book someone thinks is the word of God says you cannot do something doesn't give them the right to impose those views on others. This is NOT a theocracy. Our Constitution was drafted by those who were persecuted for religious reasons and there was a concious effort to make sure that this type of thing wouldn't happen again. Religous doctrine should NOT be the reason for discriminatory legislation.

There is no secular reason why gays shouldn't be able to get married (or unionized if the word "marriage" is so sacred). There is no rational reason why they shouldn't be able to adopt kids. There is no reason why they should be afforded the same rights as straight couples. These discriminatory actions are based upon prejudice and homophobia. Think what you wish, but keep your religion out of our nation's laws.


And going along with what tim said in the end of his post--i don't give a crap whether someone thinks i'm gay, straight, bi or whatever. It shouldn't matter. In fact, it doesn't.

So you are saying that scripturally God expects us to be heterosexual. I think this is what Paul is getting at, but I'm just not that way. When you say, "what else could we do?" you are coming from a completely heterosexual perspective. I'm not heterosexual, and God made me who I am. This is the dilemma I face when Paul's letter's to the people of Corinth are discussed.

Tim,

I'm sure you're the first one to tell people not judge others too. Since when is saying that giving into a temptation, in this case homosexuality, is equal to "fearing" someone. I'm not offended in the least by your statement. It does however reveal your own biases and prejudices against a view other than your own. Kinda hypocritical huh? BTW, I have had good friends who were gay, lived in the same building with them. So much for "theory" of homophobic.

Also Tim, We finally agree on something. Evolution vs Creation is fundamental to the rest of your view on life. If you believe you came from a creator, you see your life differently then if you believe you are the product of millions of years of mutations.

Nikki, to answer your question, if I had homophobic tenedecies, I would have to live a life of celebacy. Like I said earlier, I do struggle. If I followed every urge I had, I would have had many affairs. How is a homo sex drive different than my own urges? There are both not what God desires, and yet I live with the urge like every homosexual does.

Look, there are singles out there that are older and never married who hetero, and virgins. WHAT???? Is it possible? Of course it is not easy, but they followed God's call and His will.

Because, IMO, a homosexual couple is not 'giving in to temptation' any more than a heterosexual couple.



Fair enough. And yes, I guess you could say I am biased against homophobics, racists, etc.



You make a good point. These two word-views are hardly compatible, and they lead a person to regard many aspects of life in very different ways.

Do you have those urges when you see a guy? Well, a gay person sees a person of the same sex and has those urges and when they see person of the opposite sex, they don't have that urge. That is the difference. If a gay person who is in a committed relationship had urges about other people and didn't act on them, THAT would be similar to your situation.

The desire to share one's life, love, and intimacy with another human being is not just an "urge". It is a fundamental part of a human being's soul. You are allowed by God to act on your "urges" within the confines of marriage. Yet the homosexuals created by Him are not. Here is where I see a terrible injustice.

It makes me sad that anyone can look upon the love of two people and call it "wrong". It's love. Love is never a bad thing. We need more of it in this world. God may strike me down right here for putting this in writing, but so be it. Paul's scripture on this matter has bred much hatred throughout the centuries. People have been using God's name to hate for a long time and this scripture is responsible for much of it. I can't get behind that.

edit: i posted this when the thread was only one page long...i'll read the rest and maybe edit it further if need be.

i really appreciate the time and efforts matt.

i'm curious as to the meaning of "perverse" as it relates to effeminity. first, why are those two related? second, what does "perverse" imply? it seems that since sex can be had without the purpose of procreation, the bible allows people a pretty decent range of what is sexually allowed between a husband and wife. if perverse does not refer to homosexuality (since effeminity and homosexuality are explicitly not allowed), what does it refer to?

thanks,
daniel

This logic is so very flawed. God made me that way is not a valid reason to act on one's urges.

If it were then it would hold true for a murderer with murderous urges. "God made me the murderer I am so how can you ask me not to murder".

I am in no way comparing a homosexual to a murderer, but just can't keep reading the "God made me that way" posts without pointing out the flaw in that logic. It can be used for any urge of any kind.

Good luck in figuring all this out, becasue it certainly is no easy affair.

Since when is being gay just an "urge"? Have any of you straight guys had the urge to get in some guy's pants??

Yes it can. But here the argument means something different IMO. Imagine it is 1950 and a black man wants to eat in a whites-only restaurant. His argument for why he should be allowed in is "God made me this way. I am no different than you....a creature of God....I am neither lesser nor greater...we are the same."

Homosexuals should be allowed to engage in homosexual relationships without people berating them all day. They should be allowed to kiss on the street without people making comments and giving dirty looks. Why should it bother anybody else what they do, if it does no harm to others?

Here what i see is a problem with a lot of this line of reasoning used. People talk about homosexuality like it is a unique thing. Each one of yall look at your lives and i bet there is something in your life that you are more suseptible (sp?).

Some would say that people are more likely to drink (yet we tell them to not give into that urge)

some are more likely to be addicted to gambling...and we try to get them help for that

some are more likely to be addicted to drugs...we try to keep those urges down...


Heres the thing..there is something in everybodies life that we are more likely to give way to...I have mine and im sure yall have yours. Its a struggle not to give into those urges but you know what..we all work to supress those urges

Asking a self-declared homosexual or bisexual to resist the urges of homosexuality is like asking a Mexican to resist the urge to have dark skin.