2/4 10 handed.

I have A10o 2 off the button. I open for a raise, button re-raises, blinds fold.

Flop A K 2. I decided to check-raise with the plan of folding to a 3-bet. Is it ok?

against a straight forward player, I think that is great.

against a tricky/aggressive sob,
c/c to the river.


against a lot of players
c/c flop
c/c turn
b/f river. That way, QQ won't check behind.

i think the wa/wb (way ahead/way behind) line is best here.

I hate opening pots with ATo. I know you have to, but I really hate it. It's such a terrible hand.

check and call the flop and turn, then lead the river and fold to a raise.

[quote name='Absolute' date='Saturday, March 4th, 2006, 12:19 PM' post='875221'

check and call the flop and turn, then lead the river and fold to a raise.
[/quote]

I personally don't like the c/c the flop and turn and fold to a riase at all. Unless ,maybe, your apponent is really tricky or weak and you would have to show down your hand because he could have anything. But if he is weak then you are probably the favorite over most hands he would play and I would probably want to bet to the river and make him pay to play out is inferior hands.

Against a stright forward playing I like the check raise, fold to the three bet a lot. I would rather try to define where I'm at on the flop for 2 small bets than take it to the river for 5 small bets.

Also, calling gives you apponent the oportunity to draw out cheaper. If you are behind, you are way behind and catching an A or 10 probably isn't going to help. But if you are ahead, someone could catch two pair or a miracle Q or J for trips.

I would prefer going for a c/c on the flop and a c/r on the turn over calling the flop and turn. For the same number of bets, you can really put the presure on, representing a bigger hand with the check/raise on the turn (and making your opponent decide before getting another card to draw on the river). If he re-raises you on the turn, you can fold knowing you are dead for the same amount (5 small bets). If he only calls, then you are in fair shape and he probably has AQ or AJ at best and you will have to decide if he would have three bet pre-flop with AQ or AJ depending on your read of him. And he may even fold, now thinking that his AQ or AJ is drawing dead against the AK he thinks you have. And he would most likely fold most other things that and elimiate the potential to draw out on the river.

But yeah, what do I know.... I'm definitely no pro... that is just my two cents.

If he's behind, he's drawing to 2 or 3 outs. I have no problem letting him bet for me. I don't want to scare him off if he b/f's the turn. Let him bet until the river. That is the idea behind the wa/wb line.

- Zach

I can understand that... but I still like the check raise on the turn better. you get to see where you stand for the same mount of money. And if you are way ahead and he is going to call you down on your river bet, whos to say he won't call the check raise on the turn and a bet on the river.

If he is going to bet/fold the turn, then he is probably going to fold to a bet on the river, unless he catches his out on the river. So you are not going to get anymore money out if him with either play.

This is they way I see it.

Option 1: check/raise the flop, fold to a re-raise:
You are able to define your and for only 2 small bets, saving three small bets. But you never get to see the cards so you have to rely on your read.

Option 2: check/call the flop, check/call the turn, bet the river:
For 5 small bets you give him 2 cards to catch against you instead of only 1 card.

Option 3: check/call the flop, check/raise the turn:
For the same 5 small bets, you define your hand. You put your opponent to a decision against what you must think is a very strong hand and making him pay to draw. If he is ahead, he'll probably check raise and you can dump your hand for the same cost as Option 2. But you put more pressure on your opponent to fold, and you lower his drawing odds, making his call even worse than his bet on the turn. And if he is going to fold to the check/raise on the turn, then he is going to fold to the bet on the river (unless he caught his card to beat you).

So, if you are behind, Option 2 and 3 are going to cost you the same = 5 small bets

If you are ahead, Option 2 and 3 are going to win you at least the same number of bets, or your opponent might call the check raise, and maybe even the river. So you will win 5 or 6 small bets (from the flop on) with Option 2 or 3. But could possibly win 7 small bets from Option 3.

Also, I think Option 3 increases the likelyhood of causing your opponent to fold(possibly even fold the best hand) and win without a showdown.

He may decide to just call you down with a hand like AQ or AJ. But you still have some outs 10s to win, or pairing the board to tie.

I still think that Options 3 has better expectation than Option 2.

He is NEVER laying down AQ, AJ. You lose more when he goes into call down mode with these hands, because he is not aggressive enough to 3-bet them.

Do you play 2/4?

- Zach

sorry, can someone just give a quick outline of the standard WA/WB line?

c/c

c/c

b/f

No, but that is actually a good point....

I mostly play 5/10 and 10/20.

Any of these plays depends on your read of your opponent. I guess most 2/4 players may not be aggressive enough. If your opponent won't 3 bet a strong hand, then you can't define your hand by raising and c/c is probably a better idea.

Yeah, it's very level dependant. I really see your like working a lot better at higher levels.

- Zach

Btw, Welcome to the forums. We are starting to really boom in the strat forums.. good to see!

Thanks,

I've always liked DN, and been amazed by his play. I stumbled onto this site a while ago, but just resently starting browsing it a lot.

Looking to improve my game like everyone else, been kind of stuck at the 5/10 and 10/20 games. not doing bad, but can't seem to make any real headway... always up and down... not every consistant. But hey, that's why I'm here.

Thanks for the welcome.

PS Please don't take my comments as argumentative. I'm just defining my line on the issue, and welcome the feed back and contradictory opinions. If I'm wrong, I want to be proven wrong with good rational. (And I think you are right... in the 2/4 games, players are probably going to only call down AQ or AJ and not fold or 3 bet. Learning already.....)

There are always spirited arguments between posters here. It's all for the best. So, don't worry about that. The best thing you can do is post in every thread and read other players thoughts. Post a ton of hands too. There are some 5/10, 10/20 players who read this board a lot too, so you should get some help, if you post some hands. We are all here to learn.

- Zach