I'm not converting anything as this is a straight forward and easy to read pot.

Hero is rewarded the 85 of diamonds in the SB.
UTG (donkey) limps. Button (star player) limps. Hero limps. BB (your mom) raises, everyone calls.

Flop comes

4 :icon_suit_club: 6 :icon_suit_diamond: J :icon_suit_spade:


Check, bet, or JFarrell this badboy?
Keep in mind the spirit of the party 5/10 6max game please.

open push.

ok, I'll play along.

I thought 5/10 was apggressive, but then again, I'm talking out of my ass.

I check.

there's more I hope.

I'd bet if all always call and no one raise.

I don't see benifit of betting out, overriding the chance to draw at our strong draws in good pos to c/r the turn.

Edit: And callnig back 2 bets, gotta see action and all that

OK.
I bet because thats what I do.
the BB raised (as expected) and it was folded to me. I called and the 8 of hearts rolled off on the turn.

Now what do you do?
the BB is very bad. he plays like someone who just sat down with zero knowledge of the game and clicks buttons. anyone who has played party is familiar.

check, raiser will bet and call/raise if one or two of your other limpers call, if not fold.

lead out when a 7 or an 8 hits and figure out where you are.

OK. This would be fine in a 1/2 full ring game.
I'm not betting or continuing in this hand because I think I have the best hand.

Then fold to his pf raise.. this is short handed, he could be on a complete bluff/ overcards.. give yourself a chance to win the hand or don't call a raise

lol ok!

I think we have a decent chance to win a huge pot against these weak players.
By betting into the BB, you obviously were lookng to improve your winning chances, while sacrificing gains on later streets.

Were you hoping for HU vs this bad player, or for many callers, assuming you know BB raises here a lot?

Win / Win huh? ok... am I on to something?

I'm less comfortable HU/OOP and just put more value on chasing the gut shot/bdfd and c/r the field.

I c/r - call the turn as played.

If 3-bet c/f river UI. My Mom won't 3-bet the turn with some 8's beat.

By check raising, i'm representing a jack while adding value to my gutter, and hoping to take it on the turn if not even the flop. If someone hit, or BB/limpers have a legit hand, i want to find out now. BB 3 bets a check raise w/a hand, calls/folds on flop and folds the turn w/o one. As for the other two, they will define their hands for us here. You set yourself up to take it outright on the turn when a blank falls for all involved on the turn, or win a huge hand from top pair/over pair when a 7 falls. As i've seen it, top pair isn't going anywhere in this spot regardless of BB's raise if you were to bet into him. I'd rather spend a SB to rep a strong hand and dump it quick/take a shot on the turn than to maybe get heads up OOP with 8 high against an aggressive opp.

Not that i don't see your line as well, but this is a strategy forum and that's my strategy....

Thanks for the welcome Actuary, nice to meet you

See, I guess I'm shaky on the logic... it appears to go something like this:

"I want very badly to be OOP with a weak hand against the worst player at the table".

I agree with your first assessment, Actuary, betting this flop is no good.

Absolute, if the guy is too aggressive, how is the turn and river anything but check/call, check/call?

Jeff

You're obviously confident that BB will raise the flop, blow away the limpers, and then fold to a turn donk or c/r. That's quite a read.

Well the limpers will call BB's bet, but if i wanted to play 85 in this spot to try and win the hand then sure.

I personally check/fold the flop regardless of the action.

Betting the flop was purely to induce a BB raise and get heads up with him.
I think I can follow carefully and outplay him on the turn and river so that this situation is +EV for me in the long run.

There are just as many cards that I can be aggressive with on the turn as there are cards I will have to fold to on the turn.

I would check raise this turn against a bad player all day long.
Check calling this holding on this board against a bad player in 5/10 6max is terrible.

no you don't!

Gut shot to the nuts on a rainbow flop in great pos relative to BB.
And pot 4 BB's already.

you jest.


*********

hmmm... maybe I was on to sometthing, or I'm smoking same stuff as Absolute

I didn't say he was aggressive. I said he was bad.

Too aggressive is often good in 6max. If he were an aggressive player I would check/fold the flop.


My object here is to get heads up with a bad player on a favorable board.

Anyway, lets not misassociate bad with aggressive.

Check/folding would be a mistake unless it's two bets back at'ya. The pot's laying 8:1 before any other bets even go in.

WHAT THE HELL AM I MISSING?

C/F THE FLOP IF HE'S AGGRESSIVE?

you have 4 outs to the nuts!

I must be missing something.




I call 2 back.
Implied odds are insane
Some RIO if board pairs, but equity huge if 4 nut outs hit

I don't want to come off as saying this is the "right" way to play.

What I am displaying is an example of how to set up and and extract money from a very bad player in an aggressive game.

Sure, he sometimes has hands he will call all the way down with, and I think I can make good folds on bad turn and river cards here.

The object for me here is to put him in a tough situation with an overcard hand on the turn.

Maybe I'm wrong.

I just wanted to start a discussion on isolating and defeating bad players with weak/marginal hands. (Something you have to do to be a big winner in these 6max games)



I agree.
I spoke too quickly.
If he were "too aggressive", I wouldn't lead the flop.

i wouldn't fold this hand on the flop at all.

I could see a call if everyone called BB bet on the flop, but not for me.
I'm not chasing a 4 outer here, though i would doubt all 4 7s are in the deck. And I would hate to see an 8 hit and have to make another decision on the turn OOP.

EDIT: my point is, i'm either check/folding or check/raising, not check calling.

I would call 2-back as well, even though it's close (and raise wars make me sad, unless I'm one of the combattants). I'm just trying to 'splain why check-folding is so clearly wrong.

Absolute: How often do your pair outs have to be good for this play to pay off? I had a beer at lunch and can no longer do math. There's a ton of RIO on a turned 8 if BB (or anyone still around) has a couple of unmatched overs.

call him down. I'm letting him hang himself. THe board has some draws on it, so idiot boy may have hit it, or have some piece of it, but, here I like my second pair now, so I want to see showdown as cheaply as possible

I have to say, along with everything posted in the limit forum, I disagree with all of the advice Valet has given.

- Zach

A lot of what people are saying in this thread makes no sense.





What is a bad player?

Someone who will bet/fold the turn with something you have beat?

Or someone who will bet/call with the pot laying him almost exactly enough to call?

It's difficult for the villain to misplay most hands in his range that are than worse than yours at the moment.


The only better hands that could possibly fold are 99 and 10 10.


Given his raise out of the blinds, his flop raise and turn bet, you're more likely behind than ahead.

And if you are behind, you're putting in more bets than you have to. Maybe even 3.


So again, why are we check/raising this turn?




Fallacious reasoning. You cannot "doubt" that the sevens are left in the deck as a rationale why it's less likely to hit. We have no more reason to believe a 7 is removed than any other card in the deck. There are 4 out of 47 unknowns in the deck that give us a draw ot the nuts.

You are getting WAY MORE than sufficient odds to peel on the flop. ESPECIALLY if he's aggressive. That means your pair outs are more likely good too.

Also - pairing cannot be worse than missing. Because if you call or bet, it implies that you think doing so is better than check/folding; like you would if you didnt pair. If you're so certain that he has a bigger pair, then check/fold. The reason you dont check/fold is because you think one of the other options is better now that you have a pair of 8's.


Flop:

I check/call 1 if there are callers between.

I check/fold to 2 bets.

I check/raise if the BB's bet is folded to me and i think that he both raises quite a few hands out of the BB and is not willing to show down ace high here.

Turn:

I check/call an 8 turn given the earlier action against virtually all types of opponents.

River:

A blank river depends a lot more on the opponent.
bet/fold, check/fold or check/call.



Oh yeah. And betting the flop because he's aggressive (in the hopes of getting him to raise) is so mind boggling trashy. You want to isolate yourself against better hands, for more bets, when you're either a moderate underdog or a HUGE underdog? I dont get it.

check/calling this flop is easily the worst possible line. I have a strong hand in an aggressive short handed game. I have 11.5 outs in front of a preflop raiser who is almost always going to raise and plays poorly post-flop. Leading this flop is the master play in a fast aggressive game where you have to be creative to pick up pots. It shows interest in the pot and leaves me more options on the turn.

I would NEVER make this play in a 3/6 game. When I began playing 5/10 shorthanded on Party, I realized very fast that you cannot play ABC poker and be a big winner. In situations where you have a strong drawing hand on a safe board against a bad player, you need to be aggressive.

Anyway, what you are telling me is that I want to play passive poker in a shorthanded aggressive game in front of a bad player? Keith is right, I could let him hang himself, but I can also pull on the rope while he hangs.

Upon further discussion of the hand, Keith agreed with my turn c/r line.

I tend to pass up a better chance to win the pot, for a chance to win a bigger pot.
In these aggressive games, I suspect your chances to draw profitably are cut down, though

given the good pot size already, I see your point.

and, as stated, I like the turn c/r as well.

Giving yourself 11.5 outs on the flop is pretty short sighted of you as is considering your hand a strong holding. While on occasion you will have that in many cases you will have only 4 for your straight and 1.5 for your bdfd. This pot is 4 handed, one of the other 3 played could very easily hold a J.


Really this entire hand just seems like a perfect example of why donks take longer to go broke then they should. His being a bad player has caused you to spew into a pot that realistically you are not going to win all that often. (of course that turn bails you out)

And yea i'm sure you can kill 5/10 sh playing good solid poker but no need to get into that currently.

11.5 outs?

Did you mistake one of the suits for a diamond? You dont have a flush draw.



What you're saying makes no sense.


Could you define what you mean by "bad" player? What percentage of his hands does he raise out of the blinds? Will he make tight folds postflop?

Being bad doesnt mean he wont ever pair his cards. He will quite often. And so will other people on the table.