so, I recently hit 10k hands at 2/4 in my new database..had a few thousand elsewhere. And I've ever posted all my stats. Being one of a few True successful SLAP's here, I was hoping to get critiques and share a different perspective!

I don't understand the new fangled ways to post images..so I'll type them in.

total hands: 10,484
VPIP: 22.68
VP SB: 32.5

Folded to Steal
SB: 78% 64/82
BB: 49% 60/123
HU: 46% 39/85

Att to Steal: 25.1, 132/526

W$WSF: 37%
WtSD%: 33%
W$SD%: 58%

BB/100: 3.20

Raised preflop%: 8.65%
Limp/Call Re-raise prelop: 1 time out of 10,484 (wow?)

AF:
Flop: 1.41
Turn: 1.55
River: 1.26

Fold to River Bet: 40%

any other stats you'd like to see?
Any suggestions welcomed.
"get more aggressive post flop", notwithstanding

Hmmm...

W$WSF: 37%

37% is high, I think. Good work. I'm at like 34 in 2/4, 13K hands.

WtSD%: 33%

Makes sense based on passivity post flop. I'm at 30, and I'm considered a TAG.


W$SD%: 58%
Again, mine is 55% at 2/4. This seems high for someone who sees a ton of showdowns. My guess is you did quite well over these 10000 hands.

Raised preflop%: 8.65%

Does anyone else raise more? Mine is hovering around 9.5-10%. In the 2600 hands I have on you, you've raised >10% preflop, but that includes all the levels (not 6 max).

Limp/Call Re-raise prelop: 1 time out of 10,484 (wow?)
I'm at 3/13000.... makes sense... limping and calling two cold back? Never a good sign...

Folded to Steal
SB: 78% 64/82
BB: 49% 60/123
HU: 46% 39/85

What are your BB/100 in the blinds stats like? My numbers are WAY higher than this... of course, these positional samples are TINY. I may not be defending my blinds enough, apparently.

Fold to River Bet: 40%

Mine is like 48... interesting...

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I'm sure my analysis doesn't help, but it's interesting to compare stats and see the different styles.

- Zach


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Wow. The only thing my stats have in common is the limp/raise number. I also did it once.

for comparison....

VPIP: 19
PFR: 11.5
Flop AF: 4.2
Turn AF: 3.7
River AF: 1.8

and then for some weird reason,

WTSD: 30.3
W$SD: 52


My WTSD and W$SD are both lower. I'd expect them to have an inverse relationship....


I defend by BB more, but the SB less. And i attempt to steal much more often.

as noted 3.20 BB /100.
Looking at my most recent 13k hands before these, the stats are almost identical, with a higher wr ,though. But VPIP, pfr, AF, W$Sd$, WtSD%, all very similar. I knew these stats were repesentative of my norm, so I figured it was worthwhile posting them


BB/100
in BB: (0.11)
in SB: (0.12)

I accidentally posted incorrectly earlier, as I was counting 2/4 6 Max in those SB/BB WR, in another thread.


edit to add: I don't see a ton of showdowns, I fold a lot of flops and turns

your pfr seems low for your style

you could add more isolation plays

My VPIP is round the same, but I raise about 11% of my hands. Not that it's right, but I think 8% is a little low for your range.

Post flop aggression needs to be higher, but I think the flop aggression is the only one that's really "off."

Do you raise for free cards enough?

I also have a much higher attempt to steal statistic.

of course I knew that would be mentioned.
If I had 500k hands with same stats, and 3+ WR, you still say that?

I do think I miss some raises for value in multiway pots with Top Pair 3rd kicker type hands

I'm not sure which hands I"m not raising preflop, that I could find. But I like the idea of iolating more. I'll look for that.

The wierd thing is that your win rate is so high it just fits into the "whatever works" kind of thing, and it seems to work very well for you.

I would say that as you move up in limits, it would be good to develop a habit of being more aggressive, but that's not to say that being relatively passive at these limits post flop won't yield a winning style, because it's obvious through your stats that it does.

I would say that when you plan on moving up you make a somewhat brief stop at 2/4 or 3/6 shorthanded and develop a comfort level with being more aggressive.

The isolating suggestion is also a good idea.

when i get home, i should look at my SH stats

i hope my flop AF is <4

my expericne so far at 6 MAx, WR over well over 4 BB/100 and AF < 2.
I raise more pf, 11% and see more hands 24%. This includes .5/1, 1/2 (very donktastic), and only a few hundred at 2/4. I can definately see how less calling down and more betting may come into play at higher 6 Max, hopefully I'll recognize that, or just see if this keeps working

Taking all 50k hands for full I have, these Stats/WR's are very repesentative, if not lower, as far as WR. I just pulled out of my worst 4k hands stint. 4k hands w/o surpassing my prior total won amount. So this 10k sample is pollutted!


As noted, I posted this to show a different side, and to get some warnigs/advice on how to play this way, and anticipations for next level.

One good thing: In last 45k hands, biggest downswing: 85BB. Probably attribute that to a more passive style.

On the W$SD% it's high, but if you think about it, you all are winning a larger percentage of the hands you win, pre-showdown, I'd guess. I have to win more at showdown for all the times I don't win before SD.

I love stats.

OK. At 3/6 my flop AF is 3.3. This could be exaggerated since I also play some ultra-short handed.

Is a 4.2 flop AF bad, or might it be attributable to a lower VPIP (in my case)?

without seeing specific hands it's really hard to tell if strange stats are the result of bad play, but one thing that inflates aggression numbers is folding some hands that you are getting odds to peel.

yeah..I need the "when folds hand stat", too
I'm sure I tend to peel more rather than fold as well, lowering the AF.
That's a result of the semi-loose preflop calls

im rather surprised that none of your PFR stats are higher than 10.... mine never drop under 13 and thats over like 55k hands....

ok, my when folds.

never 14
preflop 72
flop 7.4
turn 4.1
river 2.0

So, do I peel flop a lot? If so that can explain my lower AF, conssitent with my looser VPiP. Or maybe I do jsut raise a lot less on flops.

well you are raising more on the turn then the flop, i think that's most of it.

mine folds:

never 12
preflop 75
flop 8.2
turn 3.2
river 1.3

here's the turn raising thing. I guess it's not really a problem though?

I also peel more and fold turn proportionally more, so that ups my AF.
So I may not actually raise turn more.

ahh, touche

What game is this at?

You must be getting hit in the face with the deck to be 3.4 with these stats.

Raise more pre-flop.
Call less. Bet raise and fold more.

Very strange stats. I don't think I had very many Semi loose semi passive players in my database at all (sw)


On the 6max stats, it seems like the common winning line is something like 28/18/3

Absolute, dude be more open minded.

You don't know how "excited" i am that you are posting on this because I posted to show "counter intuitive" stats/results.

Let me also be clear.
My WR thru 40k hands before this database was 4 BB, thru .5/1 1/2 (blah) and a little 2/4 full. So, perhaps I"m being hit in the face with the deck for 50k hands now.

Sure, there's some good var in there too, perhaps, or maybe, I play well, just differently than "ideal" stats.

These numbers came right after a 4k even run, my worst stretch yet.

I don't have the millions of hands some of you do, but I refuse to think I have to be 20/12/2.3 to maximize my gains.

thanks!

oh, and I do listen to advice. i was hoping to get some in the context of my style. but there aren't very many winning players who play this way.

2/4 may be the last level I can get away with it, who knows.

I don't mean to insult. Sometimes I just come off that way.
I am not one to rely on PT stats. But I have always paid close attention to the aggression factor.

Your stats in no way indicate poor play. They actually indicate very solid play, which is exactly why you are winning at 2/4. Good players who don't make big mistakes will beat the 2/4 all day long. You don't have any obvious leaks from what I have seen.

But I do think you should really work on finding more bets and raises on the turn and river especially before you move up limits. You will probably get away with it at 3/6 too, but as you move up levels you will encounter MANY more games with creative and aggressive opponents.

What hands are you not raising pre-flop that you think you should?
Do you feel like you are calling down too often?
Are you check raising enough turns?

Also, we are still working from a relatively small sample size.

I am just thinking ahead for you. When you move up, or venture in to 3/6 and 5/10 6max, you need to be very well accustomed to a very aggressive style of play.

yeah, I'm thick skinned and I know your intent well enough that i won't be offended.

I think my W$SD% certainly indicates I don't call down too much, no?
Or, maybe you mean "See showdowns; but c/r and bet more before you do"

I have a hang up: I hate pumping pots I lose. Don't we all, yeah. lol But my style evolved from that, and so far, it's worked. I don't chase with bad odds.

I am working on finding turn and river raises.

My pfr range is pretty wide, especaiily in LP, but I don't 3-bet a lot of hands that you might, and that keeps my pfr lower, I think. I may over value set value and under value my ability to take a pot down post flop with pos on a EP raiser, for example.


ty for any tips.
If I told you I was playing 2/4 with 700+ BB's you'd go ape shit right?
ok, I won't.

Nah, you're right.

19/11/2.5 is better.



You gambler, you.

1,200 should be like a bare minimum!

This is an important point. I knew you'd make one eventually, Actuary

Seriously, you hit the nail on the head. The fact is that EVERY style has advantages and disadvantages. TAA, for example, gets more value out of made hands and loses more when their opponent makes a hand. SLAP gets less value of made hands and loses less to their opponents made hands. And so on.

I believe the thinking behind being more TAG than SLAP is that if you play correctly pre-flop and post-flop, then you're more likely (on average and over time) to have a better hand than your opponent. So betting aggressively gets you the value you deserve or, on rare occassion, gets your opponent to fold a better hand.

Having thought about this a fair amount, I doubt there's really very much difference between a TAG, SLAP, LAG, etc, that (and this is key) plays well post-flop. We all have our comfort zones, and I think that if you're a winning player in your comfort zone, it's very likely to be more detrimental to your winrate to leave it than any additional gains (perceived or otherwise) you might get from altering your style to a more "correct" one.

My 2BB,
Jeff

You can safely play 2/4 6max with your BR.
Nothing wrong with not moving up levels till you are comfortable. My first run at limit holdem, I went broke because I tried to play 3/6 6max without the bankroll for it. That was years ago though.


If thats the case though, you should spend your extra BBs bankrolling my broke ass.
(I haven't been able able to play as all my money and previous winnings is funding me and paying bills while I study to take a test to get my life/health insurance lisence.)

Anyway, just kidding.

Good luck when you do move up.

gonna move this into the general strat section. IMO stats posts should go there